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Dutch, I entertained for a moment the thought that you are a fraud. Then I recalled a video I saw a while back with an interview with Dr. Ben Carson. (I've mentioned him before, google the dude if you don't remember) I found it disturbing on so many levels. Dr. Carson has also spoken at The Crystal Cathedral, and when he's not doing brain surgery, which he does quite well, he does the rounds of religious right and Republican focussed talk shows.
You won't hear him talking about systemic racism in America. His role, and he does it very well, is to give comfort and solace to the privleged white establishment. He is typical of a handful of persons of colour I've seen doing this, totally ideologically assimilated and very useful to the power elite. All problems are individual, and none can't be solved except through faith, good character, and the pulling up of the bootstraps.
Dutch, I've got to believe you are a great person because of the work you do - you have to believe in a future for the kids.
It's just a bit much to ask us to forget the transformation of the entire south from Democrat (an outcome of the Civil War and a Republican president on the winning side), to Republican, when Civil Rights instituted by Democrats became a reality.
Keep up your good work, but keep grounded.
p.s. You have put your finger on the situation I'm afraid, oldgoat.
Remind,
I do agree with you with for the most part. However a new system maybe a bit optimistic. Perhaps we can change the one we have to better reflect the needs of all. When issues of race arises it tends to be an all of nothing scenario.
I prefer optimism and change then trying to start all over again.
Thank you maysie for indicating that youth that are worked with and mentored are not colleagues, I was going to indicate such, but was focused upon getting at what he meant about what he was protecting black youth from in respect to your words..
Dutch,
When changes are made to a system, it becomes a new system, by the very changes that were made.
When women were declared humans and got to vote, the political voting system, and life, became a new system, yes there were and are elements of the old that exist, but nonetheless it was a new system and way of being.
When slavery was abolished, life in the USA became a new system. And again elements of the old exist and still exist, but again nonetheless, it is a new system.
Just because people cannot see a definite end and a beginning does not mean that a system has not changed and has become something else.
I think the fear factor at work, and blockages, in this aspect, is when people believe that abrupt changes and abrupt beginnings/endings have to happen for change to occur, and thus they do nothing.
In reality change is a process.
Maysie, thank you for clearing up your stance.
But I will give you one piece of advice. You can't go into high schools in Detroit with 70% drop rates beating the "down with the white establishment drums". As true as it maybe it harms more of these students then you realise. 70% drop out rate amongst black students! We are forced to find a better way while keeping these kids in school and motivated. Believe me it's tough with people like oldgoat around. Yes I do consider them colleagues, research has proven from the organisation I work for when students look up to you as a work partner and/or colleague and/or mentor they tend to follow. It may not be what your Canadian social degree taught you but it's what works here in the states.
Oldgoat, I don't know what your going on about but I put this challenge. Come with me to these high schools around the States and just try and speak your verbal diarrhea. These kids will hand you your a@@ and send you packin back to KKKanada. Don't ever refer to 300 million people as KKK members.
G. Victor, thanks for your words. I'm afraid it's not about being grounded but optimistic. It's all we've got.
Remind, I think you agree with me. I think? Change is a process that will take time. That's all I was trying to say.
I like to think of Canadians as the wishful thinkers. Easy to bash Americans while sitting pretty in Canada. At the same time doing nothing for anyone.
Pierre Trudeau days are long over.....time for something new Canada.
No, actually Dutch, I do not.
Ok you don't then. Whether you think a change makes something new or a modified version of the original is relevant. It's the change that's important. Not your agreement or being right.
For future reference, Dutch, I am never "right", I am left, and either correct, or incorrect, or somewhere in between correct, or incorrect.
And I see you added to your comments in post #66.
In respect to your new comments on Canada, and Canadians, I will say it is about as ignorant, as your comments about maysie and old goat are.
I will also add, not all Canadians think of the Trudeau years as a good thing, and want to keep that presence around. Apparently your existence in Canada was a narrow one, if it ever existed.
It is obvious to me that class allows many POC to rise above the everyday oppression of the poor people of colour. It seems to me that teaching children that America is a classless society is as dangerous as spewing the myth that Canada is a society free of prejudice.
What is with this recent influx into babble of individuals who position themselves as "native informants?"
perhaps other ploys are not working any longer here and they are bargaining on our tolerant good nature? :D
.
Lots of people don't know what I'm going on about, so you're in good company. I never said anything about the KKK, and I personally tend not to drag the KKK or Nazis into debates as I believe it to reflect a weak debating style.
I think I'll pass on that challenge, because you're right. I've spent a lot of time working with young people, and worked for a number of years in High Scools in Scarborough with a very high black population, and most of the schools I worked in were seen as pretty tough. The kids I worked with were seen as high risk for failing which is why I was involved. Now in dealing with these kids, no I did not refer to systemic social issues, probably at all. I dealt with my kids as individuals and discussed their individual issues and what they felt they might best do to get by. If any societal issues came up it probably would have been in the context of a history or social studies class, and if they were talking about their experiences as KOC (kids of colour), I would probably mainly just listen. HOWEVER, I really don't think I'd be good at what I was doing then or what I do now without a background understanding of issues of systemic racism, privlege and colonialism and power imbalance.
This is not a classroom, but a discussion forum where broader social issues are discussed.
ETA: You're allowed to say ass, even to me, and I join you in being generally annoyed at some people's use of the triple K to make a clever point. I just sort of pass on it because life's too short to bother.
Many blacks in America look up to Canada and our policies. But as rabble.ca has proven today, we still have aways to go. I'm sure most of the people here who questioned my color or what I do are white. That's the truth about racism. Whites deciding what is racist and what policies apply. How shameful :(
All you who attacked me are part of the problem, not the solution. In real life you wouldn't stand a chance with your attitudes. Keeping attacking the minorities and the work "we" try to do. Cause you know how best to tackle racism.
As Carter hinted at, alot of whites are racist and don't even know it. That's what he was saying, let the truth be told.
Ok Oldgoat, your attitude is of a complete ass. White guy trying understand racism from the white eyes. That does NOT work. Period. Which high school in my old hood would that be? I'm curious how a man with your attitude is even aloud around children.
On this we can agree, and I stated so even, above, long before you entered this discussion.
Again, Canadians, spell color like this colour.
Attacked you? Sir, respectfully, you did and are doing the attacking, which makes your points less than credible.
That's pretty close to what Karl Marx said.
Bordon, T Eaton, Midland (not there anymore), Wexford (The Upper Canada College of Scarborough and a very different experience) as well as a non-school based programme in an old house on Galloway Rd.
Actually I got along with the kids reasonably well. Helped make me a better forum moderator.
They're the only eyes I got so I do the best I can.
(I note with approval as an old child care worker that my 'attitude' is that of a complete ass, and not that 'I' am a complete ass. such nuances are important
)
oldgoat is as fair as they (we) come, Dutch. Sorry some folks got your back up. Certainly, as oldgoat said, you don't talk to the kids about systemic anything - just about them as individuals - or one might as well go walking.
But could you not admit, here - just a teensy amount of racism and classism within the context of the political economy of capitalism has put those kids in their marginalized situation? The objective description of their (and your) situation?
Oldgoat,
People like you are a big part of the problem. The know-it-alls on racism. You haven't got a clue what racial discrimination feels like.
How would you? Am I right? Cause you worked with some black kids in Scarbourgh that makes you the white Martin Luther King?
Well, I can always have a dream... (sorry)
Anway, I'm white. I'm whiter than Pat Boone's ass on a slice of wonder bread. I grew up around Lawrence and Yonge and have race privlige, class privlege, I'm cute, and despite every effort as a teen to totally fuck up my life I ended up educated and living on a street not unlike where I grew up. That's how privlige works. But, I try with a little help from my friends to understand things.
I just want to say I think what you are attributing to me goes a bit beyond what I've actually said. I don't think what I've said really justifies your negative take on me, but it's a free country. (for me, anyway)
george, respectfully no one got his back up, he put his own back up, and attacked apparently for the sake of attacking.
Living proof that no matter the colour of the skin, asshats abound, everywhere.
Let's not call a person of colour an asshat for talking about his experience thereof. Especially in the anti-racism forum which is where I'm moving this. Dutch's take on life is a different one than we generally see around here, but it's a discussion worth having.
Dutch, maybe you could get your back down a bit.
Not fair to move this thread imv, as it is almost done, and it was about Jimmy Carter, but have at it, as I am outta here.
And I was speaking specifically to his unwarranted attacks, and not to his "experiences".
'k
I'm done with you oldgoat. You have no clue what life is really like do you. White person born in a white world and still f@cks it up?!? You have lots to be proud of.
And you try and educate me on racism? Feel lucky to be born white, you'll need it.
I'm off this site. As Chris Rock put. If it's white, then it's alright! It's must be your life moto and the moto of this site.
Bigots....
Not really, Dutch. But I've seen it played out in this way many times. Feeling of helplessness remains - damned shame doesn't quite describe it.
"Feel lucky to be born white,"
WTF?
Well.. not going to be a fan I guess.
We can carry on.
Hahahaha. Sorry but wow, I doubt that he has a clue how much internalized racism he has. Maysie a racistÉ Oh that`s a hoot!
Ghislaine, absolutely.