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It's part of the movement that confuses assessment with learning. Alfir Kohn points out quite correctly that student performance on standardized assessments correlate most with things outside of the control of teachers ie. type of community, parental income, level of parental education etc.
Unfortunately, that's the kind of assessment that the rest of these students' lives hinge upon - whether or not they graduate high school, whether or not they get into post-secondary education, whether or not they pass tests for trades or professions, whether or not they can do well in a scored interview, etc.
It sucks, and things should change - and things are changing and the need for accommodation is being recognized more and more for people who don't fit into the dominant learning style. But there also needs to be environmental change too, in the meantime, so that more students CAN fit into the dominant model.
Firing all the teachers in order to get the funding a school needs doesn't sound to me like a very productive way to reach that goal. It's like saying, "Okay, all you teachers who have been doing the best you can in an underfunded system and working with children with no program support inside or outside of school are going to be punished for not being able to succeed with no funds - that's the price you have to pay to get the funds you needed to implement the programs you needed for teaching success in the first place."
I think you are assuming that all the teachers were ready to go along with the extra hours, M. And perhaps assuming that all the teachers's skill levels were up to it. I suppose the ideal would have been that all teachers were offered situations elsewhere. But that seems to be up to the county officials, not the pres. It's all unfair? I can't imagine living anywhere in that benighted country without staring unfairness in the face, daily. It's climbing toward Mumbai on the list of places I couldn't visit.
That's patently obvious, Caissa. But how would YOU as a trained educator act to correct that? ...given the givens, of course.
Act to correct what? The fact that what we assess doesn't measure what we teach but rather students socio-economic status?
Are you being deliberately obtuse ? How do you measure grade 2 math skills ? Really? So your're saying that kids can't learn unless their families make above X and until they make above X we shouldn't even try to teach them or find a better way to teach them?
Maybe that's not what you mean but that what it sounds like.
Are you speaking to VGE?
How do you equate correlation with "can't learn."?
I'm speaking to you
you're saying that if a student can't pass a basic academic skills test? than all this tells us is that the parent's income is too low, they live in the wrong neighbourhood, ect. and not that they haven't learned to add or subtract numbers.
and if they can't be tested to see whether they have learned anything - then why even trying teaching them?
No, I said test scores are correlated with the items I listed above. Who said anything about being unable to "pass" a test?
Please tell me what the purpose of testing is VGE?
ETA: This article by Alfie Kohn is interesting. There are many others on his website.
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/staiv.htm
What is the purpose of testing? To see how well the student has learned and understands what they were taught.
If I teach a child how to read a clock and tell time? I must ask a series of questions? how many mintues in 1 hour? How many seconds in 1 minute? Give them a pie plate with numbers on it and 2 hands and ask them to show what 2:45 looks like?
How else would you know what they have learned?
Indeed, how else would you know that they have learned...
Tests don't always measure what you have learned. It could be measuring prior knowledge.
For example, in our house, we have 7 clocks. On 6 of them, this is what 2:45 looks like.
2:45.
Other houses may vary.
I think that the system that VGH would be most interested in would be the Chinese. Students in grade school are ranked according to test scores as are their teachers. The emphasis of classes is on getting the best test results. Placement in all post secondary schools is done strictly on the basis of test results in an exam, that all senior high school students write. Unlike in America even if your Dad is a bigwig in the CP you will not get into the best schools without the test scores. No Bush exemptions.
I personally found this series enlightening and the Chinese system has some interesting features. It certainly highlights what a great control mechanism standardized testing and teaching to tests is capable of becoming.
http://www.linktv.org/chineseschool
I'll try once more. How would you teach in an attempt to overcome barriers to learning such as parent income and education, of course. Like, I suggested much smaller student/teacher ratios and more individualized teaching. PLease don't keep repeating the barriers, they're no-brainers. What would you DO as superintendent of schools and/or teacher? Lay it on the line for me, please ....I can see you know all about assessment, but after assessment comes teaching, right?
absolutely Caissa
I really got into reading Hardy Boys one summer break before grade 6 and my english marks went up quite a bit from all extra reading I did that summer. Testing helps the teacher see where your skill level is at, where you need more help and so on.
Krop - that looks interesting
I don't think every student is the same or learns the same - some type of evaluation(testing) is needed though right?
I'll try again George. The solution is to work to eliminate the barriers. Take active steps to eradicate poverty.
I'm not sure what you are asking me re. what I would do as a superintendant/teacher, George and I'm not trying to duck it. Are you talking about approaches to structuring an educational system or how to effectively teach in the 5-6 contact hours teachers have with students per day?
I'm on the parent School Support Committees of an inner city elementary and an inner city middle school. I have had the privilege of knowing many excellent, dedicated teachers.
You mentioned once of the barriers...the 5-6 contact hours - that clearly have to be expanded on under the federally-sponsored probgram...see the early postings for details. I don't believe one is going to overcome the awful elementary school experience of those kids entering high school with a laid-back approach. Not sure why my direct questions of what you would do in the Rhode Island School case now comes to be a question of a Canadian inner-city.
You suggest there is no hope in the school if poverty is not "eradicated" first. ISTHAT TRUE????? Since that is not possible, I have no bloody idea what you are up to in this thread. You have not even responded to my ideas for a focus on individualized teaching along with extra hours. Are you alse a dilettante on the job?
George Victor wrote:
I think you are assuming that all the teachers were ready to go along with the extra hours, M.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think anyone should have to work "extra hours" unless they're paid to work them. So, whether the teachers were willing or not is moot.
The point is, they've been making do without proper funding. That much is obvious because Obama's offering the funding they need to any school willing to bend to his conditions. But his conditions are that the school fire at least half the teachers because they have been unable to be successful without the funding that Obama is admitting that they need.
Why should teachers work several extra hours per day that they're not paid to work? There are other ways of dealing with this. Like creating school programs, like hiring more teachers to do tutoring programs.
I'm not saying those ideas in the proposals, like tutoring before and after school, won't work. I'm saying it's not fair to dump it all on the current staff for no extra pay.
If they'd had excellent tutoring programs, and free after school programs and sports, and free homework programs for kids who need help and can't get it at home because Mom's working two jobs in order to pay the rent and isn't at home at night to help, then maybe there wouldn't be this kind of mess.
Or, maybe if Mom had the kind of income support that wouldn't make it necessary to hold down two or three jobs...or maybe if there was some way to hold free sessions for parents that would help them learn how to help their kids with homework (and no, not all parents know, especially if they have English as a second language, or perhaps they themselves didn't graduate high school or even elementary school).
There are all sorts of creative solutions to help students who need it. And they don't involve firing all the teachers. But you know what? They all cost money. Because that's the way it is.
So it's time for Obama to cough it up and quit attacking teachers because they can't solve the entire life problems of the residents of a city that lets children live in abject poverty and doesn't bother funding their schools.
Okay, I've been obtuse and I apologize, George. You want to know what I would do in this specific case of a Rhode Island High School? I understand your frustration with me. I'm out of here for the day. I'll give you a measured, reflected upon answer tomorrow morning. Again I'm sorry for my obtuseness.
Yep, we "should not have to" do lots and lots of things, M. But you would have to sell the voters of Rhode Island and the other 49 on that, not me. Looks to me like that's just one more area of desperation south of the 49th, and Gaia knows how it will all pan out. I hope the $3.5 billion demonstrates that there is hope for the down and out and for the country. We could pay a helluva price up here, someday, if such experiments do not work out.
Well, after your fucking game-playing, whatever you consider fair, of course.
What to elaborate on "fucking game playing" George?
I thought this thread was about Obama's behaviour in this issue and that of the superintendant which I consider regressive and anti-union and not addressing the real issue.
Then I realize you want to discuss how to "fix' this school. Okay, I realize that sincerely apologize for being obtuse and offer to address your question.
And then I get accused of "fucking game playing."
Was that really neccesary?
ETA to remove double post.
Absolutely. Particularly in light of your demonstration of sensitivity in another thread. I could not give a fiddler's fart as to your thoughts on education at this point. You write off the impoverished as beyond the pale and that is where I place you in any kind of reasonable correspondence.
Fugget it.
Wow. I don't get where this is coming from. What did Caissa say to deserve that? I found his posts interesting in this thread.
The guy admits to playing a game and "wow" you don't get the anger. Try assuming the role of playee for a moment. Look at that other thread he belched into just prior to that. You and I had a couple of conversations about that a year ago, M. Surely anyone posting here over that time must by now show more than a bag of hammers sensitivity there.
Schools shouldn't be that way, but there do need to be quality checks and one of those is testing.
The biggest determinate of outcome for children is if they have food in their stomachs when they are trying to learn. That is why the VDLC provides a breakfast meal program at a school in one of Canada's poorest neighbourhoods.
The type of tests that the Fraser Institute favours and I suspect they get it from the American system prove every year that the schools that are the most tightly controlled have the best test outcomes i.e. the private schools . Those schools have a few things in common including being very indoctrinating in their teaching methods. They also tend to have higher income and better educated families particualrily compared to schools in poor neighbourhoods.. I think the first two make it easier for children to learn compared to others without the poverty disadvantage.
The rigid rules for students make it easier for their schools to out perform other schools where the indoctrination by the church or state is not so all encompassing. Not to mention that the weakest students in schools that really care about their rankings tend to be absent on test day.
I think the BCTF has some excellent thoughts on the subject. They have been fighting the neo-con Liberals mandatory testing for all students for years now and they are winning the debate.
Yes, Alida provided a breakfast for any of her charges in Grade Two that needed it. There were usually 2 or 3.
Oh, and by the end of Grade 2 ALL of the kids could read. That isn't always accomplished out there. Yet it is absolutely necessary for their learning future. Just imagine the Grade 9s of that Rhode Island School starting their highschool experience with that head start. Alida had to resist the fashion at the time tht was to teach only a "whole language" program. She found that some kids benefitted from phonics. Lo and behold, phonics agaiin found favour along with whole language. What happened? They found one had to work a little harder on some kids to overcome their background deficiences....of course. Finding out in kindergarten or Grade 1 at the latest if there are difficulties in sounding out letters and combinations begins the process of aiding those in need (although not in all jurisdictions).
Are you still apologizing for President Palin, er, Bush, er, Reagan, er, Obama, George?
I'm only trying to get the rhetoric down to something more meaningful than slogans, FM. What do you have to offer on the school situation? Say, did you ever get around to reading Obama's first bio on his early years? (You know, I'm going to give Sarah's a pass). But she seems to be a popular figure in Calgary...go figure!