babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
LP, I think Skinny Dipper has a point.
When the federal NDP called for immediate withdrawal from Afghanistan, everyone accused it of supporting the stoning of women and the attack on the Twin Towers. It cost millions in resources to survive that. Remember? And was it worth it? No one cares about foreign policy. They should have just lined up with Paul Martin and Steve Harper.
Likewise, when they alone opposed the War Measures Act in the House, they had to spend decades and more millions to convince people that they didn't favour stuffing bodies of provincial ministers in the trunks of cars and bombing mailboxes in wealthy neighbourhoods. Hey?
And when Tommy Douglas introduced medicare - my Lord, the charge of "Bolshevik agitator" still hasn't worn off! It's by pure serendipitous accident that he got voted greatest Canadian. Had he been smart, he would have just gone with the flow. Private health care isn't bad. Look at the U.S., and they're the richest country in the universe!
So, listen to Skinny's argument: Because voters don't care about the Middle East, the ONDP should get out there and oppose Israel Apartheid Week! That way, it won't get bogged down. Why, the leader won't even have to write letters explaining that Cheri DiNovo is a cowardly asshole!!
With logic like this, how can we possibly lose?
I hope I got it all straight. Here in Québec, things tend to be more black and white.
And don't forget the part where Cheri says to attack all reasoned debate about the Middle East and implicating our largest trade partners in crime in the deal. She does say that, too, doesn't she?
I mean, that's all we need are the feds to be firing live rounds into a university campus protest reminiscent of the Kent State incident. And we know how strong-willed young people can be when they believe in something. At which point government provocateurs would infiltrate today's equivalent to the FLQ, US Weathermen,SDS, black panthers etc into committing violence and discrediting any credibility an anti-war movement might have.
US imperialism is wounded right now with neoliberal meltdown and countries like China already second-guessing US dollar imperialism and suddenly buying fewer US treasury bonds. The process of self-destruction is well underway in America and for client states like Israel. Do we really need a police state at this point?
Fidel, my party right or wrong is not a philosophy many of us chose to live by. Just saying.
Upon further reflection, Cheri may just have saved Western civilization, by her bold re-writing of the Passover liturgy, her open door policy to "Rabbinic" friends, and her invocation to the besieged and disenfranchised Palestinian people to, first and foremost, keep the peace. Fidel, for years you have pointed out that provincial politicians should not pronounce themselves on foreign policy. I now see the wisdom of those words. Cheri should be fitted with a muzzle.
Well so much for the reasoned debate end of it. Better to conquer and divide voters watching campus protests from comfort of their living rooms. Maybe burn a few desks and furniture in a blazing heap while the gladios bomb a few mailboxes and kidnap a government minstrel or two.
I was definitely not aware of all that - thanks for the info. I can now hate him without my previous nuance.
...that was easy...
So now the NDP activists are telling us that no one really cares about the whole thing anyway. Oh. Then maybe the NDP should have stayed away from that particular session of the legislature and maybe DiNovo could have just kept quiet. But no, that's not what happened. Instead, the ONDP supported a motion aimed at freedom of speech on university campuses, absolving Israel of human rights and war crimes, smearing critics as anti-semites. The NDP did that, and they had a choice? Keep digging. There's a lot more shit to shovel through.
I understand that, I really do. But if we've already decided and made up our minds that Dinovo is wrong, and that the NDP is wrong on this for the exact same reasons the other two parties are wrong, well then there isn't much point in discussing it further. Israeli apartheid observance week is where it's at.
However, what I do think is that universities should continue being incubators of independent thought. Let them decide how and what to think about the situation with debate and discussion. There is the potential for one-sided debate in a public place of higher learning. That's not good either. In order for debate to take place, one side or the other can't be made to feel as if they are in enemy territory by declaring campuses pro-Palestinian incubators of pre-packaged thought for the resistance. Might as well just hoist the hammer and sickle atop the reichstag and be done with it.
Dinovo did say that the motion passed in legislature is symbolic. I believe our political representatives are also diplomats for Canada at the same time and not to promote hate speech or anything close to it in either our public universities or when speaking in public places.
But the ONDP leader's letter is pretty good, and it directly condemns the actions of DiNovo (without naming her) and whoever else supported this fascist motion in Queen's Park. So how about recognizing when the ONDP leader Andrea Horwath does something good, while also recognizing when one of its rogue MPPs speaks garbage? Or does that shake things up too much?
Part of the reason that I appear to be an unapologetic supporter of the NDP right or wrong is where this kind of debate about Israel ultimately leads to, which is this movement's calls for embargoing Israel. I can't support that no matter what's happening in Israel or who is wrong or right. Cubans have endured genocidal trade sanctions and illegal blockades of humanitarian aid for many years and under the false guise of promoting democracy in Cuba. I don't agree with using trade and access to crfedit as political weapons under any circumstances. Denying material goods and humanitarian aid to any country is crossing the line into that grey area of political interference. People can't make clear minded political decisions when faced with outside influence amounting to coercion in the extreme. Children don't vote, for example, and their suffering is meaningless.
A Reckoning for Israel by John Pilger
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2010/828/42569
"Palestinian resistance to the theft of their country reached a critical moment in 2001 when Israel was identified as an apartheid state at a UN conference on racism in Durban, South Africa..
Like the South Africa campaign, the issue of law is central. No state is allowed to flout international law as wilfully as Israel..
Keep that in mind when you next watch the mainstream media [or political parties] 'balance' such suffering with the weasel protestations of the oppressors..."
So Fidel, did you oppose sanctions against apartheid South Africa? Just curious.
Those were decisions by people in the end not to invest in S. Africa and not so much US, Canadian or any other governments. People around the world began asking where their pensions and other funds were being invested. And investment companies reacted by witholding somewhere on the order of $600 billion a year from S. Africa. Neocolonialism is still a problem in Africa in case anyone hasn't noticed.
Israel is a different story altogether. They receive more in US aid every year than all of Africa and South America combined. Israel has been a frontline state in the cold war and now a continuing colder war. The Yanks and Brits aren't going to let Israel fall to democracy anytime soon. I think the left is looking for an easy victory against another apartheid regime, and it's not going to happen this time. The left needs a concentrated laser guided effort toward abating the problem at its source. Israel would be a good prize for the left - but there are bigger fish to fry. Only one way to deal with a bully, and the first goal statement for the left should be to actually identify the bully and main culprit orchestrating imperialism and neocolonialism around the world. That's step number one.
Weekly Report on Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied Territories
http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti...
We Must Never Forget Gaza
http://palestinethinktank.com/2010/02/27/khalid-amayreh-we-must-never-fo...
"Unfortunately, this callous criminal policy is not being challenged by the international community which keeps issuing platitudinous remarks...It is necessary to once again mobilize the peoples of the world to rise up and demonstrate loudly in order to exert pressure on their respective governments...Gaza has become the ultimate test of humanity's moral commitment.."
consider what is at stake while we dither they die - the paramount consideration should NOT be the political interests of the NDP
They're dying in the Middle East. And they're dying in the Congo and Afghanistan and Haiti and El Salvador and Guatemala, India and Pakistan, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, Yemen, Angola, Colombia and so on and so on. We're not going to stop it by foisting blame for Israeli apartheid on third political parties in Toronto or the effective opposition in Ottawa. It's like going nowhere fast.
I think leftists should be concerned about the larger issues of war and war crimes in general, and which of Canada's largest trade partner is making moves toward world wide conflict and possibly another terrible world war? Why is Israel still a frontline state? What else is going on with NATO in the Middle East and Central Asia and Africa? Why does NATO still exist and expanding into Eastern Europe and encircling Russia and China? Which one or two leading fascist nations are benefiting the most from warfiteering and aggression around the world? How many countries did the Nazis march into before democratic countries finally stepped in to defend the world from fascist aggression? Where is the left on today's wars of naked aggression? Why do the USSA and Brits and 45-plus other NATO allies enjoy so little resistance from the left? We're looking at full spectrum world domination by a few lead NATO countries enforcing an oppressive neoliberal financial regime amounting to so much colonialism in modern times, and the left is obsesssing over one of the tiniest countries in the world in the Middle East? Who's writing this leftwing script?
"Effective opposition"??!! You crack me up. Anyway you've got their ring through your nose and will follow them over whatever cliff they may decide to lead you to. Their pattern of treachery and constant sellouts is well documented and an old story. A fixed game and one they invariably play badly. But for those who still believe - harsh correction should be administered. It's the only language politicians sometimes understand. I'll certainly be kicking my mpp's ass over this - maybe literally. After all there are real flesh and blood freedom fighting Palestinian people giving everything just to survive - the ndp varmints shouldn't be allowed to defile their cause with no consequences - that's why they keep selling out over and over again. Disgusting.
But then - as you suggest in another context - focus on the Organ grinder not his monkey.
This is slow work - enough.
Smarten up.
As I mentioned before, if the ONDP wants to support IAW or had opposed Shurman's bill, then it could do so. The provincial party would be putting a lot of resources into this issue.
I think it would be better for the federal NDP to take up the challenge of seeking some balanced solution in the Middle East. The NDP doesn't need to support IAW; it doesn't need to oppose it either. The federal party can oppose any Conservative motion that doesn't consider the balance of both sides in the issue.
Finally, I do encourage citizens who support IAW to become actively involved. When I look at the recent anti-prorogation rallies, these were led by average citizens--not by the political parties.
RevolutionPlease, post # 108 is out of line. Don't do it.
Closing for length.