babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
What I am still looking for is a specific and detailed answer as to why Kairos was denied funding. Sure the government has the power and right to do such a thing- but Kairos has reportedly been waiting since March for an answer as to what the denial was based on (or at least the excuse). I think we all know the answer, but I would like to see the opposition not forget about Kairos and the very vulnerable people they help around the world.
The point I was trying to make was that authoritarianism is an evil that must not be tolerated......
...NAZI Germany is the best lesson we have of how a modern pluralistic liberal democratic society slides toward authoritarianism.
With all due respect, pre-Hitler Germany was not a modern pluralistic liberal democratic society. It was the result of punitive reparations forced upon it by the League of Nations's Treaty of Versailles.
With all due respect that's not entirely right either. There was a German revolution on November 9, 1918 that saw the Kaiser flee Germany. On the 11th Matthias Erzberger, (a leading figure from the Catholic-focused Centre Party's left wing) representing Germany signed the armistice agreement near Compiegne ending the war. Erzberger was a leading critic of the war in its latter stages. For his actions he was assassinated in 1921 by the Organization Consul by the way. He is a pretty interesting guy and fought hard against capitalist control in Germany as Finance Minister and if you are interested in the era he is worth reading about. In fact I know you can write an entire 4th year history paper about him At least you could way back in the day.
So Germany was a fledgling, struggling progressive democracy, however, you are also right to cite the damage done to the Weimer Republic by the treaty of Versailles in October 1919. So to sum up in your thread drift you are both right and you are both wrong. So how about we leave it at that.
Well, I wasn't referring to pre-WWI, in which case I would've cited the revolution of 1848. However, I was commenting on the state of Germany prior to Adolf Hitler's becoming Chancellor, and the ensuing supremacy of the Nazi state.
Well then, again with the greatest respect you are still wrong. The Weimar Republic was most definetly a pluralistic democracy, or tried to be, given it was under the shadow of the ToV and hyper-inflation, and armed ulta right death squads pre-dating the NSP by several years and armed ultra left death squads too. Some of the reforms of capital by Erzberger were quite a bit ahead of their time and Germany was on the road to becoming a more open and less militaristic society- which is partly what propelled the anit-modernity NSP and their allies. So agian, both are right, both are wrong and besides this is major thread drift I am contributing too. (But I don't often get to bring up all this stuff I spent a year of my life immersed in). Sorry I'll shut up now.
I think we should start doing a better job teaching ethics in our society. This isn't about votes, this is about integrity.
If we lived in an ethical society, there would be no questions concerning these kinds of acts of duplicity.
It's very difficult to talk about ethics when people at the top behave in flagrantly unethical ways and get away with it, while people at the bottom are punished for them. For example, in Winnipeg, Sam Katz received a report just prior to the election that Winnipeg didn't have enough 911 operators, so he turned that into a campaign promise. How unethical is that? Most of us are expected to fix things that are not up to standard under penalties that can include termination. Or look at the Bryant case in Toronto, RCMP Corporal Monte Robinsion, RCMP Officer Geoff Mantler in Kelowna and several other cases of police misconduct, public calls for assassination of Julian Assange, and other fraudulent behaviour, including at the high level banks in the US.
That's why I generally roll my eyes when politicians talk about "cracking down on crime." They need to set a better example.
If Harper was the leader of the official opposition, he would already be taking steps to withdraw the confidence of the House from the government.
True. Bottom line is that the Opposition parties have to be willing to have the courage to pull the plug on Harper and go to an election regardless of wether the polls are good. If they don't challenge Harper over this, he will cotinue to do whatever he wants for another year and there will be no point in the Opposition parties complaining about it.
The fact is that without a majority, Harper can't dictate whether or not we go to the polls.
NorthReport wrote:
... if it looks like the opposition parties are going to defeat his government, and he doesn't an election, he is quite capable of offering a concession to just one of the opposition parties,
If Harper needs other parties to agree to his concessions, he, by definition, does not have the power to dictate whether or not we go to the polls.
Michael Ignatieff will decide the date of our next election.
Once again you're wrong about who can and who can't dictate the date of our next election. Ignatieff is in no position to unilaterally decide the date of our next election. However, Ignatieff, Layton, and Duceppe could come together and decide the date of our next election. As far as we know maybe they already have.
NorthReport wrote:
PS How's Bev doing these days? I'm just shocked, I tell you shocked, to hear she is still in Cabinet.
I'm just shocked, I tell you shocked, that the National Post has editorials saying Oda should be removed from cabinet while a self-professed NDP supporter is happy she's still in cabinet. I'm just gobsmacked, I tell you gobsmacked, that someone's trying to start up an "NDP'ers for Harper" caucus within the NDP.
Oda's removal is necessary, but it alone will not create the kind of coherent international aid funding policies that Canadians demand, and groups like KAIROS which are trying to improve lives around the world, deserve.
This furor raises a number of questions. Did Oda initially approve the funding, as her signature on the document suggests? That’s what some suspect. “None of this washes,” Green Party Leader Elizabeth May said this week. “The most plausible explanation . . . is that Bev Oda signed the approval and the “NOT” was inserted subsequently.”
Did Harper or his office overrule her? Has Oda been a loyal trooper, carrying the can for her boss? Is that why Harper is defending the indefensible?
And on what grounds did the government overrule CIDA in the first place? That’s still not clear.
These are serious questions that go to the heart of government accountability and public trust. So far Harper has brushed them off. Canadians deserve answers.
The way to understand the conservative moral system is to consider a strict father family. The father is The Decider, the ultimate moral authority in the family. His authority must not be challenged.
...
Facts that are inconsistent with the authority of conservatism must be ignored or denied or explained away. To protect and extend conservative values themselves, the devil's own means can be used again conservatism's immoral enemies, whetherlies, intimidation, torture, or even death, say, for women's doctors.
This explains how we've reached the point where the act of lying itself is now being explained away on Parliament Hill.
This article should be required reading for anyone interested in understandings the undepinning of Canada's Conservative Party.
Lying has been owned by the Liberals since the beginning of time. All I'm seeing here is that the Conservatives are better liars and the Liberals are jealous.
Well it's a wrap!
Aide stamped Bev Oda signature on funding memo
You seem very happy at the prospect that the Conservatives will get away with lying to Parliament. Maybe the only thing that would be better is is if the Cons win 225 seats to the Liberals 4 seats?
Now that's a Conservative talking point. Literally.
senior government officials sent a background document Saturday to members of the Conservative caucus to outline how the controversial memo — which political critics say was “doctored” — was actually prepared.
I keep trying to tell ya but if it makes you happy to bury your head in the sand go for it. Just don't be surprised when the election results come in. Pleaase don't say what happened?
Lost generation haunts Liberals
Liberal MPs run their ridings like McDonald's franchises: each with the same brand but independently owned and not open to new blood. This has killed the primary life source for any political organization - fresh ideas from new faces, the grassroots.
Many ridings are no longer true Liberal ridings, they simply "belong" to the MPs who have represented them for years. This has been good for Liberal leaders because the seats were won regardless of the leader. But when those MPs leave, the ridings are up for grabs, as recently was the case in Vaughan.
Replacing Ignatieff is an option, but as a Liberal strategist told me last week, "Who can replace him?"
Those available are, politically speaking, too old and not needed, while those who are needed are too young, and thus not ready. In between, there's the lost generation.
The challenge for the Liberal party is to find a solution before the fake face of the young Dorian Gray morphs into the decaying picture hidden in the attic of Stornoway.
I keep trying to tell ya but if it makes you happy to bury your head in the sand go for it. Just don't be surprised when the election results come in. Pleaase don't say what happened?
Lost generation haunts Liberals
Liberal MPs run their ridings like McDonald's franchises: each with the same brand but independently owned and not open to new blood. This has killed the primary life source for any political organization - fresh ideas from new faces, the grassroots.
Many ridings are no longer true Liberal ridings, they simply "belong" to the MPs who have represented them for years. This has been good for Liberal leaders because the seats were won regardless of the leader. But when those MPs leave, the ridings are up for grabs, as recently was the case in Vaughan.
Replacing Ignatieff is an option, but as a Liberal strategist told me last week, "Who can replace him?"
Those available are, politically speaking, too old and not needed, while those who are needed are too young, and thus not ready. In between, there's the lost generation.
The challenge for the Liberal party is to find a solution before the fake face of the young Dorian Gray morphs into the decaying picture hidden in the attic of Stornoway.
It is this kind of mentality that is going to put the Conservatives into a majority position. Can't we be a little smarter than this absurdness.
JKR wrote:
You seem very happy at the prospect that the Conservatives will get away with lying to Parliament. Maybe the only thing that would be better is is if the Cons win 225 seats to the Liberals 4 seats?
Now that's a Conservative talking point. Literally.
senior government officials sent a background document Saturday to members of the Conservative caucus to outline how the controversial memo — which political critics say was “doctored” — was actually prepared.
The Harper PMO is hoping you won’t give a tinker’s damn about Bev Oda (who?) and Kairos (what?). I’ve done enough TV panels with Conservative strategists over the years to know that whenever a scandal rears its ugly head, their standard line is: “Nothing to see here, move along...."
Since announcing that he would not seek re-election, Liberal MP Keith Martin has been searing in his criticism of the present situation. “I’ve never seen morale so low or Parliament so dysfunctional in more than 17 years of being there,” he says. “There’s an overwhelming sense of futility, disappointment and sadness among most of the MPs who are there.” Martin is unmatched in tone, but is not alone in his concerns. One MP uses the term “farcical” to describe the process of debate in the House. “I think the vast majority of MPs are interested in playing a bigger role,” says Conservative MP Michael Chong, “in having greater authority and autonomy to execute their roles.”
Martin is explicit in assigning blame. He laments for those who surround party leaders, the “fairly young, ambitious, rabidly partisan individuals who often treat MPs with utter disdain.” The incentives, he says, are backwards. “Rabid partisanship is rewarded,” he says. “Overweening and excessive party discipline has disempowered members of Parliament and forced them to pay utter homage to the leaderships of their party, instead of their true bosses, which are the people that sent them there.”
There are, by Martin’s telling, two particularly worrisome results of the system as it is: the important debates it does not allow Parliament to have and the untold number of individuals it discourages from taking part. “We’re sending a very sad and sorry message to the bright and the young,” he says, “that their skills are not going to be used to the best of their abilities if they go into federal politics.”
What I am still looking for is a specific and detailed answer as to why Kairos was denied funding. Sure the government has the power and right to do such a thing- but Kairos has reportedly been waiting since March for an answer as to what the denial was based on (or at least the excuse). I think we all know the answer, but I would like to see the opposition not forget about Kairos and the very vulnerable people they help around the world.
Thanks Boom Boom.
With all due respect, pre-Hitler Germany was not a modern pluralistic liberal democratic society. It was the result of punitive reparations forced upon it by the League of Nations's Treaty of Versailles.
With all due respect that's not entirely right either. There was a German revolution on November 9, 1918 that saw the Kaiser flee Germany. On the 11th Matthias Erzberger, (a leading figure from the Catholic-focused Centre Party's left wing) representing Germany signed the armistice agreement near Compiegne ending the war. Erzberger was a leading critic of the war in its latter stages. For his actions he was assassinated in 1921 by the Organization Consul by the way. He is a pretty interesting guy and fought hard against capitalist control in Germany as Finance Minister and if you are interested in the era he is worth reading about. In fact I know you can write an entire 4th year history paper about him
At least you could way back in the day.
So Germany was a fledgling, struggling progressive democracy, however, you are also right to cite the damage done to the Weimer Republic by the treaty of Versailles in October 1919. So to sum up in your thread drift you are both right and you are both wrong. So how about we leave it at that.
Well, I wasn't referring to pre-WWI, in which case I would've cited the revolution of 1848. However, I was commenting on the state of Germany prior to Adolf Hitler's becoming Chancellor, and the ensuing supremacy of the Nazi state.
Well then, again with the greatest respect you are still wrong. The Weimar Republic was most definetly a pluralistic democracy, or tried to be, given it was under the shadow of the ToV and hyper-inflation, and armed ulta right death squads pre-dating the NSP by several years and armed ultra left death squads too. Some of the reforms of capital by Erzberger were quite a bit ahead of their time and Germany was on the road to becoming a more open and less militaristic society- which is partly what propelled the anit-modernity NSP and their allies. So agian, both are right, both are wrong and besides this is major thread drift I am contributing too. (But I don't often get to bring up all this stuff I spent a year of my life immersed in
). Sorry I'll shut up now.
It's very difficult to talk about ethics when people at the top behave in flagrantly unethical ways and get away with it, while people at the bottom are punished for them. For example, in Winnipeg, Sam Katz received a report just prior to the election that Winnipeg didn't have enough 911 operators, so he turned that into a campaign promise. How unethical is that? Most of us are expected to fix things that are not up to standard under penalties that can include termination. Or look at the Bryant case in Toronto, RCMP Corporal Monte Robinsion, RCMP Officer Geoff Mantler in Kelowna and several other cases of police misconduct, public calls for assassination of Julian Assange, and other fraudulent behaviour, including at the high level banks in the US.
That's why I generally roll my eyes when politicians talk about "cracking down on crime." They need to set a better example.
True. Bottom line is that the Opposition parties have to be willing to have the courage to pull the plug on Harper and go to an election regardless of wether the polls are good. If they don't challenge Harper over this, he will cotinue to do whatever he wants for another year and there will be no point in the Opposition parties complaining about it.
If Harper needs other parties to agree to his concessions, he, by definition, does not have the power to dictate whether or not we go to the polls.
I can see it all now:
JKR Bulletin, JKR bulletin, Now here this
Michael Ignatieff will decide the date of our next election.
PS How's Bev doing these days? I'm just shocked, I tell you shocked, to hear she is still in Cabinet.
Once again you're wrong about who can and who can't dictate the date of our next election. Ignatieff is in no position to unilaterally decide the date of our next election. However, Ignatieff, Layton, and Duceppe could come together and decide the date of our next election. As far as we know maybe they already have.
I'm just shocked, I tell you shocked, that the National Post has editorials saying Oda should be removed from cabinet while a self-professed NDP supporter is happy she's still in cabinet. I'm just gobsmacked, I tell you gobsmacked, that someone's trying to start up an "NDP'ers for Harper" caucus within the NDP.
Who knew!
Ball in Harper's court: Duncan
http://www.inews880.com/Channels/Reg/LocalNews/story.aspx?ID=1367017
Newflash!
If Harper capitulates to the NDP's demands, the NDP will vote for the budget.
I wouldn't use the word capitulate in relation to Harper, it might scare him off.
Using the word capitualate around Harper could make his head explode.
Using it around Ignatieff might initiate a shrug.
Don't give in to these right-wing fanatics, eh Steevie. Hang in there with Bev.
Gotcha photos sign of Oda's future
http://www.torontosun.com/comment/editorial/2011/02/18/17329316.html
Oda should be fired- Vancouver Sun / Ottawa Citizen
KAIROS Furor: Did PM bigfoot Oda? - Toronto Star
Lakoff describes conservative morality to a t.
What Conservatives Really Want - George Lakoff - Huffington Post
This explains how we've reached the point where the act of lying itself is now being explained away on Parliament Hill.
This article should be required reading for anyone interested in understandings the undepinning of Canada's Conservative Party.
Lying has been owned by the Liberals since the beginning of time. All I'm seeing here is that the Conservatives are better liars and the Liberals are jealous.
Funding document only altered to signal direct decision from minister, Tories sayhttp://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Aide+stamped+signature/4316862/story...
You seem very happy at the prospect that the Conservatives will get away with lying to Parliament. Maybe the only thing that would be better is is if the Cons win 225 seats to the Liberals 4 seats?
Now that's a Conservative talking point. Literally.
senior government officials sent a background document Saturday to members of the Conservative caucus to outline how the controversial memo — which political critics say was “doctored” — was actually prepared.
Here we go again with the same ole, same ole. Sounds a lot like more Liberal crybaby BS to me.
Time to get over it - the party's over for the Liberals. It's just that some people haved clued into a bit earlier than others.
Unfortunately some folks can't tell the difference between laughing
at someone and smiling
at someone.
Background memo sent by *senior government officials to members of the Conservative caucus
http://www.nationalnewswatch.com/insider35.htm
I keep trying to tell ya but if it makes you happy to bury your head in the sand go for it. Just don't be surprised when the election results come in. Pleaase don't say what happened?
Lost generation haunts Liberals
Liberal MPs run their ridings like McDonald's franchises: each with the same brand but independently owned and not open to new blood. This has killed the primary life source for any political organization - fresh ideas from new faces, the grassroots.
Many ridings are no longer true Liberal ridings, they simply "belong" to the MPs who have represented them for years. This has been good for Liberal leaders because the seats were won regardless of the leader. But when those MPs leave, the ridings are up for grabs, as recently was the case in Vaughan.
Replacing Ignatieff is an option, but as a Liberal strategist told me last week, "Who can replace him?"
Those available are, politically speaking, too old and not needed, while those who are needed are too young, and thus not ready. In between, there's the lost generation.
The challenge for the Liberal party is to find a solution before the fake face of the young Dorian Gray morphs into the decaying picture hidden in the attic of Stornoway.
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/941755--persichi...
And just what does this story have to do with Bev Oda or KAIROS?
Obviously, this BS.
It is this kind of mentality that is going to put the Conservatives into a majority position. Can't we be a little smarter than this absurdness.
Not the deed that sinks you - Toronto Sun
Boo! Hoo!
I think before this is all over some people are going to be apologizing to Ms Oda and Mr Harper over this for their comments.
PS Don't be shy about tellin' us that this is Liberal war room guy Warren Kensella who is making the comment.
The House of Commons is a sham - McLeans