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Oil: still can't drink it.

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Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Lard: "I'm not telling."


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Sven wrote:

It's like a "worldly" five-year old telling a friend that she knows where babies come from.  When the friend, who was skeptical of the five-year old's claimed knowledge, asked, "Okay, so were do babies come from?"  The five-year old's response:  "I'm not telling."

You sound suspiciously like that five-year old, Lard.

I just wanted to quote this so you couldn't remove it. Consider it preserved for posterity.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:

Sven wrote:

It's like a "worldly" five-year old telling a friend that she knows where babies come from.  When the friend, who was skeptical of the five-year old's claimed knowledge, asked, "Okay, so were do babies come from?"  The five-year old's response:  "I'm not telling."

You sound suspiciously like that five-year old, Lard.

I just wanted to quote this so you couldn't remove it. Consider it preserved for posterity.

Why on earth would I want to remove it?  Seriously, Lard, you sound just like that five-year old.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Sven if you have four large Anglo-American oil companies, and special friends in government controlling the world's largest army all dressed up and no place to go, wouldn't you think the two interests might be combined to drive oil prices higher and do what Adam Smith warned us capitalists would tend to do, which is to conspire toward gouging hell out of people for their stuff through spreading false information, price fixing, wild horse trading and insanely unregulated market speculation etc? Okay, maybe he didn't go that far. But today's market jackals sometimes even get along quite well with leaders like Ahmadinejad who also enjoys making markets nervous and driving oil prices higher. Market fundamentalists and their fixers working behind the scenes love a good war and even just rumors of war. The hedge funders like driving oil prices higher too with speculating on prices. George Soros told Congress that traders in London, Chicago and Atlanta were more than likely collaborating to drive oil prices higher some time before the big meltdown. The traders buy oil and oil futures yet have no intention of actually taking possession of the huge amounts of oil they buy. It's a big con. Enrong and World Con jackals arent as ruthless.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Hell, Fidel, I'd rather have our system of petroleum production than the screwed-up mess in Venezuela (perhaps your second-favorite country after Cuba, no?).  There is one of the richest oil countries on the planet...and it can't manage its way out of a wet paper bag, energy-wise.  That is what happens when you have a monopoly of state power.  Given the choice, I'd rather have the oligarchy of oil companies any day.

Venezuela is so fucked up that when it collapses from its own stupidity (Chavez was so busy shoveling goodies out to "the masses" that he failed to invest the billions of dollars needed to keep the oil pumping -- and now the system is crumbling under his feet), it will likely take down Cuba with it (which depends on half of its oil coming from Venezuela as substantially subsidized rates -- and, even now, Cuba has electrical power issues).

That a tag team Cuba-Venezuela is.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

So like far too many Americans, you would rather be gouged at the pumps and on your utility bills, and pay premo premiums to a health insurance mafia who might not cover your medical bills at just the right time sooner than cut your fellow countrymen a break? I get it now. The tiny handful of oligarchs paying their way in Warshington and London and Ottawa love people like you because you empower them. And they wouldn't spit on people like you or me if we were on fire. Socialism for the rich is what you're actually supporting down there, and it's costing all Americans big time - far, far more than actual socialism for ordinary Americans would. But that's your choice you say. I don't think it is your choice, but you can pretend that it is if it makes you happy.

I've met many Americans, Sven. And I know that many of you would rather die sooner than admit your own plutocrats are crooked or not governing in the interests of all Americans. To criticize your own government would be like spitting on the flag and sacreligious and cause you to self destruct on the spot. America, love it or leave it.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

I'll take the US (or Canada, for that matter) over Cuba or Venezuela any day, thank you very much.  Chavez is, to put it in the most charitable terms possible, a clown.

Say it with me, Fidel: "Chávez es un payaso."


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

And I'll take Canada (or the US for that matter) over Puerto Rico or that other US client state, Haiti, any day. Besides, we've got the military muscle to threaten anyone we want into playing the "free" market game. I just don't think our descendents will be saying quite the same things in future when democracy finally reigns the world over, and every country is a good place to live after political borders are erased and oligopoly capitalism eliminated for all time. They can run this sting for only so long before billions of proles come to the realization that they outnumber the ruling class by a wide margin.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Fidel wrote:

...after political borders are erased...

Remind me again...in how many gigaannums from now will that occur?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Sven wrote:

Fidel wrote:

...after political borders are erased...

Remind me again...in how many gigaannums from now will that occur?

As technological capabilities increase, planet prole becomes more and more probable. The problem with empires is that they don't last.

People's democracy within the next one-hundred years. Predatory capitalism will become a rusty footnote of the historical record. And so will we all if we don't smarten up. We can't afford economies driven by consumerism for very much longer. Too wasteful and polluting. And debt-driven monetarism is just a weapon of mass destruction designed around mathematics of the atomic bomb with a sole purpose to destroy civilized society. What the world needs now is a debt jubilee and new Bretton Woods accord. And you thought I was going to say love sweet love.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Quote:

Canada’s oil and gas industry can and should be converted to a public-interest industry whose mandate would be to serve the broader public interest, not just the private interests of owners and shareholders.

At present, the private corporations that dominate the oil and gas industry in Canada are inflicting serious environmental harm and causing major social and economic problems. The environmental impacts of oil and gas extraction, especially from Alberta’s tar sands, are staggering. The toxic lakes created by the tar sands are just one example. Gas wells degrade local air quality; coal-bed methane development contaminates groundwater; and pipelines blight habitat, sometimes causing as much forest loss as industrial logging.

The oil and gas corporations strenuously resist paying adequate royalties to the public owners of these resources, resulting in a loss of government revenue to support public services, infrastructure, and long-term savings.

The industry also tends to drive a boom-bust style of development. During the booms, spending is high, inflation is driven up, and temporary foreign workers are brought in. During the busts, like the one now devastating our economy, unemployment soars and provincial revenues decline.

Private Gain or Public Interest?

 


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Lard Tunderin Jeezus wrote:
Now that prices are suppressed in the short term, it is time to put a "meaningless" climbing surcharge on export costs over, say, $75 a barrel - so that Canada can take a piece of the outrageous profits during the post-peak oil era. Maybe, just maybe, it will allow us to fund a relatively painless transition for ourselves.

Sixteen months ago, this was an opportunity. As oil approaches $80 a barrel once again (as opposed to its position then dropping towards $40), such actions become increasingly unimaginable.

Too bad our politicians lack any imagination....


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

I hear ya Lard Tunderin Jeezus. I have a problem with this from the CCPA piece:

CCPA wrote:
The oil and gas corporations strenuously resist paying adequate royalties to the public owners of these resources, resulting in a loss of government revenue to support public services, infrastructure, and long-term savings

In order to resist strenuously, it would mean that our stooges have attempted to put some pressure on oil companies to pay first world royalty rates on Canadian oil. And that I find hard to believe about our stooges. They are bought and paid-for stooges and not thinking stooges with minds for business deals. We need some shrewd socialists in power to drive a bargain in the interests of Canadians.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Once again, they're racking up additional billions at our expense: 

Quote:
Your gas prices are 11.7¢ per litre above the normalized cost of 91.3¢ per litre in Toronto.

from gasgouge.ca


thorin_bane
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Joined: Jun 19 2004

And to make matter worse, those of us in an HST province get hit with a tax on tax. I understand governments need money , but the whole concept of tax placed on a consumption tax does make me a bit furious. It is about the only time I get angry about "my taxes"

I am surprised they didn't just put it on my property tax. Did they also put it on liquor? When I saw the pumps spike by 12 cents the day the HST came in. First thought was anger at government(who do deserve it in this case) second was that the gas companies also jacked it an additional 4 cents to see if anyone would notice.

The nighttime pump was 110.9 around the corner from me. While not in toronto we are only 2 hours away from sarnia with a 350,000 market, why is the pump price so much higher than it should be. Gouge!


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Prices are up another half cent today. But I'd forgotten about the HST, and don't know if gasgouge.ca has accounted for it yet. As I recall, it was going to add 3¢ a litre to the price, so the multinational oil cartel running our country may only be gouging us for 3.5 billion or so annually at this rate.

And just think - now Stephen Harper and Dalton McGuinty can pay off their billion dollar G20 bill with their ill-gotten share of the proceeds.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

editing


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

gasgouge.ca wrote:

With today's crude oil price of $109.24 USD per barrel and the US dollar at 96¢ CAD, the price of regular unleaded gasoline in Toronto, Ontario should be $1.17 per litre at normal profit margins.

At a price of $1.32 per litre, you are paying 15¢ per litre in pure excess profit. Across Canada, an extra margin of 15¢ per litre generates an additional profit of 15.02 million dollars per day.

Perhaps Mr. Harper's friends in the oil industry are abandoning him.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Checked in with the folks at the CCPA, and indeed, gasgouge.ca has been adjusted to account for the HST. And as of today:

Quote:
With today's crude oil price of $102.03 USD per barrel and the US dollar at 100¢ CAD, the price of regular unleaded gasoline in Toronto, Ontario should be $1.15 per litre at normal profit margins.

At a price of $1.37 per litre, you are paying 22¢ per litre in pure excess profit. Across Canada, an extra margin of 22¢ per litre generates an additional profit of 22.37 million dollars per day.

So while the nation is being gouged for over eight billion dollars annually by the oil industry, our governments are crying poor and throwing ten of thousands out of work?

Oh, Canada...


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Quote:
When I talked about a carbon bubble at the beginning of this essay, this is what I meant. Here are some of the relevant numbers, courtesy of the Capital Institute: we're already seeing widespread climate disruption, but if we want to avoid utter, civilization-shaking disaster, many scientists have pointed to a two-degree rise in global temperatures as the most we could possibly deal with.

If we spew 565 gigatons more carbon into the atmosphere, we'll quite possibly go right past that reddest of red lines. But the oil companies, private and state-owned, have current reserves on the books equivalent to 2,795 gigatons – five times more than we can ever safely burn. It has to stay in the ground.

Put another way, in ecological terms, it would be extremely prudent to write off $20tn-worth of those reserves. In economic terms, of course, it would be a disaster, first and foremost for shareholders and executives of companies like ExxonMobil (and people in places like Venezuela).

If you run an oil company, this sort of write-off is the disastrous future staring you in the face as soon as climate change is taken as seriously as it should be, and that's far scarier than drought and flood. It's why you'll do anything – including fund an endless campaigns of lies – to avoid coming to terms with its reality.

from Why the energy industry is so invested in climate change denial


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Just filled up yesterday - gas has been $1.79/liter for a year now. We're an isolated community not connected to the mainland (yet...) and getting a supply of gas to the store is fairly complicated.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

~ We have an obligation to the rest of the world to help curb corporate America of its voracious appetite for cheap Canadian fossil fuels. - Maurice Strong, 2001 

We won't survive as a species unless we stop relying on dead plants as an energy source. Predatory capitalism and resource grabs will be the end of us.


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001

Quote:
With today's crude oil price of $78.54 USD per barrel and the US dollar at $1.03 CAD, the price of regular unleaded gasoline in Toronto, Ontario should be 100¢ per litre at normal profit margins.

At a price of $1.21 per litre, you are paying 21¢ per litre in pure excess profit. Across Canada, an extra margin of 21¢ per litre generates an additional profit of 21.20 million dollars per day.

...or more than 7.7 billion dollars annually.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

That's obscene.


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