sex worker attacked in absentia.......
From: Policy Action Research List/Liste politique action recherche
[mailto:PAR-L@LISTSERV.UNB.CA] On Behalf Of martin dufresne
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:00 AM
To: PAR-L@LISTSERV.UNB.CA
Subject: [PAR-L] Just what is going on at rabble.ca?
Yesterday, a woman posted on the feminism forum of the
http://rabble.ca/babble website a reminder of Canadian legislation in regard
to child abuse reporting.
She was responding to two accounts of 12-yr old girls being prostituted, one
of them from the age of 9, the other 10, and described by frequent poster
Susan Davis as a < sex worker >!
"Infosaturated" wrote :
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Every single adult who knows this is happening to a child and doesn't report
it shares the guilt for what is happening to her from that day forward.
http://www.child-abuse-effects.com/duty-to-report.html
In Canada, if someone knows of or suspects that a child is being abused,
that person has a legal obligation to report the known or suspected abuse.
Failure to report can result in charges being laid, as well as a fine of up
to $10,000....
All of us must take responsibility when we suspect abuse is taking place,
not only from a legal standpoint, but from moral and ethical obligations as
well.
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Do you find this appeal to our collective responsibility excessive?
Well, they were painted as a personal attack.
"Infosaturated" - a survivor of incest, rape, and prostitution - was
repeatedly insulted ("you suck") and baited by Susan Davis, promoter of
decriminalized brothels in Canada, and then she, not Davis, was suspended
without explanation from the feminism forum by Rabble's paid "moderator"
Michelle, who cut short the thread, making any response to her decision
impossible.
I suggest you read this incredible exchange for yourself (while it is still
on-line) at
http://www.rabble.ca/babble/feminism/un-dutch-try-defend-abject-failure-libe
ralization-prostitution-laws
I realize that some people are deeply committed to a full decriminalization
of brothels, pimps and johns, but is a sad day indeed on any feminist forum
when a survivor of prostitution and incest can be treated in this manner for
reminding us of our responsibility to try and protect children from the sex
industry.
Questions can be addressed to Rabble's current owner:
Kim Elliot
rabble.ca
Suite 400, 215 Spadina Avenue
Toronto, ON
M5T 2C7
rabble.ca was launched in 2001 with the help of the following founding folk
and organizations:
The Atkinson Foundation
Doris Anderson
Margaret Atwood
Maxine Rosa Baines
Dr. Elaine Bernard
British Columbia Teachers' Federation
Martha and George Butterfield
Canadian Auto Workers
Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Canadian Union of Public Employees
Duncan Cameron
Kim Cameron
Cecil Ross Foundation, Ontario
Centre for Media Alternatives - Quebec 2001 Centre for Social Justice
Chinese Canadian National Council Common Front Against the WTO Cool Women
Council of Canadians Ann Curry-Stevens Dr. Margrit Eichler Ruby & Edwardh
Doris & Al Jantzi David Langille Dr. Neil & Marilyn McLeod Barry McPeake
Rick Mercer Rona Moreau Dr. Henry Morgentaler Winnie Ng
PAR-L: Policy, Action, Research
Marion Pollack
Public Service Alliance of Canada
David Rapaport
Alvin & Glenna Rebick
Judy Rebick
Terra Rebick
Laurell Ritchie
Kikelola Roach
Wey Robinson
Mark & Tonya Surman
David Suzuki & Tara Cullis
Don Tapscott
and several anonymous donors
I sure hope that some of them share our concern.
Martin Dufresne
A couple of people forwarded that to me too this morning. I didn't post it here because normally, I don't like people posting stuff from other lists here.
But I would like to respond that Martin misrepresented me personally, and rabble.ca as well, on this list, AND he suggested that people contact our founders (a number of whom are current funders) based on that misrepresentation.
I'm consulting with the publisher and the other mods about it now. That's all I'm going to say about it at the moment. I may have more to say about it later.
i am completely offended. this i believe is also an attempt to undermine any potential funding opportunities for pro decrim sex workers organizing. it is a cowardly attack on those who do not share martin's opinion in particular against me, an active sex worker and one of those martin professes to want to protect. i just am in complete shock. pretty low brother.
not like i am funded anyway.....
Before I am thrown under the bus in typical Rabble fashion, I need to point out that I did not in any way suggest that PAR-L readers contact Rabble's funders. I merely listed Babble founders to point out that Rabble is an important media for the progressive community and that its decisions reflect on a lot of folks. Indeed, PAR-L is on that list of founders, hence my choice of that medium.
My critique of Infosaturated's mode of expulsion stands.
Martin has misrepresented not only the actions of the moderators, but the entire exchange; particularly in regards to Ms. Davis, who actually was seeking help with the situation.
Given that she is neither a lawyer nor trained in social work, I think Ms. Davis' actions in the circumstances were not only defensible, they were highly commendable. IMO, Martin owes both Susan Davis and rabble.ca a very public apology.
People who read the PAR-L list regularly (I used to, but it just got to be too much for me) will know that a similar debate has gone on there for a long time, so at least some of the readers would be pretty clued in as soon as they read that message from martin.
Y'know, just about any of us who post around in the 'sphere may from time to time mention things that are going on in other places -- on the Merkin blogs I know best there's a lot of cross-fertilization -- but I think that most people try to respect their memberships in the group they happen to be talking to at the time. And of course everyone is always entitled to private conversations about anything. But the PAR-L list isn't exactly private -- that's a sizeable list of academic and professional Canadian feminists, and anyone can join.
Just my $0.02 (CAN), but I think that was a distinctly uncollegial thing to do, especially the call to contact rabble.ca's funders. I also don't think that most of us feel very comfortable with the dabbling in accusations of illegal behaviour that went on and that continue in that notice. I just don't think that babble and babblers are equipped to cope with that.
What about defamation? martin and susan are both using their real names and martin in implying breach of the law in a very public place to quite a few people.
Martin, it seems to me from your post that you highlight certain aspects of the exchange and completely ignore how the exchange progressed, I think many people reading that thread will be sympathetic to Susan and feel that Infosaturated (who I am sorry to see gone) was crossing a line far after that line had been clarified and Susan had apologized. I doubt this is going to go away given what you have done.
Susan, I am stunned by this, I have a reference point for being attacked and threatened and it is not a place you deserve to be given your effort to reach out for help.
As many of you know, I am no longer participating on this board in an active manner. I do read from time to time. I am also a member of PAR-L. I have written a response there to Martin's message on the list. While there are a few edits I would do for clarity in retrospect, I leave the statement as-is. It will be my only statement on the matter. I will leave the following to speak for itself:
An inference of criminal behavior ... has been trotted out in a very public manner
Do you mean when it was stated that a child abuse report could not be made to the Prince George police because they were rapists?Martin when you find youself at the bottom of a deep hole, the best thing to do is stop digging.
What's PAR-L?
Guess this subject is going to get some heavy attention across Canada now, if this is anything to go by....
This would be PAR-L
Thank you for your post.
Thanks old goat.....thought it was a government site, or something to do with governments looking into this.
Jude's comments on stirring up feminists makes more sense now.
Is feminists being stirred up over this a bad thing, though?
Personally think this is a very important topic that needs to be throughly discussed amongst feminsts....not sure if I would have used such a tactic though...but if something gets us talking about it around the water cooler, and looking at this as a nation too, and making deliberated choices, based upon information, good!
This was not a tactic meant to stir up critical debate. It was nasty, vindictive and cowardly. I have no idea what martin expected to accomplish, or how he expected the moderators who run this site to respond judiciously. I say, shame.
writer's post sums it up, in my opinion. But she's a legend.
Lies are never good, remind. At least in my book.
I agree wholeheartedly. And I miss writer too.
writer, okay I see what you are meaning now.....
thanks polly
remind, I think writer was talking about lies by martin, not you.
Remind, there's no way writer was talking about you. She was talking about Martin.
(poker and euchre, huh? I bet you're good)
remind, to be honest, I'm not prepared to go in circles.
It is clear in context that I am referring to Martin stirring feminists up against rabble's moderators and directing ire at its publisher. He was comfortable to misrepresent a complex series of exchanges to do so. He was content to diminish an outspoken woman and feminist who is marginalized and humiliated by much of this society's status quo. It is shameful how often she receives the same treatment here.
Whipping the mob up with false rhetoric and pointing them against others was his agenda. Not deep discussions amongst feminists about an important issue.
As Polly B states, and as I feel needs not to be said, I was not writing about you, remind. So I will not make this about you, and how you feel.
Sadly, the dynamics here at babble continue to be, from my perspective, unhealthy to such a degree that I'm not prepared to participate further.
I wish you all the best.
...not bad, was down to 14th the other day out of 11,000 to win my way into the last round for 10 million dollars, totally done on a freeroll too.
Unfortunately my pocket aces making trip aces, were not good enough and got rivered by a gut st8 card,
only 4 more spots and I would have ben in on the 10 million game, and not a drop of money was spent by me.
Sorry writer, had already retracted before you posted your post to me.. you must have been writing it, whilel I was getting what polly said, and thank you for your clarification though and words, too...
I can picture you clutching your pearls and looking all earnest.
"Oh, let's hope! And maybe e-mail them or something, I don't know, whatever... I'm not suggesting anything or anything, but could you live with yourself if you did nothing is all I'm saying... anyway, their names are all there on that list I meticulously compiled for no other evident reason..."
This is just all kinds of disgusting. I'll be sure and share difficult moments from my life, and ask for help, just as soon as I'm OK with having that dragged onto a national mailing list and intentionally misrepresented in an attempt to hound me into submission.
Jude, thanks so much for your post here and there. I really appreciate your support, and that of other babblers.
I think we should pass the hat and contribute to our "moderator" having her scare quotes removed. It's an outpatient thing now. You go in as a so-called "moderator" and you're back out as a real moderator in only a few minutes. Doesn't hurt a bit.
Why am I not surprised even one bit. I never considered martin and ally and like Jude was going to leave rabble because of him. Jude's analysis of feeling bullied is spot on.
If members are going to report on other members in this fashion it will be impossible to have honest and frank discusions about anything without fear of reprisal, as a casual member, this is frightening.
....certainly do not see snert as an ally, if we are going to start throwing up that kinda personal attack rhetoric, though I do see martin a one, even though I may not agree on all points with him....
at least martin stands in the courage of his convictions, and uses his own name and puts his professional credibility on the line every time he posts.
though I know the feeling, snert and other non-progressive men, have made me want to run from babble screaming, but to me, that would be giving my personal agency away because of a man....while I appreciate others feel it is keeping their agency, I do not believe for me it is the case.
Just different styles and perceptions
yarg, once that flag as offensive button went up, I am willing to bet complaints about babblers from other babblers went through the roof...