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I know its bad form, but I just couldn't stifle a laugh at this statement against the backdrop of the past two weeks alone. Isn't it a little reactionary to base ones actions, or lack thereof, on what the state will manufacture on its own for the purpose of justifying its aggression, regardless of any provocation that may confront it?
Every time the corporate state is compelled to reveal its iron jaws to our polite society, each instance should be seen as an opportunity to reveal that which already exists but remains hidden until their hand is forced. So yes, our circumstances are certainly quite unlike other regions as you suggest, or even within this country for select communities, where totalitarian fangs are unrelentingly bared against the unfortunate population. Apparently we have more to lose than 'them.' Solidarity has its own lines in the sand after all, so long as we're standing on our side.
You're a lovely writer, SJ. Just thought I'd say that. Discipline is good, though. Hard, but good.
I don't mean that none of the Black Bloc fall in the above categories, in case you had trouble deciphering my sentence. I meant that immigrant workers and union members and single parents on welfare don't wear masks in order to avoid reprisal from the authorities, or their union, because of their status. That's the idiotic claim that was made above. Yes, of course, a union member that decides to join in on Black Bloc tactics will wear a mask, but not because of being a union member. Hope that clarifies my meaning.
And by the way, just because you happen to defend the window smashing and car burning, and I don't, doesn't mean you have to use words like "lie". Maybe I'm just mistaken. Maybe I have a wrong belief. A "lie" is something quite different. If you have some evidence to bear or other opinion to bring forward, do so. But don't tell me union members wear masks because of fear of retaliation. And I don't mean one guy once in Alberta somewhere, thanks very much.
I understood just fine, but you're wrong. I don't know about union members fearing reprisals from their bosses or their union leaders, but for immigrant workers and people on social assistance, I can assure you that they/we certainly do. And I'm not talking about in black blocs or smashy-smashy actions where people conceal their identity to shield themselves from the consequences of their actions. I'm talking about people masking up to prevent the state from going after them for simply speaking-out and taking a stand.
Show me a quote, please.
More laughable is to naively do the work of agent provocateurs (without pay to boot!) and imagine one is being "revolutionary" in some tiny coterie dream world that exists oblivious to operations of the propaganda system.
That's correct, you don't know. In fact, the opening post suggested that unions take reprisal against members who attend events not sanctioned by the union. That kind of anti-union slanderous propaganda, besides being a filthy lie, is prohibited by babble policy.
Yes, I'm not a fool, and I understand that non-citizen workers fear reprisals (not "immigrant workers" - why would they be more afraid than any others???). As for people on social assistance, you'll have to explain to me how being seen in a protest would lead to getting cut off. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but surely if it has, it needs to be publicized and fought. It's news to me.
But this isn't about fearing reprisals. This is about people who wear masks (and people who don't) because they plan to carry out vandalism in the course of the actual protest. To compare such people with those who fear reprisals because of their status, or simply because they stand up and speak their minds and demonstrate, is very profoundly insulting. It is exactly the kind of identification ("protesters = criminals, vandals, property-destroyers") that the state would like to make and does make daily. It is one of the key reasons why we must organize to isolate and neutralize the vandals, whether they are masked or not.
I fully agree with you. Anyone who wears a mask for fear of such reprisal has my support. But to suggest that wearing masks in such situations is widespread - or that it is in any way analogous to the smashers and burners - is factually false and deeply defamatory.
Not interested in pursuing this discussion, which began with your posts about the bank-burning. You figure it out.
Indeed, aside from intimidating the general public the mass arrest in Toronto recently probably had as much to do with creating a good list.
I don't give a fuck what you're not interested in. If you're not interested, don't put words in my mouth. You cant back your statement up, so you're a liar.
Yes, indeed, the issue should be dropped or quotes provided. Instigating counseling and "conspiracy to commit mischief" charges against people were in part based on surveillance of internet chat forums, as is clear based on Chief Blair's statements to the press. So, in my opinion accusations of this sort should be corroborated or dropped.
How about we stick to the topic, and everyone can speak for themselves?
Freedom 55 has called the opposition to the Black Bloc vandalism in G20 "an internecine war within the Left" Source. I take that as support for those tactics. Freedom 55 has been very coy in dealing with this, but the views expressed are very clear here and here and here and here and here, besides many others, beginning with the RBC arson attack.
Don't get me wrong. Freedom 55 is entitled to those views and to present them and defend them. But it would be better to do so openly, instead of using so many posts to say "you're lying" and "you don't understand me" and "you're twisting my words". Let me know if you require all the specific references.
All, I see is you derailing this thread with some assertions about what Freedom55 thinks and believes. The attack is basically ad hominem in the context of this thread, and you are bringing in a previous discussion to derail this thread. If you really want to persist in this interrogation you should add quotes to those links, as opposed asserting the fact that they support your conclusions.
Saying that a debate on tactics is "an internecine war within the Left" does not indicate support for either side, it simply asserts that there is an debate. You however, are asserting your reading that this statement amounts to support of those tactics, as a fact, and as I tried to point out, your reading, may have legal implications.
On that basis, I am asking you to find a statement by Freedom55 where he/she says they support those tactics, as opposed to inferring that they do.
I don't read all the threads and know it is possible that I miss things that are said, I would have appreciated your linking to threads where those specific things were said. I recall nothing about marbles nor any support for ripping off masks. I also wonder about your motivation for starting this thread since you have not participated in it.
While there may be reasons for masks at different times the reality is the black bloc serve only the interests of those who would oppress us and we should do everything we can to make that clear to them. My suggestion would be that the black bloc NEVER be allowed into the midst of peaceful protesters again, if they want to act independently then that is there choice.
I've been protesting for forty years and I have observed a pattern, young men and women are easy to draw into violence, they don't know their history and they believe they are inventing a new world while being suckered into reinforcing the old. It is a predictable pattern, and the reality is that by the time these young folks are in their thirties they will have children and their days of protest will largely be gone, as someone said they are not taking their four year old to what happened in Toronto. Thus another generation is lost to reacting to the oppression rather than stepping away from it (and I am not talking about going back to the land although some might) and using their life's energy to create something entirely new.
Have you given any thought to the notion that it was the peaceful protesters who were raining on the black bloc parade? Perhaps they'll disallow pacifists in their midst the next time around. See how they'll like it then.
How many were peaceful protesters? How many were black bloc? I think it is pretty clear who needs who. lol
One can only hope not for long.
Here are some quotes from the "A Debate on Protest Tactics. What works, what doesn't"
Buddy Kat
“The solution is too demask and possibly sling shot the heads of masked people with marbles. At least the infiltarator will be identified by the big bump on their head.”
Fifi
Since it's clear that the police disguise themselves as "Black Bloc Anarchists" (don't you love a recognizable brand and premade identity complete with uniform?) to start violence then anyone starting violence should be viewed with suspicion and stopped, unmasked and documented by protestors.
Bacchus
“I like the idea of no protesters at all or entirely peaceful ones who hand over to the police (while filming it) ANYONE who does a violent/vandalistic act. Um officers, we handed over ten guys who started throwing shit and breaking windows. Did you charge them all? Yes who are they? no why not?”
Green Grouch
“And should we need to give a reason for banadana yanking, it's clear: you cover your face, we assume you're a cop. Montebello proved the need to think like this and I think it's a great way to shut down the self righteous bullshit we get from some of the masked wonders who actually aren't cops. I can see doing this in the moment because I can trust my own eyes and (more importantly) those of my affinity group. It would need to be done in a group, though, and I for one would want some intervention training.”
Unionist
“There are no "good protesters vs. bad protesters". There are only protesters. Then, there are police agents, provocateurs, and common vandals - very very few of them - who must be isolated and controlled so that our struggle can succeed. Either we crush the provocations, or the provocations will be used as a pretext to crush us. If you don't condemn the assholes, masses of people will (correctly) conclude that they speak and act for you. This isn't rocket science.
And I strongly suggest that everyone call them "assholes" or similar terms of abuse. That way, the few real people tempted to join in the "fun" will be discouraged by peer pressure.”
Nice try, bineshii. You found one bizarre comments about masks (from Green Grouch) - one bad-taste joke (from Buddy Kat) - and the rest were about assholes committing vandalism. I stand by my comment which you quoted above, which, you will notice, has nothing to do with masks or no masks.
If you want to say: "It's horrible that people are calling for copcar burners and window smashers to be neutralized or handed over to the police" - say so. Don't hide behind the mask.
I started reading the "A Debate on Protest Tactics. What works, What Doesn't" thread because I figured the rabble crowd is different from my usual internet clicking ground, and wanted to check it out. While there is lots of food for thought, there was also an overwhelming sense of hostility based on the fear of agent provocateurs -this fear justifying behaviour that is -to me anyway- scary. From the most extreme case of slingshotting people with marbles and then identifying them by their wounds, to unionists [that's her name] command to stop even thinking of these potential provocateurs as human beings and define them mentally only as derogatory objects worthy of abuse.
I wouldn't say that these sorts of comments are held universally by other people on this forum, in fact many people openly objected to violent action against mask wearers or even vandals and rioters, but this violence is couched in a wider tendency of provocateur fear. Provocateurs are seen around every corner, provocateurs who want to destroy and harm innocent victims. And the evidence this fear is based on is largely fallacious.
According to this provocateur fear, agent provocateurs and vandals are the problem, but anyone in black, black block or wearing a mask is either a potential provocateur/vandal or is providing cover for them. Which seems to give license to indiscriminately attack anyone who appears suspicious or associated with someone who appears suspicious.
Lots of people wear masks for lots of reasons. The examples I gave are composites of real life situations, that have had real life consequences. Why did I use composites -because something told me to change the stories a bit to protect the identities of the people involved, and also because I have encountered far more instances that that list but condensed it for space. You can believe it or not, it's your choice.
@ bineshii
You're talking about two different things. I have no problem with people who feel they have to protect their anonymity in a protest.
I do have a problem with people who wear a mask so they can commit violent acts, or threaten people.
I also have a problem because that disguise creates the perfect cameoflage for cops to infiltrate and undermine protest.
And needless to say, I have a big problem with cops who do wear that mask and commit that violence.
It's the violence I have a problem with, and if I saw someone threatening people or breaking up stuff I would do what I could to prevent it or turn them in without a thought. I oppose police using those tactics against legitimate protest; how can I justify it just because it is done by someone who claims to share my views?
Perhaps you should read a bit more and try a bit more to understand. Let me make my view clear.
I have nothing whatsoever against anyone wearing masks at a public demonstration.
Police provocateurs operate as nice, peaceful, gentle souls within progressive organizations just as much as when they jump up and down on cop cars.
It is irrelevant whether a window smasher, car burner, or bank arsonist is a cop or not. It is their actions which harm the movement - both by (1) providing a pretext to police and state repression, but far more importantly, (2) because they alienate millions of people whose interest lie with the protestors but who are disgusted by the juvenile destructive useless antics.
So you see, your whole rant is mistaken. It's not about masks. It's not about police provocateurs. It's about stopping any possible association of our mass movements with asinine actions like those which the MSM and police used to such good effect.
Try again.
ETA: I crossposted with 6079 - thank you for helping to clear up bineshii's confusion.