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Ontario MPPs - including NDP - condemn Israeli Apartheid Week in Legislature Part II

oldgoat
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Joined: Jul 27 2001

...continued from here


Comments

Stargazer
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Joined: Jun 9 2004

Wait, so when did Andrea write this letter? There is no date on it. Clearly Cheri didn't get the memo. 

 

Notice how Stockholm always puts "Zionist" in quotes?

 

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Yeah aka Mycroft, what's the story behind that letter? Can they read it out in the legislature?


Michelle
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Joined: May 10 2001
That letter from Horwath is excellent news. But it still leaves some questions unanswered, such as how it is that the motion could have passed unanimously unless all the NDP members present voted for it. Unless Di Novo was the only member present?

Michelle
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Seriously, I'm dying for a reason to back down here. If the ONDP has some sort of explanation for their actions yesterday, I'd jump at them. I was serious when I said was I feeling really disheartened and disempowered after they voted with the Conservatives yesterday on this.

spatrioter
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From what I've heard, it's rare for MPPs to show up for votes on private members' motions. Hence only 30 votes on the motion.

Also, there is no record of who voted and how for voice votes.


Michelle
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Which makes me wonder even more why Di Novo would bother showing up and making such a speech, and standing with Conservatives who are accusing activists of "hate speech". But if she was the only one, or only one of a couple, and the ONDP distances themselves from her comments smearing us and their support for that motion, that would be enough for me. As I said, I certainly don't relish the thought of not voting in a provincial election, but I won't vote for anyone who accuses me or my comrades of anti-semitic hate speech because we use the term "apartheid" to describe what's going on in Israel.

Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

I'd like a clarification also.


Jaku
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Andrea was in the Leg for the vote as far as I know and was told. Surely if that's so and if this letter is genuine she would have voted against. Something strange here.


Peech
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Joined: May 19 2005

Stockholm:

". When you start using incendiary language all it does is end any possible dialogue and cause a backlash among the very people who have to be swayed."

How does this sound?  "Iran: Islamo - Fascism" Week?"

Or "Dafur-Genocide week"

It's the double standard tha is also an isue:

From the Ottawa Citizen:

The dark side of a yearly ritual

This isn’t about Jews, say the organizers. It’s about Zionists. Problem is, the activist groups behind Israeli Apartheid Week are doing everything to erase the distinction........

The classic giveaway of prejudice is holding the hated group to a double standard. Israel is denounced for its designation as a Jewish state, with a Star of David on its flag. Israel's accusers never complain that Muslim states have the half-crescent symbol of Islam in their flags. As the legal scholar Robbie Sabel notes: "For various Arab states to denote themselves Arab Republics is not objectionable, but a Jewish state is racism and apartheid."

Saudi Arabia officially prohibits the practice of non-Muslim religions; Egypt has persecuted its minority Christians; Turkey and other Muslim countries make sure the Kurds remain stateless and dispossessed -- and campus activists couldn't care less. It's Israel, and Israel alone, that consumes them. "

 

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/dark+side+yearly+ritual/2608276/story....


Prophit
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I too heard she was in the Legislature but even if not Cheri was surely chosen to speak on behalf of the ONDP. The Leader had to know that she was speaking in favour. This letter is bizarre if true and downright nasty if made up.

Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Here to try and muddy the waters, Peech? When all else fails, fall back to the "sure we kill innocent people, steal their lands, bruatlize and starve them, but, hey!, we're in 'good' company"?

The fact of the matter is that Israel is engaged in the ethnic cleansing, brutalization, and regular mass killings of an entire people and represents a clear and present danger to all of its neighbours. Further, to suggest that those who criticize institutionalized Zionist racism are silent on human rights abuses in other nations is a pernicous lie (nevermind that no one gives a shit what's on the Israeli flag). Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and many other nations involved in human rights abuses are Israel's allies and friends in the region. It is the company the Zionists keep.

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

FM, please don't engage some defender of Israeli mass murderers in this thread, no matter how disgusting and anti-human they sound. Just let them self-destruct. We need to understand what the ONDP has done here. The only thing I know for sure right now is that Cheri DiNovo should be condemned. Other than that, it's not even clear if there was another NDP member in the chamber at the time.

 


Frustrated Mess
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It's beginning to sound as though DiNovo was a willing patsy.


Bookish Agrarian
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I think this is an object lesson in how little people understand our legislative system and the difference between private members business and when MPPs act as a caucus. 

Perhaps people should have read my post #33 in the previous thread.  Private members business means exactly that and in those times MPPs are not acting as agents of their caucus but as individual members, which is why it was and is wrong to blame any party for the vote.

The other thing that happens, usually anyways, on motions is that the vote is a voice vote and not recorded.  How anyone could know who voted in support or against would be a mystery to me.  And just because a member was in the Leg at the time does not mean they voted.  The Speaker asks for those in favour of the motion - MPPs mutter "Aye" and then asks for those against.  The Speaker then declares that "in my opinion the ayes have it" or the nayes and the motion is carried or not.  It would be almost impossible to guarentee the motion was unanimous since the vote is not recorded.  When the House or Legislature wants to express unanimous support motions are usually worded in such as way that makes that clear.  Something like the "Legislative Assembly of Ontario unanimously supports the right to drink a beer or two after winning a gold medal..."

The Hansard certainly does not claim the motion was supported unanimously, only that the motion was carried.  There is also a break of something like an hour and half break between the debate on the motion and the vote.  MPPs from all parties would have been moving in and out of the Leg as other business was coming up or ending, or if they wanted/needed to talk to another MPP.  So again it would be pretty hard to say who voted for anything.  The only thing we actually know is that Ms Di Novo acting as a private member expressed confused support for the motion along with members from the other two parties in the Legislature.

Anyway carry on.


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

It was reported as unanimous and backed by the NDP and an NDP member was well quoted.


Bookish Agrarian
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Lord know reports are always 100% accurate.  Hansard, the official record of the Legislature, does not show a unanimous vote only that it passed.  Anything else is hearsay and may or may not be accurate.  I've seen enough completely wrong reporting in my days to not put faith in such claims.  So we have no idea who from what caucuses voted for anything.

 

I also see no evidence that Di Novo was speaking on behalf of caucus.  In fact Horwath's letter seems to demostrate she was not.

 

But let's not let anything like that get in the way of an electronic pile-on.

 

ETA

Actually I went back to read the linked article again. It does not say the vote was unanimous, only that "Ontario MPPs of all political stripes have banded together" That certainly does not indicate it was unanimous, or that it was officially supported by the NDP caucus, only that MPPs from all caucuses voted together to pass the motion. Those are significantly different things. If it had been unanimous I would have to think any report would have spelled that out specifically as it would be noteworthy.

 

So it still seems as if one MPP, as a private member decided to support the motion, and that there was no caucus support as revealed by Horwath's letter.


aka Mycroft
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The open letter was sent today to people who had emailed an NDP MPP to complain about their support of yesterday's motion. I assume it was written today in response to the uproar.

Bookish Agrarian
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Joined: Nov 26 2004

I would assume so too.  But it does reveal that this was not a caucus decision to support and maybe even that the rest of caucus was a bit blindsided, but that would be pure speculation.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

I'm very relieved to see Andrea Horwath's letter (irrespective of whether I agree with some details in it or not). It sets the record straight and takes a stand which we would never see from the Liberals or Conservatives. One day, we may be lucky enough to see the federal party do likewise.

As for Cheri DiNovo, she deserves to be reviled for her hateful words, spoken under the cover of "love" and "peace". And some Jew should explain to her how Judaism works, before she makes a fool of herself again.

 


NDPP
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When I raise the issue of growing Zionist influence in Canada and Ontario, an NDPMPP I have known for some time tells me that while they may agree with me, any significant political moves or statements made against this by him or his party and "their lobby would crush us." If he is right then we obviously have a serious problem, both with the power of Israel to have its way in our domestic politics and with our representatives who won't publically acknowledge there is a problem, let alone take any action to remedy it. Here in Ontario a good place to start by way of identifying sources of pro-Israeli influence would be the following organization:

Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies Commends the Government of Ontario and MPP Peter Shurman...

http://au.sys-con.com/node/1299625

www.friendsofsimonwiesenthalcenter.com

In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)

 


pogge
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Joined: Mar 25 2002

According to this David Akin retweet of a tweet from Alykhan Velshi, expect a motion in the House of Commons to condemn Israeli Apartheid Week similar to the one we just saw in the Ontario legislature.

Quote:
MP Tim Uppal says he'll seek opposition support for parliamentary motion to condemn Israeli Apartheid Week.


Stockholm
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NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)

Any reference to their being a "JEWISH" lobby is pure unadulerated anti-semitism - the real kind. There may be a "pro-Israel" lobby - but being Jewish is a religion/ethnicity and as we all know - many Jews have no interest in Israel.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

their title not mine


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Gotta agree somewhat with Stockholm. As for Gilad Atzmon, he spends far too much time for my taste writing about "Jewish tribalism". Being Jewish doesn't give you the licence to peddle antisemitic tropes. He also spends far too much time attacking anti-Zionist non-religious socialist Jews for my taste. If we're going to win, we need the broadest possible alliance - not just an alliance of Gilad Atzmon. He does, however, play a mean jazz sax.

Back to the topic - is Jack Layton capable of writing a letter like Andrea Horwath's if and when the time comes (see pogge's post above)?

 


Peech
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Joined: May 19 2005

Stockholm:
That's the whole point of this argument. It's not antisemitic to criticie Israel or be an antiZionist (as we all know.) But  many antiSemites feel free to proliferate under the guise of anti-Zionism.

 

" So am I saying Israel is a beacon of enlightenment and that anyone who disagrees is an anti-Semite?

No, I’m not. Israel is a flawed country, as are all countries. Criticizing Israel does not make one an anti-Semite anymore than criticizing the government of France makes one anti-French. But it’s one thing to criticize France and another to declare the French nation illegitimate and to advocate its dismantling.

For that’s what Israeli apartheid week is about. As Michael Ignatieff noted during apartheid week last year, “International law defines ‘Apartheid’ as a crime against humanity. Labeling Israel an ‘Apartheid’ state is a deliberate attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the Jewish state itself.”

It is the fanatical, disproportionate focus on Israel — no other country is subjected to a week-long hatefest at university campuses — that points to something darker going on. 

The classic giveaway of prejudice is holding the hated group to a double standard. Israel is denounced for its designation as a Jewish state, with a Star of David on its flag. Israel’s accusers never complain that Muslim states have the half-crescent symbol of Islam in their flags. As the legal scholar Robbie Sabel notes: “For various Arab states to denote themselves Arab Republics is not objectionable, but a Jewish state is racism and apartheid.”

http://tinyurl.com/yh9nn9r

 


Jaku
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Joined: Dec 7 2007

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

When I raise the issue of growing Zionist influence in Canada and Ontario, an NDPMPP I have known for some time tells me that while they may agree with me, any significant political moves or statements made against this by him or his party and "their lobby would crush us." If he is right then we obviously have a serious problem, both with the power of Israel to have its way in our domestic politics and with our representatives who won't publically acknowledge there is a problem, let alone take any action to remedy it. Here in Ontario a good place to start by way of identifying sources of pro-Israeli influence would be the following organization:

Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Centre for Holocaust Studies Commends the Government of Ontario and MPP Peter Shurman...

http://au.sys-con.com/node/1299625

www.friendsofsimonwiesenthalcenter.com

In response to similiar concerns about growing Israeli Zionist power in Britain the following documentary may be of use:

http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/big-story-the-jewish-lobby-in-britain.html (vid)

 

Am I actually reading this??? A supposed leftist progressive suggesting that the Jews (aka Israel lobby) is somehow controlling Canadian politics??? I never honestly thought I would see such vile here. Lord help us.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

So, NDPP, the frenzy-mongers are out in force - the ones who think Stephen Harper is a friend of the Jews, and Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky are enemies. I noticed that the video you linked to actually is called "Israel lobby" in its Youtube version - it's just Gilad Atzmon that dubbed it "Jewish lobby" because that's the way he is.

I suggest we ignore the thread drift by the professional diverters - don't give them an inch, please - and concentrate on the drama that unfolded at Queen's Park and the risk that we may see a repetition on the Hill.

 


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Why is it the "frenzy-mongers" can get all so hyped over a perceived slight by one person while at the same time shrugging and saying, "I don't see it," when it comes to Zionist racism imposed against an entire nation?

I read the posts above and some are so reminiscent of any other supremacist narrative. Is the State of Israel illegitimate? Maybe. If it isn't supported by the majority of its citizens and can only exist through brute force and repression, maybe it is illegitimate. But is the Jewish State illegimate? No more so than a white South Africa or any other state founded on an ethnic, linguistic, racial or religious superiority would be. If one can say the Jewish state is legitimate, then one must also say an Islamic or Aryan state is equally legitimate.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

I think that such things as the Queen's Park fiasco and any varation or repetition on the Hill could serve to get the left wimping liberal types off the fence and mobilized. I think that finally Gaza shocked enough people into some kind of awareness that Israel gets away with murder only because of the strong support of Western elites.  Israel, along with USA and Canada, Australia, NZ and others are euro settler states founded upon the dispossesion and genocide of the Indigenous. It should be noted that Israel is only trying to do there what was done here. It's in the club.

And of course, as must be seemingly endlessly repeated, this has nothing to do with Jewishness and everything to do with Zionism.  In any case I think that enough people have figured things out enough that Zionists and their allies can look forward to a rough ride with their neocon accomplices. If the NDP decides to try to suck and blow at the same time on this issue it too can look forward to its rightful place in the dustbin of history probably sooner rather than later. Harper is very much a friend of the Zionists and very much NOT a friend of the Jews. And Gilad Atzmon does blow a mean Sax as well.


synthome
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Joined: Jun 16 2006

Unionist! Are you ok? It appears you're about to haemorrhage. I'm sure you feel wholly entitled in your truculent arrogance and secure in your middling intelligence, but please explain to someone not initiated in your essentialist politics what exactly DiNovo said to earn such indignation and contempt, other than to have the impudence to disagree with you regarding the use of the word apartheid. As far as I know, there is nothing her position that deviates from provincial or federal NDP policy on the use of the word apartheid. Her condemnation of the occupation is and has been unequivocal. Her work around social justice from poverty, to civil rights, to speaking up against human rights abuses is well known and I would think beyond reproach. Nonetheless, I'm sure unionist has earned the right to be totally irresponsible and discourteous. I didn't realize there was such a heavy price for disagreement around here.

 

I am heartened by some of the respectful and responsible comments (aka mycroft always a pleasure to read you, Bookish Agragrian thanks for interceding with some actual facts, Peech thanks for stating the obvious). But I will never go wrong overestimating the capacity of "the Left" (or do you call yourselves progressives now?) to turn on and cannibalize its own, mostly, I believe, out of its own impotent rage which it so deftly misdirects.

Whatever people's personal feelings regarding DiNovo, she did not deserve to be pilloried and reviled the way she has been in this thread. Her comments were met largely with ignorance and histrionic indignation. Since we're being a little careless with our comments, let me try. I've always loved the bravado of the largely overindulged and privileged white male lefties who have the luxury of exhibiting their bravado knowing full well that the worst they'll ever likely face is pepper spray in the eyes. Also, to the overeducated overpaid gay men who think its "progressive" to march alongside banners of Hamas, I simply invite you to take your short shorts over to Gaza and march for gay rights there.

The enemy of my enemy is not always a friend, and fundamentalism (religious, political, intellectual or otherwise) may be the greatest threat confronting this century. Thought and writing have never needed Jacques Derrida more than now.

Sorry to crash your little feeding frenzy; no worries you'll not hear from me again. And yes, I'll miss reading some of commenters around here, but I remain hopeful that the few truly responsible, accountable voices (those willing to breach the abundance of self-evidence around here) ultimately prevail.

Peace...


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