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CSIS Tracking Terrorists
May 12, 2010 - 8:29pm
This has been in the news. http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idCATRE64A6B220100511 "Richard Fadden, head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), also said he was particularly concerned by radicalized youths, whose families may have been in Canada for several generations, but who have become disenchanted with Canadian society." What do you think? Would you ever report someone to CSIS? Have you ever seen, heard, read anything you thought was related to terrorism, not just Islamic or religious?
Don't Talk to the Police
THe answer is no, I will never report anyone. Why, I and many others have reported George W. Bush and we were told to take a hike. So what is the point of reporting?
Y'know, we have to get better reporting than is in that Reuters story. What matters: which parliamentary committee? who asked Fadden questions? what questions did they ask? is anyone on the committee smart enough to drag this smug propaganda artist over the coals?
Maybe someone in the corporate media has written the story up better, but if not, it's not that hard for any of us to check out the records for the day and read the transcripts. We should be giving CSIS a relentlessly hard time until we can finally have them taken apart in a fully public inquiry into their clearly criminal activities through the last decade.
I'll try tomorrow morning. I begin to flag at this hour. Good luck with your research.
I'm more concerned about the offspring of CSIS agents, and the things they'll likely grow up to believe in and act upon.
Public Safety. Live-blogged by Kady O'Malley.
"THe answer is no, I will never report anyone." Even if a Mumbai-style, or Oklahoma-style attack was imminent and you knew of it? "Don't Talk to the Police" Even if you knew lives were in imminent danger? Do you also mean refusing to report or give information regarding a non-terror crime like rape or robbery? Think very carefully about how you would answer these questions.
First of all. I don't associate with people who would commit an act of mass murder for whatever reason. Do you? Secondly, though I have known people who have been convicted of robbery and other such crimes, none of them have ever, nor would they likely ever tell me in advance that they were going to do something like that. Thirdly, if they were to do so, I would disuade them from doing so, for their own good. Fourthly, in the times where I have known people who are suspect in criminal acts such as robbery, and where I have had knowledge of it. Finaly, no, I will never talk to the police.
So far, my track record is 100%.
I have managed never to associate with anyone who would perpetrate acts of mass carngage. No one has ever told me that they were going to commit an violent criminal act in advance of doing so -- most of these things are actually spur of the moment, if you must know. I have in the past heard people say they were going to assault people and know for a fact that in 99.999999% of all cases nothing ever comes of it. Much of this chatter is casual, blowing off steam, and little more. What kind of society would we be living in if we turned in our friends every time they said something like: "I feel like beating up" so and so? Where I thought these threats were serious, I have managed to talk people out of getting out of hand, and, in the few cases where I have known that someone was suspect in serious criminal acts, and were wanted by the police I have convinced them to turn themselves in, and in a few cases accompanied them to the police station, and found them legal counsel.
They may indeed be tracking 200 individuals, some of who may actually be nefarious types, but in doing so they are calling up thousands upon thousands of people, and questioning them, based on the slimest of evidence and intimidating them. The margin of accuracy of this evidence, for the most part is so slim, that inevitably we end up with real human tragedies, like the one where Maher Arar was "rendered" to Syria and tortured for no reason whatsoever. What CSIS is actually doing here is turning the country into one where everyone is afraid of everyone else, and breeding a environment of paranoia, complete with a snitch in every neighborhood reporting anything at all that is evern vaguely suspicious. Something like the former USSR.
C S I S are the political secret police in Canada. An incipient Gestapo. Avoiding contact would be a good idea for anyone connected with social justice issues, i.e., most babblers.
While it is a crime in Canada to identify a member of CSIS, it's not a crime to tell them to get lost.
Bear in mind that CSIS aren't actually cops. They have no law enforcement authority or powers of arrest; they're strictly an intelligence agency. Even if you wanted to report a crime, CSIS isn't the agency you would report it to anyway.
No, but if you volunteered to talk to them, I'm sure they'd be all ears.
"So far, my track record is 100%."
I'm not talking about your record. I'm sure you're a law abiding and nonnviolent person who avoids gangbangers and criminals as friends. What I mean is if you overheard someone discussing something very explicitly, or saw them casing out a target? Or buying materials like ammonium nitrate, or with a prohibited firearm? Or if Squamish Five types asked you if you wanted to join? And you aren't clear about what you would do if you knew that a crime occured. Would you go to the police if you knew for certain that someone was responsible for something like robbery or rape?
You can't have a "don't talk to cops" attitude 100% of the time.
You really think that you are going to be sitting in a coffee shop and someone is going to say: "Lets fill up this van with Amonia Nitrate fertlizer, load it up with other combustibles, drive it to the 7/11 and set it off"?
I new a homeless mentally disabled man, who was also categorized as schizophrenic, who one day went off on some crazy tangent about blowing up the provincial Parliament in front of some lady on the street. This was something that he was completely incapable of. He was completely incapable of plotting his life even five minutes ahead, let alone conducting some kind of large scale criminal act. Nonetheless he was charged as a "terrorist".
And in fact, by and large I suspect that of the 200 "suspects" that CSIS is tracking, 99% of them are internet wackos, who are about as dangerous as rabid squirrels, off on some crazy trip that will never amount to anything.One has to ask if they really are tracking 200 "suspects", and they have serious proof that these people are dangerous, why in hells name aren't they "prisoners", and not "suspects"? These guys are just fluffing their numbers. What they are really saying is that they are tracking 200 people that they have no verifiable proof did anything, or will do anything wrong.
This is just the old, "I have list of 200 known communists in the Whitehouse" trick, warmed over from Joseph McCarthy.
But this is precisely what CSIS wants. CSIS want everyone listening in on everyone elses conversations for possible suspicious behaviour, so that everyone is living in a state of perpetual paranoia about being reported for completely irrelevant off-hand comments: that is the intimidation part. Moreover they need you to live in fear, so that you can believe that they are doing something worth paying them for.
Real "terrorists" don't talk shop in public. Don't leave internet trails behind them, and don't try and recruit strangers.
As I said, I have a 100% track record. This means that on the few occassions where I have known someone who was wanted by the police, I have convinced them to turn themselves in (in one case actually sexual assault, if you must know). There was no need for me to talk to the police. I did the police a favour by doing their job for them, in other words.
You see, the problem is that there is very little percentage in being a fugative. Its a hazardous and difficult lifestyle, and in order to do it successfully, one basically has to give up their entire life. It means living in fear, and most times ends up in arrest at some point in time. Therefore, it is actually best, in most cases, for someone to turn themselves in.
Now, let me ask you this: Have you ever directly had the experience where the police directly intervened and prevented a criminal act as it was transpiring?
Intimidation is also a visit to your employer with a request to "ask you a few questions" about your recent trip to Lower Slobovia. Such a visit can cause you to lose your job. Or, perhaps, it's a visit to a family member who doesn't share your social views. Intimidation. Oh yea.
Yes, A lot of that is going on too. CSIS calling for "so and so", does wonders for your resume.
Only if I were seriously of the impression they were going to do something violent - and then I'd call the local police, not CSIS.
Why do I feel like this is a set up?
Go with your gut.
Some time ago on another thread, I suggested that a standard request application be sent to CSIS asking for any and all information relating to Rabble/Babble and CSIS interest or surveillance. It could be interesting..
"Now, let me ask you this: Have you ever directly had the experience where the police directly intervened and prevented a criminal act as it was transpiring?"
Not necessarilly before it occurred. Say someone buying bomb making materials when they could only be used for that purpose. Like a condo dweller buying many bags of ammonium nitrate and then an attack occured? Would you report that person to either the police or CSIS? Or if you saw someone wanted by the authorities for a serious crime, would you turn him/her in? Would you report a person with a prohibited weapon?
I'm not and never would be in the employ of CSIS they travel too much and don't make enough money LOL. Why I bring this up is the absolute refusal of some people to "rat" on people who are dangerous, or cooperate with the authorities when lives are threatened. The RCMP pissed away zillions of hours and dollars tracking the CCF and NDP. My mother went as a journalism student in the '60s to interview Tommy Douglas and remembers dozens of mounties. Now the mounties are fighting for their waste of money fat expense account fiefdom the Firearms Centre. But I know of an Islamic terrorism cell planning an attack on an urban transit system that was busted by CSIS after a citizen tip. I'm also sick of all the shootings where people won't "rat" on the gangsters. I think all the Joey Shithead punks who supported the Squamish Five and the Biblethumpers in the States who don't turn in abortion clinic bombers are nuts too. The cops do stupid things but you can't be a smug idiot and let killers get away with murder because you hate the authorities.
This is just another take on the old "if you captured a terrorist that you KNEW had knowledge of a bomb set to go off within a few hours and that would kill thousands of people, would you torture?" false dichotomy nonsense.
It's simply a mask for pure cowardice; another form of "other people's freedoms scare me so let's come up with lame ass bull shit metaphors to scare people into doing things that are against their own, and society's better interests."
Like the "ticking bomb" scenario, if there ever were this impossibly rare case where I had control over someone I knew was going to harm thousands of people I would do the right thing ie: torture the information out of the bastard in the case of a bomb and then whether my actions were successful or not I would expect that my country, a country of laws and a constitution, would apply those laws to my actions in a fair and unbiased manner .... if I overheard a plot, and I was "sure" that it was a serious discussion, then I would report that plot to the proper authorities (not CSIS, the most incompetent and useless spy organization a democracy ever put together.)
None of which means that my country should be torturing terrorists suspects, or spying on people because they look like a terrorist; belong to a "socialist" political group; sing protest songs; or were the subject of some baseless accusations.
We as citizens can judge for ourselves on the "dangers to society" we confront every day in our ordinary lives, and make some judgement calls as to what actions we need to take in order to protect our family, friends, neighbours, and country ... if the situation is serious in the extreme and immediate, then if we are true patriots (to democracy, law, and constitution) we should take the proper actions, even if those actions are in any normal circumstance illegal ... then after taking those actions understand that you as a single person are not above the law, and while you actions may have saved hundreds, maybe even thousands of lives, that none of that is more important that the rule of law and the constitution, and that you should still face the full and fair judgement under the laws of our country for your actions.
So, in your really stupid and unrealistic scenario, I would report them to the police, and then expect that if my judgement were based not on anything of any serious merit that a real crime was in the planning, that I would have to face the legal and civil consequences for my actions.
So here's a question in response to your nonsense hypothetical ... suppose you overhead the exact same discussion you suggest in your scenario, and you report this to CSIS, and CSIS apprehends these suspects and send them off to some 3rd part country to be tortured ... and then we learn that the discussion you overheard was actually a group of online war game players discussion their strategy for their next war game session ... what do you think your punishment should be for ruining the lives of innocent people?
Triphop, you ever compared the stats for deaths from terror attacks in North America and deaths on the highways? Clearly, the most dangerous people in North America are people who drive cars. Report them! At once!
Actually I may start reporting people who feed their kids weenies. Apparently thousands of stupid children get the Darwin PRize when they swallow them whole. And dont forget the bathtub drownings. :p
Would you feel any differently if say you knew it was a neighbour who firebombed an abortion clinic?
So in fact in your experience, you have never known the police to prevent a crime.
DP
Um Triphop, do you know where you are? rabble.ca's online discussion board, called babble? I'm wondering if you would like to ask your non-insightful rather ridiculous hypothetical questions in a place where they would get more response.
That's not here.
Consider this a friendly warning.
And if you could answer No Yards' hypothetical question at post #20 I think we all will be very grateful.
P.S. Who, exactly, is a terrorist? Don't worry, that's a hypothetical question too.
I was 'interviewed' (torture-interrogated) by an officer whose employer appeared to be CSIS on Nov. 22, 2005. He played a support role of both coercing me into the back of a military van (plate 250002), and in shackling my wrists and ankles to a torture chair, and attaching torture devices like an electro-shock cuff, IV Phenobarbitol, and taping my eyelids open.
The anti-terrorist training exercise featured a JTF-Guantanamo officer teaching a JTF2 officer how to torture interrogate, and while he was at it, how to do mind programming using hyposis and post-hypnotic suggestion using torture. CSIS's role was therefore primarily support, of this mind damaging exericse.
The CSIS officer asked only one question, and it was on behalf of the RCMP regarding a Major Crimes investigation. So that makes the RCMP guilty of torture by proxy.
I have sought protective custody from CSIS, recently. I was being followed by what a Canadian surveillance expert (interviewed in a BBC Documentary on the topic) opinioned was Mossad, after I posted this whole sordid, tragic tale on rabble. I asked for protective custody, twice; this was only a few months ago. The CSIS officer on the phone told me that they had no powers of arrest and referred me to the friendly Toronto Police Services.
TPS said that organizing protective custody could not be done overnight, and the safest place was to get myself locked into a psych. hospital, so that's what I did. I got discharged today. In the interim I've written an essay, in my rabble.ca topic which so indictes these agencies, that offing me will only draw significant attention to my essay. I think I've tipped the balance so I may be worth more alive than dead.
I am obviously strongly opinioned that CSIS is out of control, without enough civilian oversight. I will not rest until I have an attorney serve them with significant litigation for being tortured. I am perfectly willing to defend that opinion in a court of law.
I would also add the RCMP to this list of out of control law enforcement agencies, along with the CF's Joint Task Force Two (who have had members convicted for an 'anti-terrorist' training wherein they tortured two soliders defending a citidel in Quebec.) See Peter Worthington's article referred to in my topic series, see link below.
I should mention I met one other recently, who was tortured, in Ottawa in a hospital in 2003. He was hooded while being hung by his wrists and beaten for five hours. He doesn't know who did it, but it has the smell of our boys. This was in Canada folks. This was after his having an article published in the newspaper of the racism felt by brown-skinned people since 9/11.
I have also met in a business context, a decade ago, someone who purportedly was tortured by both RCMP and CSIS *before* 9/11. The henious Section 38 of the Evidence act has muzzled him, and I only learned of this through circuitous means.
Torture is happening, and being permitted in Canada due to our antiquated Section 38 of the Evidence Act. The broadening of its scope and the introduction of the Anti-Terroist legislation in the 2001 Ominbus bill all but legalizes torture in Canada via a legal loop hole.
As Amnesty's studies indicate, the torturers tentacles spread uncontrolled unless these crimes against humanity are brought to light and prosecuted. Most Canadians are completely ignorant of these tradgedies of our 'democracy'; get informed, get active.
My essay on rabble is here: http://bit.ly/d9IICz
Peace,
Matthew
The RCMP have been torturing for some time now. Do a little whip-round of Indigenous folks across our home on native land and dip into the deep, dark depths of mountie barbarism. Sadism? Yes! Torture? Most definitely! There's a thread. Let's do it..
In http://bit.ly/cMnezI in the message above in this topic, 'CSIS Tracking Terrorists' suggests we bring up acts of barbarism, and torture, and sadism by the mounties.
I have a true story to share, of mountie barbarism. This occurred in the summer of about 1973, when I was about eight years old. This took place on a “commune” of hippies under the jurisdiction of RCMP in a rural area nere Kandahar, Saskatchewan. (Ironic place name)
If you were between the ages of 14 and 30 in the early 1970s, and you never smoked pot, something was wrong with you. Smoking pot, to this day, remains a far safer recreation than drinking. A few years ago a group of Police Chiefs in Canada opinioned that it was wasteful to be spending time busting people for possession of pot.
That summer my mom took us to this hippie farm owned by “Jessie”. She lived there with her five year old daughter “Meagan”. Jessie's husband was in jail after being charged with possession of some drug.
There had been a “raid” the year before. The husband ran into the kitchen and using the lifter, he lifted one of the four tops in the wood burning stove. An RCMP officer caught up with him as he held an envelope over the open stove, ready to toss the drug laden envelope in the fire.
The officer told him “if you toss that envelope in, I'll break your arm.” He had the victims arm twisted behind his back. The husband tossed the envelope in the fire. The mountie twisted his arm further until it emitted a crack sound and a bone in his arm fractured. The mountie then retrieved the envelope before it burned, and then did arrest the husband with a now broken arm, for drug possession.
“Fat pants” was the name given the lead RCMP officer in that raid, as he was morbidly obese. So one year later, one evening there was a rainstorm, and we were living on a tent on Jessie's property. That night the last of the pot had been smoked, there was none left on the farm.
In rural Saskatchewan, it is joked you can watch your dog run away for three days. The next day, in the early afternoon, Jessie saw the glint of the sunlight reflecting off the windshields of the raid's Mountie car's coming from a distance. Since there were no drugs left, she did not worry.
There were at least four cop cars, and a pair of dogs. Immediately the children were seperated from the adults. I remember Fat-Pants taking Meagan and I (5 and 8 years respectively) on a private walk into the forest. Fat-Pants asked Meagen where the pot was and he flashed a dollar bill and said Meagan could have it if she would tell where the pot was. Meagan repeated that she did'nt know where any pot was.
Then Fat-Pants turned to me and said “you go back to the house, now!” I did as ordered, as he led Meagain further into the forest, 180 degrees from where other officers were searching the property hundreds of meters away. I returned to where the adults were corralled in front of the main house. After five or ten minutes, Meagan emerged from the forest with a $5 bill which she promptly showed her mother.
Jessie said to Meagen “Where did you get this? Did fat pants give it to you?” “Yes” Meagain said, proud of her money. “Why did he give this to you Meagan? What did he do?” she said now with a lound, and rising tone of concern in Jessie's voice. “He put his pee-nee in my mouth” Meagain responded. There was dead silence for only a moment.
Jessie reacted like a black bear after one of its cubs was assualted. She screamed at Fat-Pants, and she had to be held back as she clawed to try and get to him. Fat-Pants confidently said “I'll charge with obstruction of justice” if you don't shut up and calm down he said. “WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY DAUGHTER FANT PANTS!!!???”, "YOU BASTARD, YOU SON OF BITCH' she screamed as several adults held her back.
So that's the scene. I will never forget this sexual assault on a five year old girl, by an RCMP officer, and the snapping of an arm, for no reason other than to intimidate for future drug raids. That was in the early seventies. The RCMP has had corruption for a long, long time.
The RCMP Complaints did not return privacy request materials (emails from an oficer) in the legislated 30 day turn around. The very real problem is they seem to lack the power to command an officer to produce evidence, at least it seems that way with my privacy request. The complaints commission has been side swiped by the federal government, with its officers learning through the media that their organization is being replaced. The RCMP organization and its complaints division need major overhauls to regain public trust.
A "Larry Smith" did write me in response to my privacy request, the very same name chosen for <Control Name> during my coercive-torture interrogation. The RCMP needs a major clean-up, as do CSIS, and JTF2. The only credible solution so that justice has the apperance at least of being done, is significant civilan oversight being introduced into the core management of all three of these organizations. If Canada can't keep its federal peace officers honest, then how are we to teach other countries how to do the same?
Power Corrupts; Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
Matthew
The lawyers for the Viet Namese Canadian assaulted by the police "by mistake" noticed such things as the worthlessness of the Complaint Commission and simply went straight to litigation and treated the Complaint Commission with the contempt that it deserved.
Good move. Less time wasted.
APTN story