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E. May and Monbiot to debate Lomborg on the eve of Copenhagen summit

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remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Well, you are correct, I do agree with them, as I think the whole thing was manufactured, to set up a do nothing at Copenhagen.

 

...but am willing to wait to see how it plays out, one of us will get a big fat "I told ya so" and have to  wear it, 

 

and you know in this case I hope it is you,  who gets the satisfaction, and I have to wear my pessimistic over-worriedness, as  the environmenal movement needs no more set backs.

Unfortunately, I think it will be the other way around, and I will get to say "I told ya so",  but it will be a loss anyway, as nothing gets put in place until 2020, when it is too late and EMay is just a foot note in Canadian political histories.

 

 


scott
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Joined: May 20 2001

So how about that Lawson link you mentioned in post 27?


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Oh, it was not a link, it was on TV,

 

just go to The Hour's archives for the last month, and his interview will be there, it was the second time I saw him, but I forget for the moment, what station/program the first was, try a google with parameters of Lawson's TV interview circuit. It was a couple of months back.


scott
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Joined: May 20 2001

I couldn't find one from The Hour, but I found one of him debating Chris Rapley (a real scientist). I added the link to my post 25 above. So now there are samples of all the debators except Lomborg. The only Lomborg clips are interviews or speeches.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

who won?

and how did you find him?


scott
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Joined: May 20 2001

remind wrote:
who won?

You tell me - the link is above. It is pretty laid back and polite. Rapley wins on the facts. Actually if you look at all the clips, May, Monbiot and Rapley all win on the facts. Not too surprising as the science does point to a need to act. Lomborg/Lawson will be allowing that human caused climate change is real but it is too costly to do anything about it.

remind wrote:
and how did you find him?

I just went to YouTube and searched for "Nigel Lawson"


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

hmmm..such is the nature of poor wording of questions statements....

Can't watch the video, have dial up, was looking for a quick review.

 

"how did you find him" meant as an individual debating the topic, his character style optics per se, as opposed to literally finding him...chuckle

 


Kaspar Hauser
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Joined: Aug 15 2004

M. Spector wrote:

Watch a 10-minute video with Monbiot demolishing climate-change denier (and scientist) David Bellamy.

"Demolishing" is right. That was actually painful to watch...Monbiot completely destroyed the poor dingbat's credibility on national TV. 


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Quote:
Climate Cover-Up is one of two new books written by local [Vancouver] authors - the other being Donald Gutstein's Not a Conspiracy Theory: How Business Propaganda Hijacks Democracy (Key Porter Books, $22.95) - that show how the fossil-fuel industry has sunk millions of dollars into campaigns designed to derail public concerns about human-induced climate change. Both books demonstrate how the world's largest oil company, ExxonMobil, has funded numerous think tanks, including the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, which later issued reports criticizing the IPCC's scientific consensus on global warming.

In December, a major United Nations climate conference will begin in Copenhagen to try to reach a new international treaty on global emissions that will be approved by the United States, China, and India. Climate Cover-Up and Not a Conspiracy Theory offer compelling insights for anyone interested in learning why there is so much confusion about this issue in the media. The Hoggan and Littlemore book focuses exclusively on global warming, touching on such things as the coal industry's efforts to sideswipe mitigation measures. It also focuses on how clever use of language is helping to undermine action on climate change.

In the other book, Gutstein, a retired SFU communications professor, doesn't merely look at how industrial forces have used propaganda to stall action around climate change. He includes case studies showing how business groups have also influenced the debate about medicare, continental integration, DDT, and other areas through slick public-relations techniques that often zero in on key decision makers and sympathetic national media commentators.

The two books both describe how industry-created front groups - such as the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, the Global Climate Coalition, Friends of Science, and the Canadian Coalition for Responsible Environmental Solutions - have tried to convince politicians, the media, and the public that there is a vigorous scientific debate about climate change. Weaver said that these campaigns can yield tremendous returns for industry if they stall emission reductions. Right now, he suggested, "ideology" seems to be driving the debate.

"You get far more bang for the buck if you can get the Vancouver Sun editorial staff to believe that this global warming is nothing more than a socialist conspiracy to transfer wealth to the developing world," he said.

However, according to Weaver, there is little scientific debate, notwithstanding what you might read in Canadian newspapers.

Straight


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Thanks for putting this up mspector, watched an interview with Gutstein last week, mentioned it and the book in this thread, or another one on the NDP's Bill.

 

Like to read the book to see if he also exhibited how industry creates,  and indeed funds, front groups, and who the people in these fronts groups are affliated with.

Quote:
according to Weaver, there is little scientific debate, notwithstanding what you might read in Canadian newspapers.

But yet here we have May and Monboit, stating to the world in the lead up to Copenhagen, that there is room for debate.

 

It is quite obvious, that msm has decided to already start painting Copenhagen as a bust, so as I said giving room for debate, as May and Monboit have done, is  going to be used by governments around the world to do nothing, as the debate is ongoing.


autoworker
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Joined: Dec 21 2008

M. Spector wrote:

Trust the right-wing Munk Centre to have a debate over an issue that has been definitively settled, and giving climate change deniers an undeserved podium to spread their disinformation.

What next, a debate on the right to abortion? 

Although the debate may be over in some quarters, it is far from settled amongst the general public.  Having Ms. May challenge the MSM's favorite naysayers, alongside George Monbiot, will not only generate considerable 'heat' within the auditorium, it will undoubtedly raise her profile, and that of the Green Party, amongst both the media and the electorate.  I'm sure she'll do as well, if not better, than her performance in the federal election debate.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Okay, so this is an excercise in promoting emay, and not about the environment at all, and the media will spin it how they want to spin or say not a word.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

autoworker wrote:

Although the debate may be over in some quarters, it is far from settled amongst the general public.

That is simply untrue. It is an impression deliberately cultivated by some well-funded purveyors of disinformation, but it is false.

Canadians are badly split on which political party they want to be governed by, but one issue they are overwhelmingly in agreement on is the necessity of action to arrest climate change.

The debate is over.

Quote:
By a two-to-one margin (62-27), respondents said they believed Canada and the United States have a responsibility "to set higher and harder targets" for greenhouse-gas reductions than "fast-growing" countries such as China and India....

Fifty-six per cent of the more than 1,000 Canadians surveyed by Harris-Decima didn't believe Canada's approach to climate change is ambitious enough or aggressive enough, with 34 per cent saying it was about right and seven per cent saying it was too ambitious....

Almost three-quarters of respondents said the current focus on the environment is not going far enough....

The telephone survey, conducted Oct. 15-19 [2009], has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 percentage points, 19 times in 20.

Source

Press Release (.pdf)


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

What for that  number to change, after emay's forth coming disasterous  debate, as the media is going to spin it to Canadians.

 

It is just freaking mind boggling that she would do this.


madmax
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Joined: Apr 15 2008

Interesting thread.

Future Debate Topics include

Is the Earth Flat? (There are rumours that people fall off the earth at Newfoundland)

Does the Sun Rotate around the earth? (Look where it is in the morning vs the evening)

Are there Germs? (I can't see them)

Did Man live with Dinosaurs? (1 Million BC and Stockwell Day agree)

Does Smoking Cause Cancer? (The Surgeon General is wrong)

And finally the truth to the question

Is the moon made of cheese?

Tongue out

 


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

LOL@ madmax so true.......


hsfreethinkers
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Joined: Aug 14 2009

Looks like there is still a need for debate. It isn't a debate about whether the science is right, but a debate about convincing the climate skeptics: Death Denial.


George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

The only debate that should be taking place is one about how to deal with it, nationally and internationally. Anything else is capitulation to the huddle of deniers and contrarians who are primarily interested in notoriety, the eco-fascists as it were.


hsfreethinkers
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Joined: Aug 14 2009

But that is what the debate is about! I'm wondering whether some of you are misinterpreting the nature of this debate. Here is the description from the Munk site:

Quote:
C02 levels in the atmosphere are climbing steadily higher. Some believe this is having a devastating effect on humans and nature, while others argue that the threat has been overstated. Is this the moment for a bold international treaty to curb carbon emissions? Or, are the social and economic costs of reducing C02 emissions too high in world where a billion people live on a dollar or less a day? Just days before the United Nation’s historic Copenhagen summit the Munk Debates will tackle one of the great public policy questions of our time: how should the world respond to climate change?

Also, read this exchange between George Monbiot and Paul Kingsnorth.


George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

Post #4 :

"But what it is SET UP to have happen (it's a setup, or why Lomberg, and why the world's largest gold mining corporation's connection) is that technology will be seen as the saviour and we can carry on growing our exploitation of Earth, including its biosphere, confident that Homo sapiens economicus will prevail. I just hope Monbiot can amass the evidence to contradict this."

 

This will be the pitch. Technology rides to the rescue - so don't sweat it. folks. Just have to catch up on the cultural lag.


hsfreethinkers
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Joined: Aug 14 2009
Monbiot's great, don't worry. Money won't help them win the debate. If this exposes a propaganda agenda, then so much the better.

George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

You quite miss the point of Lomborg's selection.


hsfreethinkers
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Joined: Aug 14 2009

Wikipedia:

Quote:
Lomborg campaigns for an unconventional position on climate change: he opposes the Kyoto Protocol and other measures to cut carbon emissions in the short-term, and argues that we should instead adapt to short-term temperature rises as they are inevitable, and spend money on research and development for longer-term environmental solutions, and on other important world problems such as AIDS, malaria and malnutrition.

He sounds like the perfect guy for the other side of this debate. What's the problem?


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Care to reiterate george, sometimes people need a  bigger edition so they can see....


George Victor
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Joined: Oct 28 2007

Those "longer term" solutions for climate change, ask us to depend on his ideas, from "science", for massive counter measures (down the road), like the salting of the atmosphere with reflective particles that act to counter the sun's warming.  Put money into such crap shoots instead of focusing on reductions now, extending into the future. 

Capital just loves this guy.  And because we all want a technological solution, it's a winner from the get-go.   Seen the statistics on the Great Misled's ideas about climate change lately?  (Not to worry, "what's the problem"?  An  Oxford debate is all that the Great Misled is waiting for to make up the collective mind. 


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Excellent points, and kinda along the lines of  the new technology by Gates,  where all this tech shit could make the problems worse than they ar already.

 

The question is I suppose, are people to entrenched into believing that technology can fix all?

 

Either way this debate is a mug's game, and EMay will be directly responsible for the environment being shelved.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Apparently this did not go to well, as there is no comments or tweets about it  on the Green Party website, even though they were touting it before it happened.

Wasn't too impressed by Monbiot, when he was on The Hour last night, certainly did not meet the level of "charisma" on climate change that has been stated here.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

I didn't read them- but I saw blog titles on it on the GPC site. The titles and leads suggested they thought it went well.


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

Oh...you must have gone there after I did then, when I was there the only thing thre was tweets from yesterday and nothing updated.

 

Will go look again....


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004

The only comment I could find was from, unsurprisingly, Dan Grice

 

which actually did not say much....


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