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The Fracking BC Liberals are Sucking Us Dry

contrarianna
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Joined: Aug 15 2006


Quote:
Our Water Secretly Sucked Away by Shale Gas Industry

Beyond public scrutiny, vast amounts of BC's water are being dealt to 'fracking' operations.


By Ben Parfitt, Today, TheTyee.ca

On Feb. 15 of this year, Calgary-based Canbriam Energy Inc. quietly applied to the B.C. government for the rights to pull billions of litres of water out of Williston Reservoir, the ultimate source of much of our province's hydroelectricity.
....
Once again, this permanent removal of water from public waterways is occurring in the complete absence of public input. Given the severe drought in one of the two major shale gas zones in northeast B.C. last year, it's time for the secrecy to end. First Nations communities and non-First Nations communities alike deserve to know important facts about who proposes to use B.C.'s water, where the water will come from, and how it will be used. We deserve this and more, well before decisions are made that will have potentially irreversible consequences for our land and water resources in future years.


Read the whole ugly story at the Tyee

http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2011/03/15/OurWaterSuckedAway/


The perpertrators of this outrage, in a just world, would be behind bars.
But,to say that the BC Liberals have betrayed the people of BC and their land would be to suggest that at one time they were on our side--which has never been true.


Comments

Roscoe
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Joined: Nov 7 2010

From the Tyee article:

Quote:
The application was the second submitted in less than a year. In 2010, Talisman Energy, another Calgary-based company, got the ball rolling with a similar proposal. If Talisman and Canbriam get their way, they could soon withdraw a combined 7.3 billion litres of water annually out of the reservoir -- an amount equivalent to draining 2,920 Olympic swimming pools each and every year.
2920 olympic swimming pools? 7.3 billion litres annually? Exactly how much water is that, for hyperbole challenged wonks like Roscoe who prefer more explicit terms like m/3 per second to "olympic swimming pools annually". Lemmee see here: The Environmental Protection Division of the BC Ministry of Environment gives a handy report called: Ambient Water Quality Objectives for the Peace River Mainstem. Since the Williston Reservoir in question outflows into said river, the report should be relevant. http://www.elp.gov.bc.ca/wat/wq/objectives/peacemain/peace.html From the report:
Quote:
HYDROLOGY Streamflow regulation of the Peace River began in 1967 with the completion of the WAC Bennett Dam. Since 1970, water has been released from the Williston Reservoir, formed by the dam, at a relatively uniform rate throughout the year in keeping with the demands of the electrical power production. Located 23 km downstream from the WAC Bennett Dam is the Peace Canyon Dam which was completed in 1980. This is a run-of-the-river hydroelectric facility with small storage. It thus has little effect on the streamflow regulation by the WAC Bennett Dam.

The major tributaries of the Peace River downstream from the Peace Canyon Dam contribute approximately 24 percent of the mean annual flow of the Peace River near the BC-Alberta border. The largest tributaries (in descending order of importance) are the Pine River from the south, the Halfway River from the north, the Beatton River from the north, the Moberly River from the south and the Kiskatinaw River from the south (see Figure 1). These tributaries can be expected to have a greater effect on the Peace River water quality during the spring when their flows are high and Peace River flows are low relative to pre-regulated conditions.

The altered flow regime of the Peace River is characterized by mean winter flows approximately 2-5 times greater than those before regulation and by elimination of the former spring-melt discharge peaks. Lowest minimum flows occur presently during the late summer. The minimum flow to be released from the WAC Bennett Dam, as required by BC Hydro's water licence is 283 m3/s (at Hudson's Hope about 35 km downstream from the dam). Only since since construction of the dam (June 1980) have flows at Hudson's Hope been lower than this value.

 

 

Water license minimum outflow for the mainstem of the Peace River is 283m3/sec. 283m3 = 283 x 1000 = 283,000 litres per second. 7.3 billion litres/ 283,000 l/sec = 25,795 seconds/60 = 429.91755 minutes/60 = 7.1652925 hours.

 

So, this 7.3 billion litres equals ~7 hours of MINIMUM discharge from the Williston reservoir.

 

Hmmm.... 365 days x 24 hours per day = 8760 hours per year into 7 hours = .0799086 % of the MINIMUM allowable annual discharge from the Williston Reservoir.

 

Rather miniscule, what? 2920 Olympic swimming pools sounds so much grander.

 

 


politicalnick
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Joined: Mar 6 2011

Roscoe, When you put it in those terms it does not really seem that bad, but will these corporations from outside BC pay for our water or is the government giving away more of our resources for free?


Roscoe
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Joined: Nov 7 2010

I'm not making any judgement whether it is good or bad, merely pointing out that the use of misleading optics does not lend legitimacy to criticism of the issue.

Its all relative. The total water useage drawdown may be different than the permitted drawdown, the ability of the drainage area of the reservoir to rebuild capacity, the snowpack level year to year and the impact of climate change on sustainability all come into the equation.

Don't kid yourself that anything in BC is 'free'. When one extracts sand and gravel from one's own land, the province charges a royalty. In this case, however, the netback to government from industry in the form of taxation, royalties, drilling rights sales and economic growth measures in the billions.

This is the economic engine that pays for government services like health and education. Considering the exponential growth in funding future services, BC should be thankful for the bounty in natural resources we have and our proximity to markets.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

The actual market value charged for the water, is a trifle, when you are looking at whether shale gas development is a good idea.

Saying that the companies get the water virtually for free is just a poor attempt at easy sensationalism.

The real water cost is to take in all the costs of what they do to the water, which comes back into various biological systems.

And those costs, the industry is most definitely not paying for. Nor are any governments accounting for these costs- even the likely monetary ones... let alone the of course unevenly distirbuted other costs.


Centrist
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Joined: Apr 7 2004

Any politico that attempts to interfere with the northeast BC natural gas sector will be committing political suicide based up the potential $trillions$ in value and the future revenue stream to government coffers IMHO:

 

Quote:
Shale Gas Could Herald Era of Unparalled Wealth in B.C.

 

By Gordon Hamilton, Postmedia News

March 14, 2011

 

VANCOUVER - Locked within the shale deposits of northeastern British Columbia lies a natural gas reserve of unparalleled wealth that could push the province into a resource boom unrivalled since the development 50 years ago of the pulp- and-paper industry.

This resource is nothing more than individual, tiny bubbles of hydrocarbon, all that remains of a single organism that lived and died in a primordial sea and was buried in the mud millions of years ago.

But the accumulation of billions of such organisms over time adds up to gas deposits of 250 trillion cubic feet to 1,000 trillion cubic feet, according to the provincial energy ministry.

How much of that is recoverable is a work in progress as companies drill into it. But even at today's low price for natural gas of about $3 per 1,000 cubic feet at the wellhead, those reservoirs could have a value beginning at $750 billion.

And the more companies drill, the more gas they find.

"We haven't finalized booking the reserves in the shale-gas plays," said Ken Paulson, chief engineer and deputy commissioner at the B.C. Oil and Gas Commission. "We are still getting information from some of the plays which allows us to refine our estimates as to how much hydrocarbon is actually in these reservoirs. But it's a lot."

Energy Minister Steve Thomson said shale gas is becoming mainstream development for the petroleum industry in B.C. "The magnitude and nature of B.C.'s shale-gas resources creates opportunities for long-term development planning by both industry and government," he said in an email to The Sun.

Northeastern B.C. contains four major gas formations: The Montney basin near Dawson Creek, the Horn River and Liard basins northwest of Fort Nelson, and the Cordova Embayment, east of Fort Nelson.  

The shale gas deposits have triggered a slew of deals worth billions of dollars as global companies jockey to gain a foothold in this new resource gold rush. Petro China's $5.4-billion investment with Encana, for a 50-per-cent stake in one B.C. gas deposit alone, is the largest, while South African synthetic fuel producer Sasol's $2-billion investment in two of Talisman Energy's gas holdings perhaps brings the most promise.

Sasol is a world-leader in technology of converting natural gas to synthetic diesel, and it has agreed with Talisman to conduct a feasibility study around the economic viability of a facility in Western Canada to convert natural gas to liquid fuels.

"It's exciting, innovative stuff," said Travis Davies of the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers.


http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/Shale+could+herald+unparalled+wealth/4435487/story.html#ixzz1GmvHdyNc


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Wonderful opportunity for hedge funds to make money for 30 or 40 years and then the Province will be left with the mess.  The oil and gas industry will destroy the ecology of this province if unchecked.  The industry is certainly ramping up the lying propaganda.  Gee who would have thought they had solved the tar sands problems already and arrived at a bright new green future.  I certainly would not have but I saw an ad that conveyed just that message.  Centrist I believe you are correct that neither political party in this province will actually reign in the oil and gas industry because it is the crack cocaine of revenue streams.  It makes me extremely worried for the future we will leave behind.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

There are plenty of boosters around.

But while they do mention the events in question, they fail to mention what brings forth the buying in of PetroChina and SASOL: Encana and Talisman, plus CoonocoPhillips not mentioned, are backing away from being so gung ho about shale gas. They'll still be after it, no question.... but the 'trillions to be made' is spin meant to blow people over.

What they are after, is for people to not get in the way, AT ALL.

So marshalling up the straw men is in order.


Roscoe
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Joined: Nov 7 2010

KenS wrote:

There are plenty of boosters around.

But while they do mention the events in question, they fail to mention what brings forth the buying in of PetroChina and SASOL: Encana and Talisman, plus CoonocoPhillips not mentioned, are backing away from being so gung ho about shale gas. They'll still be after it, no question.... but the 'trillions to be made' is spin meant to blow people over.

What they are after, is for people to not get in the way, AT ALL.

So marshalling up the straw men is in order.

What 'strawmen' would that be? Nice of Nova Scotians like KenS to hold the execution before the jury has delivered a verdict.

Empty-headed fearmongering based on ideological bias does nothing to move the issue forward.

BC has some rather expensive future expenditures. Advanced education to meet the challenges brought on by an ageing boomer demographic; seismic upgrading of infrastructure, especially schools;the increasing costs of eldercare and all the other demands on government services.

The future of BC shale gas development is not predicated by "$3 dollar gas". The dry gas, or sale gas is only one valuable component of this gas which is very rich in gas liquids. gas liquids that are used to make plastics, explosives, fertiliser and thousands of other products in everyday use.


Centrist
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Joined: Apr 7 2004

Of course environmental controls must be in place. That said, if natural gas reserves are in the 1,000 trillion cubic feet range in the region and the price eventually increases to, let's say, $10/1,000 cu ft. one is looking at $10 trillion in value leaving BC with the largest natural gas deposit, by far, in Canada.

Compare that to the Utica shale gas play in Quebec where there is only a relatively puny 40 billion cubic feet of natural gas, which still would supply all of Quebec's energy needs for 200 years. Quebec has no history in petroleum/gas production and does not have any regulatory/statutory regimes in place. Furthermore, the Utica is situate in a relatively highly populated area.

Petro China's $5.4 billion, 50% equity investment was in Encana's Cutbank Ridge play in the Montney basin. SASOL's $2 billion, 50% equity investment was in Talisman's Farrell Creek play also in the Montney basin. Remember that the Montney basin is comparatively small as opposed to the much larger Horn River basin.

The major players are actually going gung ho in north east BC. A major LNG port in Kitimat is on the drawing board - The Mitsubishi's, Korea Gas, Petro China's et al have all signed long term contracts at much higher and stable prices than garnered in the NA market. Major pipelines have also been approved for Trans-Canada pipelines as well as new large gas processing facilities.

The major players include Apache, Canadian Natural Resources Ltd., Conoco Phillips, Delphi Energy, Devon Energy, Encana, EOG Resources, ExxonMobil, Kodiak Petroleum, Nexen, Pengrowth, Petro-Can/Suncor, PetroBakken Energy, Quicksilver Resources, Talisman Energy, etc.

Have to give credit to former premier Dan Miller, during the 1990's, when the NDP government brought in the new royalty regime and the tax credit regime for natural gas prodiuction. That stoked the industry. Still, the shale/tight gas deposits will bring BC into a whole new world of energy production eventually rivalling Alberta and of course, what comes with it is the extra revenue stream.  

 

     

 

 


mybabble
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Joined: Jun 22 2008
KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

Calculations of reserves are more than 'not an exact science'- they are fundamentally predicated on economic feasability.

There is a huge sea of oil under the deep waters of the Gulf of Mexico. This was to be the silver bullet for the US being less dependent on imports. Then there wa Katrina and more hurricanes. this was a 'problem'. Then we have the blowout disaster. All of a sudden those reserves on paper are just that.

The improvements in shale gas drilling and extraction turned notional reserves of gas into 'real reserves'. But that is all predicated on shale gas extraction being cheaper than the untapped production that was available before the change in drilling technology opened up all those notional gas reserves.

But those becoming 'real reserves' is predicated on this comparatively low cost exploration and production technology as the industry is using it now.

But like so much industrial activity, the oil and gas industry is not paying the costs of what shale gas production does. In fact, the jury is still out on what the costs are. The industry is going ahead as if there are no such costs. There cant be costs when the critics are just fanasizing the 'problems'.

A.] This is all too new for us to know what the effects are. The industry is treating it as a foregone conclusion that there are no effects, and hence no costs other than their production costs which they have to incude. B.] The latter remains to be seen. even in Pennsylvania where the industry got carte blanche, there is a stepping back to say wait a minute.

Remember the lesson of the Gulf of Mexico. The jury is out on how much economically viable gas is out there. The industry always proceeds as if the potential obstacles identified are non existant or of no serious matter. The rest of us are fools for following them in their boosterism.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

And please spare me the condescending lectures about BC governments real needs for increased revenue.

In the Maritimes, we have that over you in spades. So there is every bit as much thirst for cashing in on whatever bonanza can be latched onto. In Nova Scotia, we have already decliming gas royalties that are a significant part of the decling fiscal margin government has. So there is the same eye on that promised shale gas bonanza.


Roscoe
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Centrist wrote:

Have to give credit to former premier Dan Miller, during the 1990's, when the NDP government brought in the new royalty regime and the tax credit regime for natural gas prodiuction. That stoked the industry. Still, the shale/tight gas deposits will bring BC into a whole new world of energy production eventually rivalling Alberta and of course, what comes with it is the extra revenue stream.  

 

Yes, in their haste to paint the "fracking BC Liberals" as the perpetrators of the "bleeding us dry" smear, the ideologically biased tend to forget it was the former BC NDP government that got the natural gas ball rolling.

No government can ignore the potential revenue stream that this industry will provide. A future NDP government will be between a rock and a hard place attempting to reconcile program spending with budgetary realities even with gas revenue. The Tyee had an article that stated 34,000 jobs will be created in NE BC in the next 25 years.


Roscoe
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KenS wrote:

There are plenty of boosters around.

But while they do mention the events in question, they fail to mention what brings forth the buying in of PetroChina and SASOL: Encana and Talisman, plus CoonocoPhillips not mentioned, are backing away from being so gung ho about shale gas.

Wrong again. Far from " backing away from being so gung ho about shale gas", these companies are marshalling JVs to enable faster drilling schedules. These deals consist of a smaller equity investment portion and a much larger undertaking to fund exploration and development expenses.

 "they fail to mention what brings forth the buying"? Try informing yourself rather than spouting gibberish. Every news article on the deals mentions the fact that technology transfer is a large part of the equation. China, in particular has great shale gas potential but does not have the knowledge or experience to take advantage of its potential.

Sasol is a global leader in gas to liquids conversion of NG into synthetic gasoline and diesel. The deal with Talisman is a strategic partnership to unlock value in NG beyond its sale gas and liquids components.

As crude oil supplies become heavier and more sulphur-laden, the percentage of lighter distilates declines. Its not rocket science to determine that the cost of transportation fuels will rise as their availablity decreases. Synthetic fuel are value-added commodities.

 


KenS
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Of course there is lots in it for the foreign companies buying in.

And you neglect to mention the argument in your favour that the big players are always changing the sector composition of their properties. So you can legitimately view this as a correction from the overheated crazy rush to snap up leases 3 to 5 years ago.

The other correction going on is that the companies are finding that even if the overall profitability has not changed, it is taking deeper pockest before the revenue streams from shale gas production roll in. Essentially a long term cash flow issue. That is true even for the US companies that have been in this in a big way for the longest. [For example Cheseapeake re-investing asset sale proceeds in oil.]

How much drilling is going on in BC, and whether it is still increasing, is beyond what I follow. But hpw much there is does not say one way or the other about shifts in the industry.

And the oil and gas industry has a sorry history of both micro/local and macro level boosterism- especially around what is cutting edge at the time.

I'm not saying the gas boom in BC is some kind of paper tiger. I'm just pointing out that buying into the promotional hype about the level and value of what this is about  has no more basis than the exagerations of the opening post.

You can make the case that is itself an overstated point. But since we dont yet know what the effects of shale gas drilling are, nor how much regulation may be pushed onto the industry against its obvious expectations.... it remains to be seen what this developing industry is worth, even in strict monetary terms.


KenS
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Roscoe wrote:

 Nice of Nova Scotians like KenS to hold the execution before the jury has delivered a verdict.

Empty-headed fearmongering based on ideological bias does nothing to move the issue forward.

Pot, meet kettle. You like the industry have decided befor the trial that you are innocent of any effects. Nothing here but "empty headed fear mongering."


Roscoe
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KenS wrote:

And please spare me the condescending lectures about BC governments real needs for increased revenue.

In the Maritimes, we have that over you in spades. So there is every bit as much thirst for cashing in on whatever bonanza can be latched onto. In Nova Scotia, we have already decliming gas royalties that are a significant part of the decling fiscal margin government has. So there is the same eye on that promised shale gas bonanza.

Ok, if you will spare me the cranky attitude.

NE BC, east of the Rockies (the oil patch) is over twice a big as Nova Scotia and contains ~ 70,000 residents. 63,000 of those residents live in the southern 25% -the 'Peace River country'.

To the rest of BC, the 75% that is west of the rockies, its 'out of sight, out of mind'.

How does this compare with Nova Scotia's population and proximity to shale gas exposure? How do you think it would compare if Nova Scotia had only 35,000 residents and every one who wanted to work could make $100k in 6 months?

 


Roscoe
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KenS wrote:

Roscoe wrote:

 Nice of Nova Scotians like KenS to hold the execution before the jury has delivered a verdict.

Empty-headed fearmongering based on ideological bias does nothing to move the issue forward.

Pot, meet kettle. You like the industry have decided befor the trial that you are innocent of any effects. Nothing here but "empty headed fear mongering."

I've been in this industry for many years - innocent has nothing to do with it - negotiating from strength is required to succeed. I'm successful because I trust no-one. If its not in a legally-binding written form, it doesn't exist to me. Regardless, thanks for another dreary accusation of complicity with industry.


Centrist
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I see that NS Premier Dexter was in Houston recently trying to drum up support for bids on NS offshore natural gas drilling, which cost is prohibitive considering the current glut and price on the NA market. FWIW, NS is still a relatively very small player compared to BC, AB, and SK.

Conventional on-land drilling is also somewhat uneconomic at the current NA price and many producing wells in AB are capped due to that factor.

Encana, in the Horn River basin, has achieved its lowest cost drilling/well in the tight shale plays and they are apparently economic even at current market prices. 

Wells in the Horn River basin are currently also capped as much infrastructure needs to be built/is under construction including Spectra/Encana ng processing plants and the Trans-Canada pipeline tie-in to the AB network.

But the future key is the Asian market, not the NA market. Mitsubishi, Korea Gas, Petro China, Spain Gas Natural et al have all signed MOU's for high volume, long-term supplies at considerably higher prices than the current NA price. That's the reason why a major player looks at the NE BC shale basins as rich "oil plays" as opposed to simply ng plays.

BC currently produces roughly 17% of Canada's natural gas production, which will potentially increase to ~50% over the next decade once the Montney/Horn River basins go into full production. And likely much of that ng will flow to Asia via one, two, or perhaps even three lng ports on the west coast.

I follow the industry relatively closely and NE BC shale/tight gas plays are the real McCoy IMHO. 


Roscoe
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KenS wrote:

Of course there is lots in it for the foreign companies buying in.

And you neglect to mention the argument in your favour that the big players are always changing the sector composition of their properties. So you can legitimately view this as a correction from the overheated crazy rush to snap up leases 3 to 5 years ago.

Wrong again. The "overheated crazy rush" was all about conventional gas pools and the haste to stick a bigger straw in the pool than the other guy. Unconventional shale plays are garnering much larger drilling rights bonus bids. The last 3 years saw 2008- $2.7 billion; 2009-$893 million; 2010- $844 million compared to ~$500 million per year in the previous 3 years.

I'd paste a graph but I don't know how to copy a pdf

Shale plays have very long recovery periods with variable depletion rates. Most of the shale gas info is from the US where they have as much as 90% depletion rates while BC rates are much less. This allows for more stability compared to the very apt  "overheated crazy rush" ( which refers to to  beating the competitor to the product and training up more compressors to suck the pool dry, not the rush for drilling rights, per se.

The other correction going on is that the companies are finding that even if the overall profitability has not changed, it is taking deeper pockest before the revenue streams from shale gas production roll in. Essentially a long term cash flow issue. That is true even for the US companies that have been in this in a big way for the longest. [For example Cheseapeake re-investing asset sale proceeds in oil.]

Correct. Now that oil is back up to $100 per barrel, cash flow restrictions have eased but these oil and gas guys are no dummies and realise that high oil prices will hinder global growth, causing prices to fall. Therefore, the strategy is to create strategic partnerships that will both speed development and add value to the commodity. Unlocking the captive market price in North America by exporting to Asia is one method, making value-added products is another.

How much drilling is going on in BC, and whether it is still increasing, is beyond what I follow. But hpw much there is does not say one way or the other about shifts in the industry.

Its hard to follow because majors will have a junior explorer fronting for them  or farm out exploration on marginal locations with a right of first refusal to cover their tracks. Also, drill stats are misleading because the trend is to drill multiple holes from one location.

And the oil and gas industry has a sorry history of both micro/local and macro level boosterism- especially around what is cutting edge at the time.

This industry has been here for 40 years or more - its not new. No-one here has any excess optimism. It makes and breaks companies, individuals and families. Previously, the oilcos would pull out overnight and leave the mess of bankrupt companies, reposessed homes and broken humans behind.

I'm not saying the gas boom in BC is some kind of paper tiger. I'm just pointing out that buying into the promotional hype about the level and value of what this is about  has no more basis than the exagerations of the opening post.

You can make the case that is itself an overstated point. But since we dont yet know what the effects of shale gas drilling are, nor how much regulation may be pushed onto the industry against its obvious expectations.... it remains to be seen what this developing industry is worth, even in strict monetary terms.

Maybe but when one can see the billions of dollars in infrastucture being built, one may surmise that oil companies do not make those decisions based on speculation. I believe the real decision will be the decision by Kitimat LNG Partners this fall on whether to proceed with the project . It is in FEED now. (front end engineering and design) Kitimat LNG and its Pacific Trails Pipeline will open the gates to Asia.


Centrist
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Joined: Apr 7 2004

Roscoe wrote:
I believe the real decision will be the decision by Kitimat LNG Partners this fall on whether to proceed with the project . It is in FEED now. (front end engineering and design) Kitimat LNG and its Pacific Trails Pipeline will open the gates to Asia.

That's the first one. I'm also hearing that Encana and Mitsubishi are looking at another lng port locale, among others. You do seem to know your stuff!


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

Roscoe wrote:

Nice of Nova Scotians like KenS to hold the execution before the jury has delivered a verdict.

Empty-headed fearmongering based on ideological bias does nothing to move the issue forward.

KenS wrote:

Pot, meet kettle. You like the industry have decided before the trial that you are innocent of any effects. Nothing here but "empty headed fear mongering."

Roscoe wrote:

I've been in this industry for many years - innocent has nothing to do with it - negotiating from strength is required to succeed. I'm successful because I trust no-one. If its not in a legally-binding written form, it doesn't exist to me. Regardless, thanks for another dreary accusation of complicity with industry.

Did I call you an innocent IN the business? No. And its irrelevant to the point that YOU first raised, and I called you on.

 

Some items have gone by that we have some agreement on- at least as to what is possible. Here is another one.

You noted the ratio in NE BC of how much gas there is over the few number of people living in the area. As compared to Nova Scotia, or better, to Pennsylvania that has lots of production.

In other words, in NE BC, lots of jobs and money to be made versus effects and potential effects on residents.

You argue two different things things:

1.] You persistently advance that the alleged effects of shale gas drilling, is just ideologically driven hysteria. You also argue that we've been doing this for decades and these purported effects would have appeared by now. That severely glosses over how rapidly the application of the technology has changed in the last 10 or 15 years, and hence how your defense does not apply as a sweeping 'analysis' of the continent-wide picture of drilling that has changed so rapidly in the last several years. You have the grace to acknowledge, albeit somewhat grudgingly, that on a public policy level, the jury is still out on the environmental effects that will have.

2.] In NE BC, the scale of the economic benefits compared to the as yet in principle unknown 'bill' for environmental effects, means that even if the regulatory framework changes a lot in ways you do not expect and that substantially change the extraction cost picture.... you are still going to be doing and supporting this anyway. "You" personally, and you speaking for/as the residents of NE BC in general.

The second one is your bottom line that matters. And it more than colours your extreme minimization of whether there are even legitimate issues about the effects of the process of extracting the resource from shale beds.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

Peripheral issue really, but take a look at the history of proposals for building LNG plants on this continent. Right through to the stage of buying and expropriating land and even early site work- let alone the talk level we are talking about now- it is all driven not by how much ecomically feasible gas there IS. Rather it is driven by how much the industry THINKS there is.

They keep getting it wrong. But I know, this is different. Again.

I'm not saying it isnt going to happen. But these arent reliable indicators of the depth of the bonanza, they are indicators of the circulated hype that might become real. 


Roscoe
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KenS wrote:

Peripheral issue really, but take a look at the history of proposals for building LNG plants on this continent. Right through to the stage of buying and expropriating land and even early site work- let alone the talk level we are talking about now- it is all driven not by how much ecomically feasible gas there IS. Rather it is driven by how much the industry THINKS there is.

They keep getting it wrong. But I know, this is different. Again.

I'm not saying it isnt going to happen. But these arent reliable indicators of the depth of the bonanza, they are indicators of the circulated hype that might become real. 

You are the one getting it wrong. Again. and Again. Try informing yourself rather than offering ill-informed opinions.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

You are making an assertion that I am wrong, rather than backing it up.

The continent is litterrred with LNG projects that cleared all the regulatory hurdles, then did not go ahead. One of the two in Nova Scotia got as far as site work.

Would you like to refute the truth or relevance of that rather than make unsupported assertions?

And because you are apparently surrounded by and work in an industry whose claims of level of activity are coming to pass, do you think that is a general argument that this is an industry absolutely rife with boosterism on a larger as well as per-project basis? And that these assumptions about what there is to extract are based on other assumptions that the problems being ointed out either do not exist or will have simple engineered solutions? The Gulf of Mexico being the best known example of the latter.


Brian White
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Joined: Jan 26 2005

What happens when the rivers that have been pumped into the cracked shale come back to the surface? They come back as acid water containing chromium, arsenic, sulphide, lead and other goodies? Don't they?  Thats our groundwater and rivers you are messing with. Pretty important resource actually.

Isn't that what they have found in the USA?

("I've been in this industry for many years - innocent has nothing to do with it - negotiating from strength is required to succeed." Roscoe)

I see your negotiating from strength all through the thread. I don't find it innocent either, what is the opposite?  and negotiating from strength sounds more like bullying to me.

 


contrarianna
Offline
Joined: Aug 15 2006

Roscoe wrote:

Yes, in their haste to paint the "fracking BC Liberals" as the perpetrators of the "bleeding us dry" smear, the ideologically biased tend to forget it was the former BC NDP government that got the natural gas ball rolling.

....

First, you are sadly deluded in your presumption that some partisan NDPer posted the somewhat gassy first post--as the many partisan NDPers here will readily tell you.

Second, you are deluded it is an "ideological" position that leads one to conclude that the BC Liberal party is irredeemably corrupt and destructive to the public and environmental good of BC --it is a matter of observation and history (Hint# 1, of many, :BC Rail and coverup).

As to the story itself, and your pooh-poohing the relatively small amount of water currently taken from the Williston reservoir--these withdrawals are a drop in the bucket when expected expansion goes ahead. And If one includes the potential contamination of ground water, the numbers for water use/abuse would skyrocket.
 
Even at these early stages of fracking development in BC, your alleged "sucking us dry smear" is currently not hyperbole for farmers who could attest to that reality (if the BC Libs allowed public input into their corporate giveaways). See  Ben Parfait's reply in the comments section of his article:

Quote:
...And not just with respect to proposed water withdrawals from Williston Reservoir but from numerous rivers in the region - rivers that fell to 50-year lows and which were subject to water withdrawals 24 hours a day 7 days a week by convoys of water trucks operating in the Hudson's Hope area and elsewhere in the South Peace region last year. Water takings on rivers like the Halfway were eventually halted, only to be lifted weeks later after moderate rains that local farmers said brought little if no relief to local lands and waters. When the water takings resumed in some cases, they resumed at increased daily withdrawal rates as approved by provincial regulators - again in the absence of any opportunity for public review and comment.

But for a more comprehensive documented paper on the diverse issues by Parfitt,
see his paper delivered to Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto:
Fracture Lines: In the Rush to Develop Shale Gas Will Canada's Water Be Protected?
http://www.powi.ca/pdfs/groundwater/Fracture%20Lines_English_Oct14Releas...


mybabble
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Joined: Jun 22 2008
Roscoe
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Joined: Nov 7 2010

contrarianna wrote:

Roscoe wrote:

Yes, in their haste to paint the "fracking BC Liberals" as the perpetrators of the "bleeding us dry" smear, the ideologically biased tend to forget it was the former BC NDP government that got the natural gas ball rolling.

....

First, you are sadly deluded in your presumption that some partisan NDPer posted the somewhat gassy first post--as the many partisan NDPers here will readily tell you.

You are sadly deluded to presume that I presumed anything about the NDP in that somewhat gassy first post. My point is that no government can withstand the allure of shale gas revenue - see later post about the stalwarts of Quebec hopping on the gravy trail ....oh those fracking PQ Liberals,lol.


Second, you are deluded it is an "ideological" position that leads one to conclude that the BC Liberal party is irredeemably corrupt and destructive to the public and environmental good of BC --it is a matter of observation and history (Hint# 1, of many, :BC Rail and coverup).

I'm also sadly deluded that articles like this in the Tyee will ever sacrifice over-the-top emotional hyperole in favour of incisive fact-driven criticism that will reach out beyond their emotional hyperbole lovin groupies and actually engage the issue.

As to the story itself, and your pooh-poohing the relatively small amount of water currently taken from the Williston reservoir--these withdrawals are a drop in the bucket when expected expansion goes ahead. And If one includes the potential contamination of ground water, the numbers for water use/abuse would skyrocket.

Wrong I'm actually pooh-poohing the idiotic use of 'billions of litres' and '2920 olympic sized swimming pools' rather than the standard cubic meters or, if more than a 'relatively small amount of water', then the use of cubic hectares just like the real hydrologists. Relatively is the magic word .

Even at these early stages of fracking development in BC, your alleged "sucking us dry smear" is currently not hyperbole for farmers who could attest to that reality (if the BC Libs allowed public input into their corporate giveaways). See  Ben Parfait's reply in the comments section of his article:

Which farmers? do you have any farmers to attest to that reality or are you merely speaking hyperbolicly?

Quote:
...And not just with respect to proposed water withdrawals from Williston Reservoir but from numerous rivers in the region - rivers that fell to 50-year lows and which were subject to water withdrawals 24 hours a day 7 days a week by convoys of water trucks operating in the Hudson's Hope area and elsewhere in the South Peace region last year. Water takings on rivers like the Halfway were eventually halted, only to be lifted weeks later after moderate rains that local farmers said brought little if no relief to local lands and waters. When the water takings resumed in some cases, they resumed at increased daily withdrawal rates as approved by provincial regulators - again in the absence of any opportunity for public review and comment.

If the 'moderate rains' fall in the mountains to the west, river levels will very quickly elevate. Also, these 'moderate rains' will only bring relief to farmers if said rain actually falls on their land. Last summer, BC Hydro only allowed the minimum flow for the Peace but the Halfway , pine and to some extent the Moberly will quickly raise the Peace level from rainfall.

"the absence.....for public review" brings me back to the Tyee article which could be a powerful tactic to force disclosure rather than a vanity piece devoted to the faithful.

But for a more comprehensive documented paper on the diverse issues by Parfitt,
see his paper delivered to Munk School of Global Affairs at the University of Toronto:
Fracture Lines: In the Rush to Develop Shale Gas Will Canada's Water Be Protected?
http://www.powi.ca/pdfs/groundwater/Fracture%20Lines_English_Oct14Releas...


Roscoe
Offline
Joined: Nov 7 2010

KenS wrote:

You are making an assertion that I am wrong, rather than backing it up.

The continent is litterrred with LNG projects that cleared all the regulatory hurdles, then did not go ahead. One of the two in Nova Scotia got as far as site work.

Would you like to refute the truth or relevance of that rather than make unsupported assertions?

And because you are apparently surrounded by and work in an industry whose claims of level of activity are coming to pass, do you think that is a general argument that this is an industry absolutely rife with boosterism on a larger as well as per-project basis? And that these assumptions about what there is to extract are based on other assumptions that the problems being ointed out either do not exist or will have simple engineered solutions? The Gulf of Mexico being the best known example of the latter.

I do beg your pardon. No time this morning - a project meeting at a large gas plant my company is involved in.

Yeah, I see your point about LNG projects in general. The proposed Kitimat LNG project was also shelved for the same reasons. They were degasification plants to import LNG. The advent of shale gas made importation of LNG uneconomic. Try developing your shale gas and building a compression plant (@4X the cost of degassing) to export LNG to Europe and see how that flies.

Kitimat LNG has partners. The Haisla of Kitimat and Pacific Northern Gas. The Haisla have provided land for the plant and PNG owns the existing pipeline from Spectra's Summit lake compressor station to Kitimat. Provincial approval granted 2007 and federal approval in 2008. Pipeline capacity is fully booked with Kitimat LNG partners Apache Canada and EOG resources selling their own gas to KOGAS (Korean National Gas Co) and Spain's dominant gas company (whose name escapes me).

Encana is presently constructing phase 1 of 5 phases ($400 million each phase) of its Cabin Gas Plant. Ledcor Corp has the prime contract. TransCanadaPipelines is building its 36 inch Horn River connector and 36 inch Groundbirch connector pipelines to tie into its Alberta grid. transCanadaPipelines converted from an provincially regulated carrier to a federally (NEB) regulated carrier in order to access BC gas.

I can go on for pages but you get the drift (or maybe refuse to Laughing) The point is that these are hard assets with sunk costs, not paper proposals.

Natural gas is a completely different commodity than oil. Land-based gas drilling is completely different than offshore oil drilling.

 

 


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