Join rabble.ca's Vegan Challenge!

No, what you said is  "This is based on the assumption that a vegan diet is better for the environment- that is 100 per cent false."  Then you went on to explain how the production of fruits and vegetables can also be very destructive, as well as sugar and ethanol production etc...  What I am trying to say (and this is the last time I will bother) is that even if there wasn't ONE vegetarian on the planet, there would still be destructive crops of fruits and vegetables, as well as sugar production and ethanol.  they would just be there in addition to the destructive practises raising livestock in factory farms.  Vegetarians are not the cause of destructive planting practises,  as many of these posts would lead you to believe.

Having said that, I am out of this thread for now.  Carry on.

It doesn't and I never suggested that it does.     My point was to illustrate that a diet based on eating no animal products doesn't automatically mean more sustainable or more ecological then a diet which includes  some types of meat or animal products.    It isn't an either/or comparison.     My point is that in order to argue that a vegan diet is more sustainable then a diet with animal products in it depends on where, what, how and how much with both types of diets.

Isn't Lent some time around April?  If so, this is a traditional time for some cultures to give up meat, etc. anyway.  I know I make a lot of Lebanese/Arabic dishes that are "lenten" (lentils, cracked wheat and onions, f'rinstance) but which would be called "vegan" by others, I suppose.

Yuk yuk yuk

I have an idea for another challenge.  Howzabout those holier-than-thou carnivores give up plant-based food for a week, then report back to us?

Thanks W. Zombie ! I get so used to our issues and needs as Indigenous peoples being ignored by the Left, I guess that's why my two other posts here reflect a certain frustration with the Left making all these sweeping statements and initiatives and then later having to post something similar to: "I don't think this campaign is directed toward Indigenous peoples though."

Which is basically a matter of inclusion, because we weren't thought of. Ya, we Indigenous people get that a lot on the Left. It gets a little tiring to have to defend yourself and your beliefs from a Left that professes itself to be so open-minded and considerate.

Which is exactly the kind of issues that I feel vegans deliberately don't think of/the hard questions they don't want to challenge themselves with while they run around challenging other groups/cultures about their beliefs.

It's the same when I run into evangelistical vegans on the streets or at demos, when I point out that I come from an Indigenous culture with deep roots embedded in hunting/trapping/herding and work in solidarity with other Indigenous cultures (and the issue around the wearing of fur or the right to hunt/trap or land right issues), it's always the: oh shit, what am I supposed to say now face! response.

And maybe I'll get a few platitudes about respecting Indigenous rights, etc.

There was one vegan fellow from Montreal who suggested that my culture "evolve."

Thank you, though, for mentioning the salient point that Indigenous Peoples - who, I assert again are often on the FRONT LINES of environmental justice struggles - don't need a lecture on environmentalism or to be placed in some sort of cultural hierarchy.

From this thread, it's pretty clear that "the celebration of veganism as the cure for the environmental crisis" is a caricature of the discussion actually taking place. In post three I already mentioned how the staff is grappling with spectacular performances like this in an action meant to incite conscious reevaluation of our eating habits. What differentiates this action from reading a thread about Food day, is that it forces people to actually act differently. I certainly don't think that veganism will solve world hunger, or is an environmental panacea, and I highly doubt I will convert to veganism or vegetarianism post-challenge, but I still think the exercise has value.

The discussions taking place here--which include reference to northern communities, indigenous people, diets in the global south, cultural trends and trendiness, sustainable agricultural practice and anthropological arguments--are also taking place among the rabble staff (none of whom are vegan). Which is, of course, the purpose of an exercise like this: to provoke debate, action and thought. So far so good on that front.

On that note, it's rather amazing the traction this thread has gleaned these past two days. Start a thread on grammar or veganism and watch the hits roll in...

That's because everyone assumes he or she is an expert on those subjects and has an opinion on them. Just like when parents organizations discuss sex education in schools; everyone's an "expert". But ask for their input on the math curriculum, and all you'll get is blank stares.

Would the Rabble-supported exercise have value, I wonder, if it was aimed at challenging people to eliminate berries or root vegetables from their diets? It would certainly provoke a re-evaluation of our eating habits, but is that really the point? Or is the point to make people think we should be eating vegetables and fruits and not meat, eggs, and milk?

It's disingenuous to deny that there's a definite agenda at work here.    

And my remarks about the celebration of veganism as the answer to the earth's problems was not a reference to the discussion in this thread. It was a criticism of Rabble.ca's cheerleading for veganism - in the link you provided in the OP.
 

I'm all for resisting the system, heaven knows. But there are forms of resistance and there are forms of resistance. While to millions of others around the world resistance to the system that causes immense suffering to humans and other creatures means incurring great personal risk and sacrifice - perhaps injury, torture, imprisonment, or death - here in Canada it seems absurd to talk about resistance to that same system by way of making personal dietary choices. Does the system really care one way or the other whether you eat its meat or its fruits or its vegetables?

I too am concerned about the immense suffering of livestock that are regarded as so much raw material for the commodities produced by the mutinational agribusiness giants. But I am also mindful of the immense suffering of human agricultural labourers who toil at growing the fruits and veggies for the vegans of North America to munch on. I despair at the statistics on farmer suicides in India, and the hardships and starvation caused by the giant seed conglomerates with their GM foods and their intellectual property laws.

I just don't think encouraging people to opt out of one kind of consumption in favour of another is effective in either combatting the rotten system or enlightening people about its true nature so they are motivated and equipped to fight against it.    

Let me make it clear that I have no criticism of other people's dietary choices. I just don't like it when they represent their choices as being grand political statements or solutions to environmental problems.  

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Was it Steven Wright who said, "I'm a vegetarian - not because I love animals, but because I hate plants."

You're the only person to respond to what I've been saying. Thank-you.  

I'm not suggesting it as a good way to overthrow the system and in fact I share your disgust and impatience with the idea that consumer or lifestyle choices are the way to change the world. I've taken a fair bit of abuse on babble for that  

I think I explained myself badly. I just won't eat the body of a tortured creature; that's all. I won't be part of it - at least not that directly. (I know I'm part of it in all kinds of indirect ways. I do know that.) But it still makes a difference that it's direct involvement and direct benefit. (I love bacon, actually.) Sometimes a person takes a moral stand for reasons that are not utilitarian. 

Or, for another example, a dalmation?

I haven't thought enough about the moose question to answer but I do eat sardines (which means I'm not really a vegan) so I think that's a partial answer. If it was a matter of survival or health I'm pretty sure I'd eat the moose under the conditions you describe. And that of course is and has been reality for people in many parts of the world for much of history, my own ancestors included.