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Racism in sports?

GingerGoodone
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Joined: Feb 10 2010

I've been wasting time lately reading about boys games played by grownups, while Rome burns, and I remembered someone once asking about racism in sports awhile back.  (ok, a long while back)  Didn't get much past banter about Don Cherry's hierachy of hockey if I recall correctly.  

Anyhow, I think I've found some tangeable if not solid proof that yes, racism (and other foerms of prejudice) still plays a significant role in who gets to play and how much they get payed.    First item.  We've come at least a ways from the bad old days yes?  Well take a look for yourselves at all the native born players plying their trade in the pros now:

 

 

FN/Metis--Major League -Minor Pro -European Pro (Active):

 

Norm Maracle (Mohawk) Carey Price (Dakelh Dene) Steve Silverthorn??

 

Mike Berube (?) Ryan Constant (?) Chad Denny (Micmac) Gary Gladue (metis) Shane Peacock (?) Clay Plume (Kainai Blackfoot) Wade Redden (Metis?) Brandon Smith (?) Sheldon Souray (Metis)

 

Arron Asham (Metis) Robin Big Snake (Siksika Blackfoot) Judd Blackwater (?) Rene Bourque (Metis) Mike Bulawka?? Trent Campbell (Chipewyan Dene) Jonathan Cheechoo (Cree) Kyle Chipchura (Metis) Chris Cloud (Cree) Adam Courchaine (?) Keegan Dansereau (?) Vernon Fiddler (Metis) Colt King (?) D.J. King (Metis) Dwight King (Metis) Brad Leeb (Plains Cree) Greg Leeb (Plains Cree) Cody McCormick (Ojibwa-Mohawk) Lance Monych (Metis) T.J. Oshie (metis?) Casey Pierro-Zabotel (?) Wacey Rabbit?? Darren Reid (Metis) Jason Silverthorn?? Chris Simon (Ojibwa) Craig Stahl (metis) Jordin Tootoo (Nunavit Inuit) Darcy Tucker (metis) Dustin Whitecotton (?) Colton Yellow Horn (Piegan Blackfoot)

 


And compare to not so long ago:

 

 

FN/Metis--Major League-Minor Pro-European pro(Retired):

 

Dan Cloutier?? Mike Frawley (Ojibwa) Grant Fuhr (Afro-metis?) Bill Horn?? Jamie McLennan?? Ryan Person (Ojibwa) Stephen Wagner (?)

 

Clarence "Taffy" Abel (?) Allen Aime?? Roy Atcheynum?? Rick Barefoot (?) Bob Craig?? Gerald Diduck?? Jim Eagle (?) Scott Ferguson (Metis) Magnus Flett?? Rod Flett?? Harley Hodgson (Cree) Ian Jacobs (?) John Kordic?? Floyd Lahache (Mohawk?) Jeremy Leroux?? Scott Lewis?? Jim Neilson (?) Rich Pilon (?) Pierre Pilote?? Rudy Poeschek?? Brad Prefontaine (?) Jamie Rivers?? Gary Sargent (?) Barry Tabobondung (Ojibwa?) Brian Tucker (?) Dennis Vial?? Cy Whiteside??

 

George Armstrong (Ojibwa-metis) Kelly Askew (?) Blair Atcheynum (?) Wendell Bennett?? Craig Berube (?) Brant Blackned (Cree) Henry Boucha (?) Chris Brant (Mohawk?) Curtis Cardinal?? Reg Cardinal?? Jim Cashman?? John Chabot (?) Brad Chartrand (Metis) Ted Cook (Mohawk) Jacques Cossette?? Jerry Cunningham (?) Kimbi Daniels (?) Scott Daniels (?) Ryan Davis (?) Ron Delorme (Metis) Ernie Dick?? Brent Dodginghorse (?) Joe Dragon (?) Theoren Fleury (Metis) Dan Frawley (Ojibwa) Jeff Friesen?? August George?? Wes George (?) Tony Gingras?? Stu Grimson?? Ted Hodgson (Cree) Jimmy Jack?? Darcy Johnson (?) Stan Jonathan (Mohawk) Wayne King (Ojibwa) Dan Kordic?? Shawn Legault?? Mike Lalonde (Saulteaux Ojibwa) Denny Lambert?? Jamie Leach (Cree?) Reggie Leach (Cree?) Elmer "Bud" Maracle?? Sandy McCarthy (?) Dale McCourt (?) Vic Mercredi (?) Jamie Muswagon (?) Brantt Myhres?? Brandon Nolan (Ojibwa) Ted Nolan (Ojibwa) Gino Odjick (Algonkin) Ed Olczyk?? Dave Parenteau?? Mike Peluso (?) Art Quoquochi (?) Dean Roach (Cree?) Everett Sanipass (Micmac) Earl Sargent (?) Fred Sasakamoose (Oji-Cree) Matt Sharuga?? Bobby Simpson (Mohawk) Frank St. Marseille (Ojibwa-metis) Joey Tetarenko?? Rocky Thompson (?) K.C. Timmons (?) Terence Tootoo (Nunavit Inuit) Bryan Trottier (Metis) Rocky Trottier (Metis) Justin Williams (?) Ron Willy?? Dody Wood?? Harry York??

 

 

 

An improvement? Sure.

 

 

But equal opportunity?

 

 

I'll get back to this tomorrow.


Comments

GingerGoodone
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Joined: Feb 10 2010

My first post didn't come out right. but I can't seem to edit.   How do I manage it? 


GingerGoodone
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Joined: Feb 10 2010

Oh never mind, I better get back to business. 


GingerGoodone
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I hope there's some interest in this. I remember that Babble seemed to have quite a few knowledgeable hockey fans, and racism is an issue I'm particularly concerened about.

Anyhow, the list I put together probably made it look like it wasn't so bad, given Canada's small Aboriginal and metis communities, but it's worse than it looks at first glance. These are the only players who played in "the show" this year.

 
Carey Price
Wade Redden
Sheldon Souray
Arron Asham
Rene Bourque
Jonathan Cheechoo
Vernon Fiddler
D.J. King
Cody McCormick
T.J. Oshie
Jordin Tootoo
Darcy Tucker

 

Only twelve out of over five hundred Canadians players to suite up in the NHL last year were of aboriginal or metis descent, only about half the number there should be population wise. A disproportionate number of the non-white players also appear to be relegated into enforcer roles, from junior on up. That's just exhibit number one. I'll add a few more in this line, as this problem is consistantly denied at all levels.


GingerGoodone
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Joined: Feb 10 2010

I hate to say this but your edit function is crap.  Is there any way to post a series of links here without screwing up the entire format? 


GingerGoodone
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Joined: Feb 10 2010

Next installment. 

Has anyone here heard the story of Herb Carnegie, arguably one of the best hockey players to never get a chance to play in the NHL? 

 

Take a look.

 

http://www.wnyc.org/books/33287

 

 

 

 

 


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Hey Gingerone. Thanks for these links. I fixed up your posts--I agree there are some big problems with posting--we're trying to fix them, but the sad fact is it's something we just have to get used to for a while. I don't like it either, but there you go. Try putting in a few extra carriage returns between lines and it often cleans it up a bit.

Here are some other trheads we've had on racism in sports, although nothing on First Nations athletes in hockey:

Racism in Sports

Racism hit F1 in Spain

 


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Catchfire wrote:

Hey Gingerone. Thanks for these links. I fixed up your posts--I agree there are some big problems with posting--we're trying to fix them, but the sad fact is it's something we just have to get used to for a while. I don't like it either, but there you go. Try putting in a few extra carriage returns between lines and it often cleans it up a bit.

Here are some other trheads we've had on racism in sports, although nothing on First Nations athletes in hockey:

Racism in Sports

Racism hit F1 in Spain

 

 

Hi Catchfire,

Sorry if I was stamping my feet a bit.  It took me some time to gather up all that information, so I was just getting a little frustrated.  It looks ok now, so you must have fixed it while I was absent.  Thank you.  :)   I'll take your advice next time and try to double-space, but mostly I think I'll just stick to regular urls from now on.   

More interesting stories I see.  I should have known that others here would already be ahead of me.   Tongue out


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

And I had so many other angles ready to explore here too.  Oh well, not like this is exactly breaking news either... 


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/tednolan.html

 

Of course, there's rumours that the reason Ted Nolan wasn't hired as an NHL coach after Buffalo was because he was drunk at practice, and sleeping with Hasek's wife, or that he was a "GM killer", due to the difficulties John Muckler had in Buffalo.

 

It's all gossip and rumours.  However, I think in the smallish inner world of NHL hockey there is no shortage of stories about this coach or that player sleeping with some other guy's wife, or this coach or that coach being a "GM Killer" or otherwise running afoul of the unwritten rules of the league.

But if they win, they still coach.   Everyone wants a winner and will over look pretty much anything if the player or coach or GM brings more wins than the last guy.

 

Except Ted Nolan..... for some reason.

In truth, I think the line Nolan crossed was when the whispering campaign was started against him, using racial stereotypes like he was drunk at practice, he reacted by decrying the inherent racism, thereby bringing the NHL into disrepute, in the eyes of the NHL.

It wasn't the racists bringing the league into disrepute, mind you, but the person blowing the whistle.

 

 

 

 

 

 


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

And that Ted as far as I know remains unapologetic. Ted seems to live by the perspective that hes good enough that even if they black ball him from the top jobs... there will always be something he wants to do and gets enough. He genuinely enjoyed coaching in Moncton, and thought very hard about leaving it foir that reason.

I think that pholosophical approach to the opportunities he gets butresses why he isnt afraid of them and doesnt lick boots.

Don't know remotely enough about hockey to comment on the "data" posted.

But even with the improvements in climate, and some [very glacial] change in opporunities open to people of colour, pofessional sports remain incredible bastions of racism.


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Some progress for sure KenS, but the song does remain remarkably similar underneath the high notes. 

FYI, I first posted all those hockey db links so others could see who they are, when they played, for who and how long.  Most the retired players are from fairly recently too, but still only about half of the number there should be given the relative population (1-2 million FN, Inuit, metis out of 30 million in Canada now) and the popularity of the game even on the most isolated and impoverished reserves.  Reserves in Manitoba and Northern Ontario have organized Junior A teams now to encourage their more talented kids, some quite successful, but I noticed that even their star prospects are more often ignored by the scouts and disappear from the scene soon after.

Fred Sasakamoose is usually credited with being the first "full status Indian" to open the door the bigs, if only briefly, but Michigan native "Taffy" Abel starred in the thirties (guy was like 250 lb which was huge for back then, but could also play) and saw rumours that the great Pierre Pilote of Chicago is actually metis-Cree?  Not sure there, but the heavy duty racism of the day wouldn't have exactly encouraged anyone to openly proclaim non-white ancestry, even the greats.

Lots more examples of this kind of subtle and not-so subtle racism persisting, but that too can wait.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001

 

Getting away from hockey for just a moment, does it strike anyone else as odd that two time world series champion Cito Gaston never got a job managing a team other than the Jays?

 

Many people comment on his style, but back to back wins not making you a hot commodity in the managing fraternity?

 

 


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

That was kind of strange, successful as he was.  How many black managers are there in baseball now?  Not that long ago it was unheard of as...black quaterbacks in football.  Or Canadian QBs in the CFL.  

I'll have to look it up but I bet even in basketball, where African Americans make up about 75% of the starters and 90% of the stars, the number is down around a third or less.


Erik Redburn
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Back to hockey before I move onto others.  First, that article I posted on Herb Carnegie was very balanced -a little too balanced.

 

"Furthermore, Detroit Red Wings centre Jim McFadden won the NHL Rookie of the Year award in the 1947-48 season-at age twenty-eight.
Incidentally, Robinson, born January 31, 1919, was a mere forty weeks older than Carnegie when he broke baseball's colour barrier and won the National League Rookie of the Year award. Robinson clearly had not considered himself too old to spend a year in the minors to play his way into the big leagues.

"Herb wouldn't have been the first guy to start off in the minors before getting to the NHL," Laprade said. "You don't just jump into the National Hockey League. You go to the minors, get experience, then maybe after two or three months or a year, they'd call him up.""

 

They focus too much on his not signing the big deal they offered and fudged a few things.  Yes, there were older guys playing the minors then (working class guys playing competitive hockey since they were ten wouldn't have a lot of other prospects) but basically just playing out their string then.  Maybe hoping for a shot at coaching -if they were white.  Maybe just hoping for a couple more years in senior with some decent paying company. 

In the old six team league a lot of very good players took alot longer than a few months to a year to make it too.  Hall of Famer Johnny Bower took almost a decade before he got serious time to prove he could shine.  Most never made it but would still be bound by contracts with almost no labour laws to protect them.  

And the QHL was probably the best semi-amateur league ever, maybe a notch below the powerful AHL of the times, level and a half below the 6 team NHL maybe, so playing in places like Tacoma would definitely be a step down (WHL eventually went pro too and rivalled the AHL) and do little to develop his already mature game.

 

(yes, I have been reading too much hockey history, I know)

So even now, in articles supposedly highlighting the injustice it's downplayed.

 


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

And this kind of thing still goes on, even long after the barriers are supposedly broken and expansion should allow anyone with talent to shine through.

Consider the case of Anson Carter. 

Only two years after the cosmopolitan Vancouver Canucks refused his reasonable demand of two million a year, after a career thirty goal season  (they signed career grinder Willie Mitchell for 3.5-4) he was out of pro hockey.  Canucks had just dumped Todd Bertuzzi, there only other scoring winger but he wasn't good enough? 

He ended up signing with a weak Washington team that Ovechkin hadn't revived yet, and had a poor year.  Didn't do much better when they traded him to Carolina.  Next year he was a walk-on to Edmontons camp, place he first established himself as a star of sorts, but was cut early and ended up playing out his string in Europe.  That was it for his career.

How come?  Was he too old and too expensive?  Not unusually so, still a lot of guys just over thirty contributing, guys who have had more than one bad year.  Guys easily making that amount if they have any scoring touch and toughness at all.  He wasn't exactly Jerome Iginla, but over the previous decade he had proven himself capable in all areas, playing for Canada at the worlds a couple times.  

I signed onto a local sports site just to ask about it onetime, (Canucks were still looking for goals) and the word was he had a "bad attitude" and "thought too much of himself".  IOW, the usual stereotypes for black athletes who didn't just take what was given to them.  Unlike all the good old "Canadian" kids.  I argued the point a bit but the resident experts wouldn't hear it.  So another talent wasted, even when talent is in short supply everywhere.


Erik Redburn
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Did somemore poking around about coahing and management in other pro sports and it's about as I expected.

 

"This just in: The president of the United States is a man of color.

What? You knew this already? That's good. So does this mean we are all now post-racial?

Of course, we're not yet quite post-racial, and we may never become an ideally colorblind society, but if we truly want to get there, we do have a working institutional model.

Professional football (1946) and baseball (1947) integrated in the competition area first, and hockey doesn't really enter into this discussion, for rather obvious reasons, but the fact is the National Basketball Association is the most egalitarian major institution in our society. In fact, the NBA is so infused with black power that it is the only significant American institution I know of where the white man is inherently perceived to be inadequate to the task.

But put the topic of playing ability to the side for a moment. Where the NBA laps and relaps the field is in the area of authority. All this discussion about the paucity of black coaches and managers in football and base ball is so much Sanskrit to those of us who follow the NBA, where black coaches have been coming and going and coming and going and coming and going for 40-plus years.

Unless there's been a change in the last five minutes (you'd be wise to check), the NBA has nine black head coaches. Two of them replaced fired black head coaches, something that has been going on in this league since the Detroit Pistons fired Earl Lloyd and replaced him with assistant Ray Scott in 1972, when Barack Obama was 11 years old and living in Honolulu."

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2009/01/22/nba_...

 

Come a long way from this, a mere eighteen years ago, right? 

 

"IN the past 45 years, Blacks have gone from zero to square two as coaches, but are still stuck in square one in the front office and the owner's circle. Twenty-six years after Bill Russell be- came major sports' first Black coach in the modern era, Blacks are still more likely to run a play than a team.

For African-American head coaches in the three major sports, two seems to be the magic number. Only two (three if you count the Montreal Expos' Felipe Alou, the first Dominican to manage in the majors) of baseball's 26 teams have Black managers. The same is true in pro football where Blacks hold only two of the league's 28 coaching positions. Even in the NBA, Blacks only comprise two of the 27 head coaching slots."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n10_v47/ai_12511413/

 

Wrong.  There are thirty teams in the NBA now, and only nine African American coaches still.  And only four GMS.  And only one black majority owner. (But of course ownership has more to do with deep pockets, but doesn't that also tell us something about the comparitive positions of minorities in the United States, what with almost ten percent of general population being black?)  Not great numbers when we remember that African Americans comprise the largest pool of talent for the best basketball league in the world.  Yet when their playing days are over they rarely have anywhere else in the game to go.  Funny that.  

Yet it's supposed to be the shining example that "post-racial" Americans are supposed to look to.  

 

Next one, the comparitive histories of Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire, two of the greatest hitters in baseball who somehow ended up with very different reputations.

 


clandestiny
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Joined: Sep 13 2004

according to something i read, the genetic 'genome' writings (DNA) in human makeup that determines skin/eye/hair colour are fairly easily manipulated, with astonishing proviso that making a black person white is easier then making a white person black. It is so wonderful to think that, a non white person could, for an investment by government of 30 to 50 billion $ R and D (?) could be  changed into a blue eyed blond, as white as ann colter and rush limbah humbug! And Don cherry, needless to say. Klol..the poor racists would have nada to whine about, what with we're all 'angels' now: the Aryan botherhood, that's Weus! Anyway, it's through pure brute force endeavours like this that white supremecy/racism will finally be defeated, and nothing else. Meanwhile, the hatred you see in Israel/Palestine, etc, among people who LOOK RELATED by birth, may need a finer, more christian like approach...


KeyStone
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Ginger,

I think that in order to establish the lack of FN/Metis players in the NHL represents racism, you need to examine the root cause.
Simply looking at the end results, and suggesting that anything short of parity, based on percentage of the overall population is lacking.

For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

There are also very few players in the NHL of Asian descent, relative to the population in Canada - likely with even greater disparity than the one brought up with FN/Metis. Does that demonstrate a racial bias, or are there other factors?

I think that one of the factors is the economic barriers to playing hockey. It costs money, which many FN children do not have due to the economic disparties.


lepidoptera
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Too few small Canadian men are sumo wrestlers.   Racist bastards!

Too few blind indy car drivers. Discrimination in sports...bastards!

Too few men in woman's syncronized swimming. Sexist bastards!

I don't think there have been ANY men crowned Miss America...we must not stand for this!!!

 


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

lepidoptera, your comments are out of line and are not in concert with babble policy. If you have nothing constructive to add to this conversation, keep your asinine comments to yourself. This is a warning.


Maysie
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Joined: Apr 21 2005

[thread drift]

Keystone wrote:
 For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

We can conclude that behaviour outside of what is considered acceptable and "normal" is criminalized in men. This includes being poor, by the way. And hey, that same behaviour that's criminalized in men, is psychiatrized for women, for the most part. 

[/thread drift]

.......

clandestiny, I can't begin to describe the levels of offensiveness that your post at #17 describes. Racial differences are socially constructed.  (Social and cultural differences are not, however.)

If there wasn't a "visible" difference in skin colour in humans, power holders would make up some other equally arbitrary difference to imbue superiority and inferiority to. Which they have. And to be crystal clear, the differences are arbitrary, systemic oppression is not.


Star Spangled C...
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Tommy_Paine wrote:

 

Getting away from hockey for just a moment, does it strike anyone else as odd that two time world series champion Cito Gaston never got a job managing a team other than the Jays?

 

Many people comment on his style, but back to back wins not making you a hot commodity in the managing fraternity?

 

 

His back to back wins were followed by several terrible seasons. Not necessarily his fault since the team got sold, the Canadian dollar went into decline and the Jays couldn't really compete financially. But by the time he left the Jays, Gaston wasn't exactly a hot commodity.


Erik Redburn
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I've been away so can I answer this Catchfire?

 

lepidoptera wrote:

Too few small Canadian men are sumo wrestlers.   Racist bastards!

Too few blind indy car drivers. Discrimination in sports...bastards!

Too few men in woman's syncronized swimming. Sexist bastards!

I don't think there have been ANY men crowned Miss America...we must not stand for this!!!

 

 

So in your mind the lack of aboriginal players making pro hockey is equivilant to that old rightwing cannard about the lack of "blind guys driving cabs" being portrayed as discrimination in our "liberal" media??  (not that it ever has been)  I'd say you have some real issues to work out dude -try expanding your range of reading beyond the National Post for starters. 

And sorry, but hockey is a little more part of our common Canadian "culture" than Sumo wrestling is.  And I do believe that close to fifty percent of aboriginal people are male, just like "us".  (I have heard rumours that women play hockey too but mostly in their own leagues which get no coverage) Anything else? 

Then I hope that wraps up that amusing little sideline.


Erik Redburn
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Star Spangled Canadian wrote:

Tommy_Paine wrote:

 

Getting away from hockey for just a moment, does it strike anyone else as odd that two time world series champion Cito Gaston never got a job managing a team other than the Jays?

 

Many people comment on his style, but back to back wins not making you a hot commodity in the managing fraternity?

 

 

His back to back wins were followed by several terrible seasons. Not necessarily his fault since the team got sold, the Canadian dollar went into decline and the Jays couldn't really compete financially. But by the time he left the Jays, Gaston wasn't exactly a hot commodity.

 

Ok, but there's no shortage of white coaches who get fired for losing skids getting another crack at it, is there?   Even the best coaches and managers can only go so far with the talent they have, I think that's widely recognised. 

Ted Nolan may be a better example.  He didn't do bad with a mediocre to bad Islander team either, when he finally got hired again, but was quickly let go again when he failed to guide them to the playoffs a second time. Now hes back in the minors somewhere.

Either way, there's another even more notable gap between the number of minorities playing sports (even where they've proven themselves superior players on average, as in basketball) and those who get promoted to the bench or front office.   In all pro sports.   I haven't been able to detect much corrolation between their average win/loss records and white guys, beyond the fact that those who are still "breaking barriers" tend to start with (or get stuck with) weaker organizations more willing to look at every option.

So, again, it naturally raises questions, just like it does when so few women make head office, even in fields where they are the majority.


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

KeyStone wrote:

Ginger,

I think that in order to establish the lack of FN/Metis players in the NHL represents racism, you need to examine the root cause.
Simply looking at the end results, and suggesting that anything short of parity, based on percentage of the overall population is lacking.

For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

There are also very few players in the NHL of Asian descent, relative to the population in Canada - likely with even greater disparity than the one brought up with FN/Metis. Does that demonstrate a racial bias, or are there other factors?

I think that one of the factors is the economic barriers to playing hockey. It costs money, which many FN children do not have due to the economic disparties.

 

I'm just plain old Erik again.  I outed myself.

But a fair point.  By itself its not necessarily "proof" but given the consistency of this pattern over time and place, and taken in combination with other indicators mentioned, it could be considered as evidence --unless other more compelling explanations are given.  You mentioned that ninety percent of those in prison are men, but that's easily explained by the fact that men are bigger on average, have more testoserone, and usually socialized towards more aggressive and competitive values. 

(related but extraneous commentary cut)

To aboriginal players in hockey again, the economic disadvantages they often start with should also be seen as a sign of this systemic racism, don't you think?  (ice-hockey is more expensive than basketball or footie)  But I also think it's often more direct than that.   I do believe that good players are still being passed over for lesser players, as prejudice is nothing if not unintelligent.  I'll get back to this somemore soon, thanks for reminding me.  I'm just trying to supply some tangeable, concrete evidence here, for what's obviously still a controversial subject.


lepidoptera
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Joined: Jan 25 2010

Catchfire wrote:

lepidoptera, your comments are out of line and are not in concert with babble policy. If you have nothing constructive to add to this conversation, keep your asinine comments to yourself. This is a warning.

PLEASE kick me out....I am so non-racist that I don't even acknowledge the existance of FN, or gay or ethnic groups...etc...we're all the same. I don't belong here with you racists. You crackpots encourage racism and sexism etc. with such discussions.  One last thought before I'm kicked out for good , I hope....when FN folks stop living the steroetype they will stop being treated that way. Good-bye


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Recognising the existence of racism encourages racism?  When FN stop living the stereotype they'll stop being treated that way???  You're right.  You are on the wrong board.


clandestiny
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Joined: Sep 13 2004

Maysie wrote:

[thread drift]

Keystone wrote:
 For instance, over 90% of the people in Canadian prisons are male. Does that mean that we can conclude that the system is biased against males?

We can conclude that behaviour outside of what is considered acceptable and "normal" is criminalized in men. This includes being poor, by the way. And hey, that same behaviour that's criminalized in men, is psychiatrized for women, for the most part. 

[/thread drift]

.......

clandestiny, I can't begin to describe the levels of offensiveness that your post at #17 describes. Racial differences are socially constructed.  (Social and cultural differences are not, however.)

If there wasn't a "visible" difference in skin colour in humans, power holders would make up some other equally arbitrary difference to imbue superiority and inferiority to. Which they have. And to be crystal clear, the differences are arbitrary, systemic oppression is not.

>>>>>>I agree with your...gist. For example, colour doesn't change the contempt for catholics in N. Ireland by the on-top -the-heap protestants (indeed, the upper class contempt of poor in british society is as bitter as anything any 'wog' has suffered- read 'hard times' for a glimpse of a loathing that transcends 'colour'!)...my idea- that what Conrad called the 'distinction' of being 'white' could be removed via gene engineering- must horrify such as ann coulter, who has literally nothing else going for her but DNA! It makes me laff to see the racist media avoid the subject (that hair/skin/eye colour can be altered via changed DNA, making, for ex. Pygmy children born with 6 foot tall, yellow hair and blue eye genetic codes,  almost inevitable- but the topic is angrily avoided by white racists in media, who love to mention Parkinsen disease etc....we should throw their racism in their faces!)

I hate the pink n's (racists)....grew up among them


Maysie
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Joined: Apr 21 2005

Jeez this thread gets bumped and all sorts of things start happening.

lepidoptera, I wish I could say it's been nice knowing you. You're out.

clandestiny. One last time. Over 100 years ago, racism was "explained" biologically. Whites were the superior "race" back then too. Handy.

About 80-90 years ago, most, not all (apparently) of the biological-school-of-thought-to-justify-racism adherents, moved onto "socio-cultural" explanations. Again, white folks come out on top. Charming.

Using "racial features" and perceived "biological differences" to "explain" the reasons for racism is so offensive (sort of like making a biological argument for why women are inferior to men) that it warrants banning you, clandestiny. But you've been around a while, and I feel like your heart is in the right place.

This is 2010. Please do some reading, as you seem to be stuck in a long-ago disproved theory of racial difference.

And for the record, Ann Coulter isn't a success because she's white. She's a success because (among MANY other reasons) she's a white person in a white supremacist society.


Star Spangled C...
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Joined: Sep 15 2008

Erik Redburn wrote:

Ok, but there's no shortage of white coaches who get fired for losing skids getting another crack at it, is there?   Even the best coaches and managers can only go so far with the talent they have, I think that's widely recognised. 

Ted Nolan may be a better example.  He didn't do bad with a mediocre to bad Islander team either, when he finally got hired again, but was quickly let go again when he failed to guide them to the playoffs a second time. Now hes back in the minors somewhere.

Well, even after Cito Gaston was relieved of his managerial duties, he stayed on the Blue Jays payroll in some sort of consulting / advisory capacity so his contract precluded him from going to another team. And, of course, he's now back managing the Jays.

I don't follow hockey as closely (aside from the Habs) but I thought the big issue with Ted Nolan was that Dominic Hasek really didn't get along with him and Hasek was best goalie in the league at the time and the team needed to keep him happy.

In the NFL lately black coaches have been incredibly successful.


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