babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
Dear Polunitic,
I grew up in a land of consensus and not your adversarial 50% psuedo democracy. I'm sorry if I've not been able to meet your challenges to a fire fight but I've other responsibilities too. There is an old quaker book about consensus written by a jew that will be available at your nearest meeting house.
If your Union has those rules to suppress dissent I would think you should either change your union or change unions.
Earnest
dissent, oh thank god; written by an atheist
More BB Conspiracy:
G20 Toronto Riots Perpetrated By Agents Provocateurs of the Police
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=20110
"Maybe we have to change our tactics..."
The Black Bloc acts of vandalism and destruction are deplorable not because the cops used them as a pretext. They are deplorable on their own merit. Acts of violence and lawlessness in a civil society are wrong, period.
I hope that people who are interested in social justice will always stand up for what's right, not only when it suits them. Otherwise they are not really interested in social justice but more in grabbing power themselves instead of it being in the hands of its current possesers. And I understand that some forces who claim to be in the left movement have this objective and I'm opposed to them just as much as I'm opposed to those who abuse power under the right banner.
"Acts of violence and lawlessness in a civil society are wrong, period."
Some alternative views by activist Jaggi Singh etc.
G20 Capitalism is Attacked in the Streets of Toronto
http://www.rabble.ca/news/2010/07/g20-capitalism-attacked-streets-toronto
"there were cheers of support amidst the sounds of glass smashing, as targeted property destruction of well known corporate criminals continued down Bay Street.."
G20 Arrests: 'We're Still At a Raw Moment'
http://www.mediacoop.ca/story/g20-arrests-were-still-raw-moment/4075
"It's all meant to scare people away from participation in active social justice movements.."
The G20 in Toronto: An Open Letter to Family and Friends Who Weren't There
http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/blog/niki-thorne/4208
"Whether you support or condemn the actions of the black block, these actions are not equivalent to the largest mass arrests in Canadian history.."
I like Jaggi but in no way do his views represent those of the labour movement. At least not the one that I know. Are you arguing that anarchists are part of the left? The labour movement?
Why be apologitic and say: yes we may condemn actions of the BB but they are not as bad as the actions of the cops. Why not be forthright and say acts of vandalism and lawlessness are wrong, period. Quickly put this whole BB issue behind us and move on to the issues that matter.
I quite agree that Jaggi doesn't "represent the labour movement'. Nor was I arguing that anarchists are part of the left or the labour movement though there are those that are and will. I certainly am not apologizing for BB actions, nor should anyone else in my view. As for moving 'on to the issues that matter' - yes most definitely!
The fact of the matter is that summits are one-offs as are bb tactics. I think we sometimes overgeneralize and get overly doomsdayish about the longer term impact of these one-offs on day to day organizing and resistance. It will probably be 20 years before the next summit comes to Toronto. Yes we must defend civil liberties, hold the authorities to account and ensure that all those arrested have access to the best legal defense available. But it is incorrect to assume that every demo from now on will be characterized by police brutality and abuses of civil liberties. Vested interests have a stake in changing the channel away from austerity and cutbacks.
But on a related note, I attended a local street festival on the weekend. It was way over-policed with a strong presence on every corner. There were also horses crapping on the road in the dark while thousands of people were enjoying the music, food and festivities. I can't help but wonder if that was payback to my local councillor who was absent when City Council voted "unanimously" to commend the T.O. cops for their performance at the G20. "Shit on us and we'll shit on your parade".
No one at City Council asked why couldn't 19,000 officers arrest a single vandal in the act?
Just how CLEVER are these Black Bloc'ers? Perhaps one of rabble's resident anarchists can best shed light on this!
Well it could be, acts like that are certainly not beyond people's ability to play petty politics.
It could also be part of the desensitizing of the masses to lower their resistence to seeing the manifestation of the police state, whereby the "police" are always there becomes "okay", as people start to see them as not threatening, but ever present. Not realizing the underlaying threat in a conscious manner..
Wow, love the language, Unionist. Especially the word "neutralize". Funny cuz I've heard the owners of nasty corporations use the police and scabs to neutralize labour unions, the right to strike, and workers.
Come to think of it, ya....Maybe you should start to "neutralize and expel" people in general society that you don't like. Geez, that worked wonderfully in Europe, Unionist, why don't you start there as an example. You could also begin studying how white colonizers here neutralized and expelled First Nations off their lands. Good luck with this little project of yours!
continued over here
statica wrote:
Come to think of it, ya....Maybe you should start to "neutralize and expel" people in general society that you don't like. Geez, that worked wonderfully in Europe, Unionist, why don't you start there as an example. You could also begin studying how white colonizers here neutralized and expelled First Nations off their lands. Good luck with this little project of yours!
statica, taking what Unionist said and linking it to the European experience, (yes we all know what you mean) as well as the genocidal practices against First Nations, and then hanging that around Unionists neck is far beyond ok. Disagree with him all you want about the subject at hand, but don't go there. You can do better.
Closing this as remind has started a part 3 in activism.