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I agree with your points on public transportation and people looking for a quick tech fix.
However public transportation is only a solution to one part of the problem as well. It's also mostly an urban solution.
What about our transport system that gets the zillions of goods to the people using the public transport. Then there is the the production of those goods. Right now the feeding of all of those users is entirely dependent on the internal combustion engine. It doesn't stop at just vehicles either. All levels of our current food system is a fossil fuel hog and burner, from the production of fertilizer and on through to transporting of the finished goods.
Then of course there's people like me where public transport, beyond carpooling is more then likely to never be an option for daily functioning. Like hybrds if EV's become cheaper and more available I would look at something useful and viable for some light functioning. I'd still need some sort of 'workhorse' though. They are making hybrid trucks now which offer better fuel economy but they are not cheap. I haven't seen anything on the EV horizon, or at least not at any mass scale, that would provide the power necessary for more then light functioning and transport. Great if all you are doing is driving to work and picking up groceries. Not to useful if you have to haul produce to market or a ton of feed from the farm co-op.
I'm looking forward to the offers to come and be peasents on our farm and for people to hook themselves up to the plough to pull it as was done in the pre-industrial golden age where everything was perfect. Sure use horses you say - well horses are expensive, cost a lot to feed and only put out as much good energy a the quaility of the feed they receive. Up with people power!
You'll have to explain how that works.
It happens that I promote public transportation in NS. But that does not really make any difference.
Most solutions are complex, and all the pieces that people might work on or promote, only overlap. There is no rule somewhere that you can only talk about one piece of the solution if you talk about all of them- though babblers do often act as if there is such a rule.
You are saying here that EVs are part of the problem. Thats simply incorrect since they are a piddly novelty now an for the next several years. You COULD argue that it is to be expected that they WILL make our problems worse... but no one has. [And please dodnt try to do it as just an assertion.]
(responding to post #61)
Or a ton of firewood - weekly - for the wood burning furnace. Roads are not maintained here, and trucks, both two and four wheel drive, are popular, but so are ATVs, both the small ones (250 - 500 cc), and the unnecessarily big block (800 cc) ATVs, which in my opinion are an obscenity - same as big block skidoos (800 - 1000 cc). My skidoo is a 380 cc, and can go anywhere - at less cost and less gas - that the bigger machines can go, and is less likely - because it's much lighter, to fall through the ice.
ETA: big block cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger/Charger are obscenities as well. Don't get me started.
Apropos of what Life is saying: I live on a farm that has been in the family since the land was cleared. And I know what all the different fields were used for. It took a hell of a lot of land, and a hell of a lot or work to feed just a couple horses, to do the work that a dinky little tractor can do.
Horse logging is a good idea because of the agility and the kind of forestry that it facilitates. But horses as a blanket replacement; or even worse, horses as a practical means of transportation: to hell with that romantic crap.
We cant keep using that tractor like we have been. Fine. I couldn't agree more. Since I dont really like working on machines I'm not going to be anywhere near the first of early adoptors and adapters to have an essentially do-it-yourself electric or hybrid tractor. But I know that having them, and powering them without fossil fuel powered electricity is not rocket science.
:D
A couple of years ago when I was figuring out my own transport I actually did a cost analysis as well as the cost vs labor analysis on horse power vs a truck. Horses beyond just the labor and time involved would cost more. Beyond just the issues of manual labor and time involved and as you know 'time' on a farm really does mean money the current system is so far away from supporting their use at a mass scale. It was a time when farmers used horses they were mostly growing the horses feed themselves as well as supplying feed to the townies in their local community. The population demographics were also very different in terms of urban and rural. How 'going back' whether forced or otherwise would translate to changes in where demographically things sit now is quite the epic thought experiment. Urbans areas would be totally screwed on all sorts of fronts. And unless things evolved into some sort of forced labor system (that's why your use of peasants) made me laugh rural areas would fair better realtively because they are just physically closer and better set up to revert back to some sort of modern day form of such a system.
I've seen some experiments with electric and even solar powered tractors. They are all however being used for small scale use and not production for the masses. I also know a couple of people who are expermenting with older and modified horse drawn equipment for use with a what is essentially a modified atv or 'mini' tractor set-up. Their experiments are not directed towards any sort of mass production though, it's self sufficiency and production for their very localized community. I also know a few that are looking seriously at horses. Again though, self sufficiency and very localized production is the goal and not producing for the masses.
LTJ: "Clearly, as you promote EVs as a part of the solution without ever mentioning public transportation, they are a HUGE part of the problem.
They allow the self-involved to go on believing that there's a technical solution around the bend that will allow them to continue their current lifestyle without interruption or any more inconvenience than getting out of their Hummer and into their new EV."
Such clarification, LTJ, cuts mercifully through the generalizations. The rural sector have added more to think about, here. And, of course, the economic factor tops up the reasons why the giddy anticipation of a "techno-fix" can be laid to rest except for the wealthy few who now lead the charge of Homo sapiens' self-destructing tendencies.
I was being a bit tongue in cheek of course but I hope my essential point was clear. You see I have actually used horse labour on our farm in the past (when I was still young, energetic and naive). It just didn't work for 90 per cent of stuff. There is a reason that many of the first adaptors of steam and then internal combustion engines were farmers. Sure we could feed ourselves with horses, but forget feeding very many people beyond us.
We have been using small tractors (under 100 HP) for some time and can get much more done, and here's the important thing, much better crops that are harvested at higher quailty. I always laugh at the romanticism of this stuff. I live in an area with a lot of Old Order Mennonites and a much smaller Amish population. Those folks use horses for a few things like going to town (unless they need a long ride) some stooking and manure spreading (on snow by the way something most of us stopped doing for good reason long ago), but they get others, including me, to come in and do an awful lot of the 'heavy' work like ploughing, planting, harvesting. Many of them are adopting older mechanical technology (such as using a small square baler - but loading the wagons by hand) with the use of tractors. One of the problems is that many of these folks continue to use old steel wheels - which have these little projections for grip that tear the heck out of area roads and creates a bit of hard feelings. So the folks using this technology the most in our society and have a regligious imperative to continue that use are finding ways around it. I await the day when enough generations have passed and the older Bishops pass on and we see widespread adoption of KCars for use- painted black with steel wheels.
The moment I can buy a decent, affordable electric tractor I can power through my already present solar panels I will be in line getting one. Food production is not a simple thing and unless all those urbanites are going to try a revolutionary, armed take over of rural areas for squatter farmsteads (sort of like was done to First Nations) we are going to have to find ways to create and adapt new technologies to new realities. And that doesn't even get into issues like fertilizer and other things needed to grow food above a subsistence level. And yay I know someone is going to say, but urban agriculture... Urban Ag is all well and good and I have helped wannabe urban farmers as a presenter at courses and they can reduce some of the problems with big, industrial ag, but it will never, ever be the solution. Urban density forbids it, and rightfully so because land should not be over farmed, it needs rest periods and transistions or you burn it out and reduce its fertility. There are no simple solutions -sorry about that.
Exactly.
I don't have a problem admiting that until I move into the area I did have some rather romantic notion about what the Mennonites and Amish were doing. Namely that they somehow manage to keep the old ways and survive just fine. They do well for what they do but they are hardly separated. They just made different choices. They depend on fossil fuels and the industrial system both directly and indirectly as well. You provide a concrete example of one way. The first time I went into a mennonite store, I don't know what I was expecting, perhaps some sort of back in time pioneer experience. :) Nope it was all the same 'made in china' products and every non electric Starfrit gadget that I think exists. Great if you're looking for a only hand powered commercial filter though. Beyond that it's quite a regular occurance to see a van and sometimes a small bus being unloaded in the Wal Mart and Home Depot parking lots. That sort of thing pretty much killed any romantic illusions I had held. :D
I can't remember the last time I saw a horse up close, actually.
But you will notice the absence of colour and chrome on those vehicles eh?
About 20 years back the (province?) required that all milk producers install coolers. A HUGE tizzy developed, since Hydro was NOT accetable, until long and agonizing theological searching resulted in the installation of generators on each farm. They are a practical folk, survivors, down through the centuries.
Speaking technologically, tractors are ideal for earl adoption of electric drive. For a couple of things: weight of batteries is less of an issue [and integrating that with body/frame concerns], and interchangeable battery packs is more practical.
But I'm sure it will be longer before you see them. As in the discussion of auto compamies above, it takes deep pockets and losing money for a long time to bring in 'off-the-shelf' EVs. Thats fine when the near future market for them is huge. There is no such early potential market for tractors. Possibly, the easier technolgy issues, and that around the world there is no small market of potential early adopting farmers, might trump all that. I havent seen any indication of that, but I'm not THAT close or comprehensive an observor that I would necessarily know if there was a nasceat push towards mass produced small electric tractors.
Agreed. I would like to see the development of as much urban ag as possible. When I see any bit of lawn I automatically think what a waste. The development of small scale urban ag will help but it is far from any encompassing solution just due to the sheer numbers involved and space available or at least not even close the current levels and types of food people expect to eat and when they expect to eat it. One estimate with our current system puts it that on average it takes 45,000 sq feet of land to feed one person who is an average has an meat and veggie diet, it takes 10,000 to provide one person a primarily veggie diet. If you look towards more bio-intensive forms of growing the estimate can go down to as low as 2000 to 4000 sq ft for a sustaining veggie diet. (Not necessarily a desired diet though because what grows depends on where one lives) That estimate is very very general though and doesn't necessarily take into account regional and climate differences. So anyways best case scenario 4000 sq feet per person. Times that 63 by 63 foot plot by a million or two and picture of what's needed becomes more clear. Also urban ag, by nature is very people labor intensive. People labor isn't necessily a bad thing though the gym lobby might have issues. :) Horses don't fair well on roof-tops. People labor does however cost $$$ if you aren't resorting to some sort of slave wage so there is a economic factor. While closer to home growing and buying (direct) can and does cut out the middle levels which currently make up so much of the 'cost of food' whether it's a urban or rural farmer moving towards a more people or animal labor forms of production isn't going to make food costs go down. Then as there is now the whole storing, processing and preserving economy which has to be factored in.
Non of this is surmountable and I'm all for as much work being done as possible in this area. It's just not going to solve the overriding issue of food and eating being a fossil fuel dependant hog.
A brief warning for anyone contemplating the deal with Hydro, where you sell electricity to them. They offer a very good rate, a bit higher than you're paying for their electricity now, if we don't count all those extras - and it sounds good. BUT You have to shoulder the entire investment - $10-15,000 for starters - and the contract is for less time than it would take to recoup, during which time, their rates can be raised any amount and yours can't. After that, they can offer whatever they want and you have no options. And, of course, they can terminate the contract with impunity (Like you could afford to sue Hydro, right?) while you're stuck. I wouldn't touch it.
I would, however, improve and expand the solar system we have. It's very modest: two panels (15 years old), four batteries (new last spring). It runs our lights and the three laptop computers and wood-working tools most of the time (when there is a lot of snow, we give it a rest), tv and vcr in summer (the inverter and long wire waste too much power to use on short days) When/if we come by a little more money, we'll fix those problems. Unfortunately, we're in a hollow, so windmill is not very practical. I'd still like to try a little one on the antenna tower, once they're available. If we can't store the surplus, so what? For millions of years the sun's been shining and all it did was create and sustain life.
Great post, absentia. I'll go looking for affordable solar panels soon, and learn how to actually use them.
Well the way I look at it is that regardless of whether I can personally get to the point of providing all my power needs on site, unless I'm also 100% self sufficient and never have to leave home to get and do anything that I'm still depending on powered grid for even some of my most basic survival needs. If I'm doing it just for the individual economic factor then that's one thing. If I'm doing it for that plus other factors, like lessening the overall fossil fuel load and ecological factor as basic principle that takes it to more community and global perspective. It's about more then just me. If I have excess then why waste it. Sure I might not get paid properly for it and sure hydro and some other big corp might some $$$ advantage from it but at this point in time I feel the need to 'lighten the load' so to speak, even in a miniscule way, outweighs the $$$ factor of a little excess travelling off into the wider world of wires. Besides I can just imagine that my excess is flowing through the grid and used by someone whos ethics and ecological concern makes them desire to do the same but finacially just can't afford it at this time. Perhaps even a small return for the more likely then not fossil fueled manufacture of the the equipment that allowed me to be self power providing in the first place.
If one has excess, then why waste it if it is possible for it to be used?
Too alturistic? Possibly but sometimes I think that "self sufficiency" in the eco movement gets turned too much into an individualized experience. In reality there is really no such thing unless one lives back in a bush and only ever uses tools they fashion from rocks and trees. "Self sufficient' or mixed farms for example, romanticized or not were never and will likely never be self sufficient in an individual sense. It's a community affair.
If Quebec Hydro goes ahead with rate increases, then it's in my interest to use solar power to cut costs down - if indeed solar works out for me on a cost efficiency basis. I haven't looked at the start-up costs yet.
Of course it is and I'm in no way knocking that as a factor or even one of the primary motivating factors. It's completely sensible. Increasing power rates are a factor in making individual site power production a more cost effective possibility. If the numbers work and over the long term money is saved then yeah it's obvious thing to do from an individual perspective.
I'd love to do it, and once my property taxes are out of the way, I'll look into it. It's not just the potential of cost savings, but also the 'rebel' factor!
EQ: " I would like to see the development of as much urban ag as possible. When I see any bit of lawn I automatically think what a waste."
The sons and daughters of the soil work with land that has been under cultivation (in Ontario) for perhaps 125 to 150 years, and with care, has maintained good "tilth" (organic matter ? ).
The urban plot is composed of a mixture of glacial till (gravel and sand) left behind by a builder/developer who scraped away all the topsoil for sale elsewhere. One inch of indifferent soil was left to support sod...hence the lucrative business in home lawn and garden care.
After some 17 years of composting (and buying) I've managed tio "create" a 15 x 20 foot vegetable garden - there's little lawn left - which this year gave me potatoes (I've given away 20 pounds but still have 10 lb. left) ; carrots (still have 7 or 8 pounds of the best ones in a crisper (the pre-nibbled were consimed first); tomatoes (I'll never use all of the frozen sauce); zuccini (kept the neighbours happy) and cooking onions (they will last me the entire year. And the only fertilizers were a small box of bloodmeal and one of mixed blood and bone. Oh, and two small bags of composted cow manure for planting rows.
The small plot goes with a small energy-efficient house (a semi), that someday will be, hopefully, heatable with a couple of big candles (exaggeration here), so I can't do better in the self-sufficiency dept. (2 maples were planted and now shade the front all afternoon).
Still, it means I can be independent of the gym from late April through into September. At least, that's part of the rationalization.
So stick around, sons and daughters. This city slicker is always agitating on your behalf...likes to eat!
And have you heard the one...how you can always tell the friendless person in the grocery section? ANS. The one looking at zuccini...
Good to see someone with experience with photovoltaics, absentia.
Have you considered a thermal collector for water pre-heating? Depending on the number of users, they tend to make economic sense where water is heated electrically.
That's wonderful. You explanation of what you had to do to 'create' your small plot in your setting is on point and part of my 'as possible' caveat. When I lived in the city and did some work gardening myself and working in areas that did promote urban ag initiatives as you point out with your experience it most often it does not involve digging down into a lawn. If it occurs in a older park area then there is more likely to be at a semi decent soil layer. Building up is necessary or digging down and ammending and ammending and ammending. It still strikes me when I drive by large scale housing developments during the soil scraping part of the process. It's full of irony really. Here you have Meadow Vale or Apple Grove but we're going to scrape that part off, take it away and leave an superficial illusion of green behind. You can buy it back though. :)
It's not just an urban thing though. My area is a quarrying region. The stone is very near the surface even on what looks like lush fields of grass. It's one of the reasons you see more livestock then crop farming around here. Anyways just down the road a new quarry operation is going in. Before that it was an old farm with a herd of pastured beef cattle. Over the summer I watched the dozers in there scraping up the acres of soil to get to the bedrock. Nice soil too, dark and rich with lots of organic matter. Smell, texture and taste. Wouldn't be so bad if that soil did go somewhere else to be used but a good portion of it was just mounded up around the permimeter. It's done that way for a number of reasons, security, no need to fence and for asthetic reasons, hide the ugly operation. Still I drive by and get a pang at all the goodness it could have been used for.
I have a thing for good soil. It's precious.
The joke here is when your popping in for a visit or into the store don't leave your car unlocked during zucchini season.
I didn't bother growing any this year. Still had more then I needed.
I wish I had better soil - I'm going to send a sample out for analysis, because last year my garden flopped.
We have considered, and are considering, just about everything. Have some acquaintances who went off grid - built a whole new, purpose-designed house! - well into their retirement years, but i don't think we have the energy to do it or time to enjoy it. With us, as with most people, i suspect, it's a question of money. Since moving here, we've made incremental improvements. Water heating has been on-demand propane for 10 years, but we're still hoping to build a greenhouse with pipes in. Tricky business for DIY; need to hire help.
Eliza Q - I'm too ticked-off with Ontario Hydro and the way all that s'it went down to want to help them rip off the next guy. I want the whole system broken down to manageable, sensible, local networks. But i would be happy to share excess with my neighbours, at no charge.
(uuurrggh! Major deja vu jolt. Have we had this conversation already? More than once?)
I'm not sure. I don't think so but we could have. No worries there. I feel for where your coming from regardless. The whole thing has been quite the smochzzle and I know a number of people personally that have been dealing with it too. It screwed up a couple of projects that people had put a lot of time into too.
It's good to have this conversation more than once, because someone will always pop in with new insights as well as updated technology.
Just wanted to let you all know about a documentary you'll be interested to see. It's called X-CARS and it airs Thursday Jan 6th on Discovery Channel Canada. 8pm ET and 9pm PT. It's about a group of guys from Maple Ridge, BC who built an innovative (mostly) electric car called the eVaro and competed in the Progressive Insurance Automotive X PRIZE competition. Check it out at www.x-cars.ca
I'll look for it - sounds interesting.