TENS - Taxed Enough Nova Scotians
Comments
NSMark wrote:I just wanted to point out though that many people who are on assistance (again I don't have the numbers) have substance abuse issues. I commend the ones who are undergoing treatment (both in and outpatient), but I think that most people would agree that those who refuse treatment should be cut off any and all assistance.
Why is this moralistic person allowed to post such poor bashing on this site.
Go back under your bridge. Why not post about this substance abuser instead of poor people?
Quote:
B.C. Liberal caucus chair Ron Cantelon said it wasn't necessary for Thornthwaite to give up her MLA duties, which include serving on committees responsible for children, youth and education.
"It's a personal mistake," said Cantelon. "Certainly she needs to — and has — taken full responsibility for her actions."
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/02/23/bc-thornthwaite-madd.html#ixzz0h2tuz31a
I'm used to forums where open and honest debate is encouraged. If this isn't the case here, I will gladly pack up and leave. Perhaps the members here like this as a place where only common held beliefs are tolerated. If this is the case, I will respect that. I stumbled upon the site based on a link to taxes in Nova Scotia, and wanted to contribute to the conversation. It's obviously deviated quite a bit now from the original topic.
I'm not sure how I'm being 'moralistic' or bashing the poor though. I'm talking about personal responsbility issues here. As for the link you sent me, I believe that the MLA in question should resign IF she is convicted.
NSMark wrote:many people who are on assistance (again I don't have the numbers) have substance abuse issues. I commend the ones who are undergoing treatment (both in and outpatient), but I think that most people would agree that those who refuse treatment should be cut off from any and all assistance.
As you said, you need to educate yourself. Add substance abuse and associated issues to your list.
People refuse all sorts of kinds of treatment. TB patients who don't follow through with their tratment are common- and they don't just cost money, they are a public health hazard. Shoot them?
What about my brother in law- like many diabetics who refuse to save themselves- and in doing so cost us all of us more than it costs to support 10 substance abusing single males on welfare.
Yes, but diabetes doesn't cause people to rob corner stores and assault people on the streets: substance abuse does.
Do you know any forums where there aren't at least some people who are 'extra pointy'?
Harshness of points doesnt mean there isn't open and honest debate. Seems to me looking beyond the sharpness to the substance is a prerequiste to even the more civil on-line discussions.
I think trying to turn this into a partisan bickering match is missing the point completely. Taxes were too high under the Tories and the Liberals before them. Taxes have been too high in Nova Scotia for at least as long as I've been alive. This is one of the reasons why Nova Scotia can't compete with other provinces as its outrageous tax structure detracts business and people from moving and staying here.
Of couse is a "partisan bickering match". That was the point. Or why is the "groups" founder calling himself "theatlanticaparty"? What, the plainly obvious is to be ignored?
Nova Scotia can't compete with other provinces? Which provinces are you competing with and for what? You're playing a non-sensical neo-liberal song so worn and tired and so full of sour notes. You want to blame the tax structure, the thing that pays for roads, hospitals, police, and services for the rewards of the neo-liberal system of which you still haven't had enough. Your statement of purpose ought to read, "Neo-Liberalism, having brought our economy to its knees, having rendered our local businesses bankrupt, having left our children bereft of opportunity, and having sold our natural resources without benefit to us, must be strengthened and imposed until the last breath of the last Nova Scotian with a penny to spend has been had."
Then you will have properly captured your madness and your message. Good luck.
The partisanship I was referring to was that you were implying that this thread started as simply an attack on the NDP, while instead its an attack on all THREE established parties in this province. As to which provinces we are competing against for business, it's ALL OF THEM! This isn't to say that I want Nova Scotian to be prosperous at the expense of the rest of the country, but surely, if we had lower business taxes more companies would set up shop in our province instead of elsewhere, creating jobs, raising revenue, and benefitting the province as a whole.
As for your socialist rant at the end, the last time I checked provinces like Alberta had roads, hospitals, etc. while maintaining a MUCH lower tax structure, allowing small, medium, and large businesses to thrive and allowing its citizenry a much higher standard of living.
But I hate businesses. I hate large businesses a lot, medium ones an average amount, and small ones just sort of mildly annoy me. Any tax structure that encourages them to thrive (and, by extension, grow) merely serves to increase my hatred proportionally. And the citizens may have a higher standard of living, but remember: They have to live in Alberta. Did you factor that into your formula?
What I like about tax hikes, on the other hand, is that they take money from rich people and businesses and use the money to provide services and products that the whole community needs, as well as helping to smooth out the inequalities that rich people and businesses thrive (to use your verb) upon. That's when taxes are properly managed, of course.
A well-thought out and at times humorous (and I mean this as a compliment) response; thanks. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that everybody should be left to fend for themselves. Some people truly do need government assistance. I do, however, feel that some of this burden should be taken off the government and left to private charity instead.
I agree - but only in the case of insolvent corporations and financial institutions.
Well of course you're attacking all three parties--you want everybody to join you on the margins. DUH!
As for your Ayn Randian philosophy, Alberta is still in Canada and Alberta still collects taxes and royalties, although, compared to Norway, Alberta has a piddling amount to show for the raping of the province. In fact, a true conservative would look at the huge amounts put away by Norway over a relatively short period of time and recognize Alberta as financially imprudent, at best, and probably stupefied by an idiotic ideology that argues you put yourself first by screwing thyself and beggaring thy neighbour while handing all thine wealth to huge corporations that will leave your home a smoldering ruin when they're done. What a bunch of fucking idiots. And that's the road on which you'd put Nova Scotia? Why don't you just leave if you hate the place that much?
But of course, for true examples of the neo-liberalism success story, we have Mexico, Colombia, and Chile. Bet you can't wait for the death squads required to support a system of enforced deprivation.
And what of this burden would you relieve from the government?
They've already given up on feeding the poor - that's why we've needed ever-larger food banks since the 80's.
They've given up on housing the poor, too - thus the need for an inefficient and inhospitable shelter system that must expand every year. No tax money saved there, unfortunately, but charities certainly get the opportunity to chip in, if that's what's important to you.
I don't hate Nova Scotia, I LOVE it. That's the reason why I'm so passionate about this. It could be SO much better here. We've been sucking on the government's teat almost since Confederation, coming to them year after year with cap in hand. Wouldn't it be nice to be self-sufficient for a change? And NO, Alberta certianly isn't perfect, and YES, they got lucky with oil. Actually, the current government there has done a pretty bad job managing the province's finances and that's why you will see the Wildrose Alliance Party form the next goverment there. See, Albertans are true fiscal conservatives and I just wish that more Nova Scotians would see that that is the way to prosperity.
Mark
PS Not going to comment on your ramblings about death squads except to say that this is Canada so that kind of talk is irrelevant here.
Hmm, I'll admit that I think that one went right over my head.
Fair question. I suppose it varies from province to province, city to city, but where I live, Halifax, there are thousands receiving relatively large cheques from the goverment every month and they don't have to work a single day for the rest of their lives. Which brings up another point, I suppose: Shouldn't goverments be concentrating more on getting people OFF welfare and into the workforce rather than having them stay on welfare and living in substandard conditions?
Some definite hall of fame material in this thread.
If you can't be bothered to answer a 'fair question', you can save yourself the bother of typing out a paragraph of sophistry. It won't distract us from the fact that you can't answer a fair and simple question.
I did answer it; just not in the way that you wanted me to. I'll be more specific now:
The burden can be reduced by increasing the eligibility requirements for government assistance and reducing the amount of money given out in social assistance in absolute dollars. Better?
No admission required - there was no accusation.
fair enough.
No, if I want a calculator answer, I'll punch the numbers myself, thanks.
The question was, who are you going to cut off?
The injured?
The mentally incapacitated?
The too-old-for-retraining, too-young-to-die?
Or the people who are partying 24/7 on your tax dollars?
You might doubt I believe they exist, but I know they do; in your province, and right across the country. I can even tell you how to recognise them - they call themselves Conservatives.
The truly poor, the disabled, etc. deserve significant support. I'd focus cuts on the bloated middle class entitlements. That's where the real spending horrors lie.
Oh boy. Some threads just write themselves, eh unionist?
Tell that to Nick Nargan, Julian Gryshko and Peter Markunas. Oh wait...
You lefties ought to cut these Nova Scotians some credit. They're picking themselves up from their culture of defeat and learning to be like Albertans. Look what Alberta's tax structure has done - it created oil. Take that you commies.
Not in the mood to engage in pointless partisan arguing, especially since I don't belong to any political party. Cut off the funding to the able-bodied who are claiming mental illness as an excuse not to work, and then heading out to the bars to play the VLTs and drink their beer. That would be a start.
Are you volunteering to be judge, jury and executioner for "who are claiming mental illness as an excuse not to work"?
Not to mention that your idea of how much people on social assistance get is a joke.
I do maintenance work in Halifax apartment buildings with many residents who are the real people from whom you draw your mythology.
Not to mention that you obviously have no idea what a dinky fraction of the Community Services budget, let alone of all tax dollars, go to social assistance of people who are able bodied.
Not to mention I've employed a number of them, and the term 'able bodied' has to be used pretty loosely. Yes they have two good hands and two good legs and two good eyes and they can carry on a conversation and are often pretty bright. But they all have issues that have a great deal to do with why people do not keep them in employ.
The BC Liberals are your party. They have been attacking poor people in this province and have now the distinction of the highest poverty rates in the country and we HAVE oil.
They made every single person on disability benefits reapply. I know people who contemplated suicide because they could not handle the stress of potentially answering wrong and losing the pittance of a monthly stipend.
Devine was real good too.I think he spent millions to find hundreds of thousands in welfare fraud. Al-Q might know the numbers better but I remember they made great fanfare out of chasing welfare bums and then spent oodles of money and found very little fraud.
IMO People on social assistance cheat on their welfare entitlements in the same proportion as the general population cheats on their taxes.
Thanks for outlining your experiences, KenS. I would definitely like to look at the raw numbers (and I should), but you know what they say, perception goes a long way, and I just go by what I've seen and been told by many others. I defintiely won't pretend to be an expert though on this issue because I'm not.
I just wanted to point out though that many people who are on assistance (again I don't have the numbers) have substance abuse issues. I commend the ones who are undergoing treatment (both in and outpatient), but I think that most people would agree that those who refuse treatment should be cut off from any and all assistance.
Why is this moralistic person allowed to post such poor bashing on this site.
Go back under your bridge. Why not post about this substance abuser instead of poor people?
As you said, you need to educate yourself. Add substance abuse and associated issues to your list.
People refuse all sorts of kinds of treatment. TB patients who don't follow through with their tratment are common- and they don't just cost money, they are a public health hazard. Shoot them?
What about my brother in law- like many diabetics who refuse to save themselves- and in doing so cost us all of us more than it costs to support 10 substance abusing single males on welfare.
Your last statement could very well be true, and believe me, I'm no fan of tax cheats either. As for what you outlined in B.C., making every single person reapply is excessive and a waste of money as is obviously spending way more money investigating welfare fraud than the amount that's going on. I believe that investigations should be on a case-by-case basis.
That said...
While it is understandable, you could take some of your own advice about moralism and compassion. Give people some room.
Maybe people who buy into stereotypes just can't help themselves.
[there should be emoticons for irony.
just doesnt cut it.]