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Syndicate
There is no comfort in your statement that you "don't take pleasure" in defending the gratuitous torture of the innocent,
since there are some therapies for hyper-Sadism.
Unfortunately, the "moral" jingoistic rationalizations for torture (for any state or group) is much more intractable and is not seen by the believer as a problem.
Well according to wiki, some of the Nazis welcomed to North America with operation paperclip were actually prosecuted as war crims at the time of the Nuremberg trials. Some of them went on to study torture under various US government sub-programs that rivalled the Manhatten project in scope. They terrorized Latin American and other citizens of the thirdworld where them and their fascist friends waged war on democracy for many years.
Every November the eleventh, Americans and Canadians, and Brits, too, should remember that the Nazis were really our friends. Or at least it would appear that this was the case.
Who's innocent? The ones who place IED's and throw acid on school girls faces or the few that may be innocent?
Eastwinds, quit sitting on your laurels and enjoying the good life off the sacrifices of our sacred martyrs. Go to Afghanistan, save the people there from each other; show us how it's done. Go. Now. Git.
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was infamous for throwing acid in the faces of women when he was a student at Kabul University. He was bosom pals with the west then in the late 70's and 1980's. And now Gulbby is our friend again, or at least, I'm not sure the west or NATO gangsters ever had a serious falling out with him. Mackay is full of Yanqui bullshit.
The means by which we have employed to combat our enemy have turned us into the very evil we are fighting against.
When you go up the chain of command, who is at the top?
The Canadian government.
Remember also, that former Gen. Rick Hillier (Chief of Defense Staff) signed the Afghan detainee transfer agreement with the Karzai government (something he had no authority to do without the backing of Prime Minister and Parliament) without the monitoring and safeguard provisions and, as of yet, I have heard of no occasion when Hillier subsequently stopped the transfers - he tows the (Cons[ervative]) party line.
To transfer detainees to a party where it is known or suspected that party tortures and abuses detainees is a violation of the Geneva Conventions and the Protocol on the Treatment of Prisoners and is thus a war crime.
The Geneva Conventions also stipulate that soldiers have the duty to disobey unlawful commands. The reason why few soldiers have spoken out publicly about this is because I believe they are too chickenshit over the prospect of a Court Martial and have been indoctrinated (brainwashed) to believe that the interests of the military and its commissioned officer class are the same as the interests of the non commissioned class. Thus criticizing the military and/or its commissioned officer class (falsely) goes against the interest of all soldiers.
This issue is being written about in newspapers in the U.S.A., in China, in India and in other countries. Our violation of the Geneva Conventions and thus our committing a war crime has tarnished the reputation of Canada internationally.
This has occurred under a Conservative administration's watch. And what have they done? Did they recognize this as an egregious violation of international law and universal morality and take immediate steps to stop this pernicious situation in a long term and definitive manner?
No, they acted the same way Nixon did when the Watergate story was unfolding: Covering up, lying, "deep sixing" and destroying information, making sure not to leave a paper trail or any physical evidence that would lead to the Office of the President (Nixon) or the Prime Minister's Office (Harper), obstructing justice, intimidating some witnesses while paying others hush money to keep their mouths shut and instructing still others to lie before Congress (Nixon) or Parliament (Harper).
Facing the prospect of impeachment forced Nixon to resign.
I hope facing the prospect of a war crimes trial at the World Court in the Hague, the prospect of a vote of non confidence in the House, the prospect of criminal charges being laid in Canada and the outrage of enough Canadians will either force Harper to resign or force an election.
Peter MacKay makes the charge that Richard Colvin's claims of detainee abuse "Lack one shred of credible evidence."
Then MacKay is guilty of the very thing he charges Colvin with when he makes an unsubstantiated statement by substituting the word "detainee" for the politically charged word "Taliban".
According to universal justice, one is innocent until proven guilty. That's the way it works. Have any of these detainees be been put on trial? Have any of these detainees been found guilty in a court of law of being "Taliban" and/or having committed acts of terrorism?
If not, then where's MacKay's credible evidence to substantiate his claim/political rhetoric/propaganda?
Fidel, you are right. Even as we speak, shadowy representatives of the U.S.A., the U.K. and the Karzai government are holding talks with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Jalaluddin Haqqani, Mullah Mohammed Omar and other Taliban and insurgent group commanders to lay down their arms and join the Afghan national government.
There have been some incidents of women and schoolgirls getting acid thrown in their faces after October 2001. These occurrences have largely taken place in eastern Afghanistan, opposite of the region of Pakistan where Gulbuddin is believed to be located, suggesting it is his HIG network that is responsible and not the Taliban or other insurgent groups.
Who does that idiot Hillier think he is kidding with his attempted drive-by smear today?
Damn that Paul Martin for elevating this GI Joe nutbar!
WHOA! The CBC is reporting today that the Red Cross was complaining that they were not notified of prisoners transferred by Canada to the Afghans for as many as eight days and were thus having difficulty tracking them. Eight days? Now, I admit I'm a suspicious type, but was this CF policy done with a nudge, nudge, wink, wink to enable torture of detainees without the concern of busybody NGOs? Is this why a former top general will argue he was negligent and entirely irresponsible in not reading reports?
Interestingly, Hillier argues that they may have transfered "Afghan farmers by day and Taliban by night". Has our "kill the scum" general just admitted the Afghan war is a popular war of liberation against foreign occupation? Doesn't all of this make him a war criminal?
What a day!
continued here
Hillier admitted that we (Canadian military) had substantive credible evidence that Afghan detainees were tortured and abused by Afghan authorities. This vindicates Richard Colvin's claims. Hillier, MacKay and Harper, it seems, lack the intellectual capacity to realize this.
It was reported that the halt of the transfer of detainees occurred four times. Thus, the corrupt Karzai government failed four times to stop the torture and abuse. This begs the question, does this torture and abuse still continue? Needless to say, these are yet more incidents where the Harper administration looks bad.
And the Liberals. They would have turned a blind eye. too. Liberals dragged us into crazy George's quagmire in the Stan, and they've supported the Harpers all along.
The Liberals and the Cons follow the same play book. What the cons are doing now, the Liberals have done in the past.
David Mulroneys testimony should be priceless
Whether the prisoners were guilty or innocent of anything is irrelevent. As prisoners of war they are covered under the Geneva Conventions and subject to its protection. Chain of command may be the right procedure at first but any subsequent order to continue turning prisoners over to Afghan authorities was an illegal order if soldiers knew that they were being executed or tortured. This is the problem. Do individual soldiers serving in Afghanistan at the time or today 'know' that prisoners were being tortured? This goes to the nature of the complaints by individual soldiers which were sent up the command structure. Will the inquiry here from those individual soldiers?
Rape is a war crime. Any Afghan soldier committing this offense is guilty of a war crime. Any NATO soldier knowing or witnessing such a crime and does not report it is guilty of complicity.
The USS Cole, Madrid, London, foreign embassies outside of Afghanistan, throwing acid in the face of girls and the abuse of women in general are not relevent and in fact 9/11 is no longer relevent in this specific case. None of these prisoners were or have been charged with pariticipation in, planning or complicity in these past or present crimes. There is no evidence that Al Queda or those who consider themselves to be Taleban have any central command and are linked directly to any of these past events. There is no clear distinction between a Taleban enemy soldier and a Taleban member of parliament, an 'insurgent' (whatever that is specifically) and an Afghan citizen legitimately fighting against a corrupt central Afghan government and NATO/ISAF members backing that government. The Canadian and NATO allies continue to claim that the war has gone through several phases, missions etc. which is used to defend the original invasion and subsequent missions to restore government and order yet claim and work to continue the illusion that their opposition is one and the same from the beginning. There is no difference in the abuse suffered by women by any of the warlord led clans or provinces in their control. When it comes to the abuse of women, as we define this abuse for the purpose of continuing the war and occupation of Afghanistan, there simply is no good guy. These are all the same emotional 'sales pitches' used by people like 'Eastwinds' above to either justify what is happening or deny any need for self-examination. This is the same tactic used by Hillier and others in their testimony when they intentionally refuse to describe soldiers as soldiers but use the phrase "...killing our sons and daughters."
The argument that the Afghan judicial system is in its infancy is a ludicrous excuse. After almost ten years the Afghan authorities still need to be told that it is wrong to torture, be corrupt or deal in drugs? The Afghan judicial system isn't going to change because there is no requirement for it to do so. The argument that Canadian soldiers need to be seen handing over prisoners to the Afghan officials so that they can be 'seen' to do their job is also ludicrous and has no credibility. The Afghan officials don't deserve to be solely in charge until they prove they can be trusted. Until that time the fate of soldiers, citizens or any others who are captured or dealt with by Canadian military and civilian personnel remains the the responsibility of the Canadian government. This also creates the impression that there are no honest Afghans capable of taking on these civil society roles and this is a lie. Corrupt people remain in positions of authority in Afghanistan either by design or lack of political will to change.
This is a war where our sons and daughters are waging an illegal aggressive war and killing Afghan sons and daughters who are legitimately defending their country.
What (if any) meaning does the War of 1812 have to these four star clowns?
Good points Mimeguy.
It could get things sidetracked to start talking about whether or not the tortured prisoners were "guilty" or not, or even if they were soldiers or not. Nobody gets tortured, thats the rule, period.
The issue of rape: I read an article about how bad it is in Afghanistan right now, with rape being perpetrated left right and centre there.
Reporting: YA!! There should be some soldiers out there who DID report it, but were turned away and told to mind their own business. Also, that every soldier has a duty to report war crimes, and every soldier should be reminded of that duty and given a chance to report it without risking sanctions from their superiors. Perhaps a method of reporting that goes to some outside agency, other than the military in the field, who can record and investigate the claims. Whadda ya think of that??
I'm sure the Liberals are just playing games here. They know there will never be an inquiry so they support the issue. Pressure mounts for public inquiry on Afghan torture“We're looking at what needs to be established in terms of what happened,” New Democrat MP Paul Dewar, who sponsored the motion, said during today's debate. “Is there any other option than a public inquiry in light of the fact that we have a government that refused to dispense all the documents?”
Even if the Commons passes the motion, it cannot force the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper to launch the inquiry since that is a decision that rests with the executive branch of government. But it would increase pressure on the Conservative minority, which would then be forced to decide if it will reject the will of the Parliament.
MPs from all three opposition parties expressed support for the motion, with many citing the government's refusal to release information.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/pressure-mounts-for-public-inquiry-on-afghan-torture/article1384317/
Tory adds patriot game to torture allegations strategyWhat the Tories are doing with their militarization of the country, said Keith Martin, the Liberal MP who used to sit with the Alliance Party, is build the military men into heroes and then demolish anyone who dares breathe an unfavourable word.
On the detainees’ question we don’t know which side is correct. The Conservatives are hunkering down. They are not releasing results of Canadian military police investigations in Afghanistan. They’ve stonewalled the Canadian Military Police Complaints Commission on the issue. They declare important correspondence off limits because of national security.
This gives the impression that they have something to hide on this file. It may well be the reason why they are playing their demagogic patriot game. It’s the best card they’ve got.
http://www.metronews.ca/vancouver/comment/article/383929--tory-adds-patriot-game-to-torture-allegations-strategy
Harper using soldiers as his shieldRichard Colvin isn't the latest public servant gutted for doing a job embarrassingly well. That dubious honour belongs to RCMP public complaints commissioner Paul Kennedy who is to be replaced later this month after publicly detailing snafus ranging from the force's still unexplained intervention in the 2006 federal election to the airport death of Robert Dziekanski.
Kennedy and Colvin are part of a pattern that overlays almost every controversy. Nuclear safety watchdog Linda Keen was wrongly collared for the medical isotope shortage. Chief Electoral Officer Marc Mayrand was savaged for probing suspicious Conservative campaign funding. Respected deputy minister Louis Ranger left his post after apparently applying too stringent taxpayer protection to billions in stimulus spending.
However varied the specific motivation, the result is universally predictable. Partisan spin twists debate until the public interest is lost in the din of diversionary bafflegab.
To follow the crazily bouncing "messaging" ball is to arrive empty-headed at false assumptions.
It's not, as the Prime Minister would have voters believe, about which political party stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the armed forces. It's not about Colvin's credibility. It's not even about the hard, unequivocal, blood-and-bruises evidence military leaders insist was missing from serial warnings.
Reduced to its essence, the Afghanistan prisoner storm is about political accountability. Canada had a problem with transfers when Liberals were the ruling party and it reached a tipping point just months after Conservatives came to power. Both governments applied situational Band-Aids, both ducked the tough, expensive actions needed to ensure this country was doing everything necessary to comply with the letter and spirit of domestic and international law.
Far from protecting the troops, that expediency ratcheted risks higher. It exposed them to local reprisals as well as to legal liability and made victory in a hearts-and-minds war all that more elusive.
Those failures are now compounded by what looks, feels and smells like yet another cover-up. Fast as stories are changing, there's now compelling evidence that more than enough was known in June 2006 to stop the transfers or add the safeguards that weren't put in place for more than a year.
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/afghanmission/article/732914--harper-using-soldiers-as-his-shield?bn=1
News flash: They're still thinking this shit will not come out!!!
Closing for length
continued here
Jeeze remind, I was just doing that...
thanks though