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Syndicate
I'm confused...it sounds like you're saying that a week is too long to expect anyone to handle going without animal products...but then you're slagging earth hour...so vegan week is too long but vegan hour is too short. So you're urging moderation. I guess if we could get everyone to go without bacon on their double cheeseburger that would be hte way to go?
Maybe "no fast food" for a week might be a better challenge, although I suspect for many babblers this is not such a challenge.
If people don't think they're capable of eliminating animal products for a week then they're unlikely to be convinced otherwise.
I'm sure you could set the bar a bit higher than that. How about cutting your meat intake by half?
I would think that if people actually sustained a change like that it would have a huge impact on the environment, etc.
Or, everyone can try their darndest to take a zero tolerance approach to their own diet, give that shit up once the week is over, and go back to business as usual.
I'll be honest: I think that "sustainability" and "the environment" are just convenient talking points for vegans... easier sells than animal rights and morality. So when I see "go vegan" as a proposed initiative to "get people thinking and talking" I immediately wonder why it needs to be vegan. Is it really about the environment, and not the cute and cuddly animals?
edited to add: Looks like the rabble Vegan Challenge links to the Toronto Vegetarian Association's "Veggie Challenge" which doesn't expect the perfect rigour of a vegan. They even say "Finally, don't get too hung up on details. The important thing is to do your best to eat a vegetarian or vegan diet, and have fun experimenting with all the delicious veggie options out there."
If you just want to do right by the planet, without having to convert to a new religion, take a look at http://www.veggiechallenge.com .. they seem a bit more realistic about it all.
I'll say it once more though I realize it's probably futile: Most vegans are vegans because "cruelty to animal" concerns. That's the core of it. All the rest is just supplementary arguments some people use. But of course people prefer to discuss the supplementary arguments. (Snert's "cute and cuddly" remark was insulting but he does see this.)
Another thing before I leave for work: it's exceedingly difficult to be a fully consistent vegan. I am not a fully consistent vegan because it would take too much time and money. (I live in rural Saskatchewan.) What I do is not eat animal products produced by processes that cause significant suffering to the animals. The farmers I know generally treat their animals well. If the same farmers did the slaughtering, I'd be happier. But in general they don't. (I realize some do.) And socially, I am vegetarian rather than vegan, because people don't know how to cook for vegans. I appreciate their willingness to accommodate my vegetarianism and I don't ask for more, though my closest friends do cook vegan for me, out of respect and friendship, but without my asking that they do so.
And yes, I realize vegans irritate a lot of people. But a lot of you here hold beliefs that profoundly irritate a lot of people. Surely you know that
Snert, no one wants you to push yourself beyond what you can handle. If the best you can do in a challenge like this is to cut your meat intake in half, don't worry, we'll still give you a pat on the back. We'd rather see you have a learning experience and feel good about what you were able to accomplish rather than have you feel guilty and cry about it.
I don't know RosaL I sell vegetables and fruit to, know and work with a number of vegans and have done so for many, many years. I hear those environmental concerns about as often as the animal suffering issue. I expect it entirely depends on the person. What motivates you might not be what motivates others. I'm still of the to each their own position, but I really resent the environmental agruments because they are so demonstrably false, yet they are insisted upon all the time.
Why bother? Taking part in a "Vegan" challenge while eating even the tiniest scrap of meat would be as futile as taking part in the "Abstinence" challenge starting with a handjob or the "Temperence" challenge, as discussed over a few Jager shots. Immediate disqualification.
That's kind of my point. I really get the sense that the organizers were thinking of their own vegan beliefs, more than the effectiveness of a challenge like this, when they chose to take the "Veggie" challenge and make it all-or-nothing.
I think you're reading some absolutism into this that doesn't exist. It's a challenge, not a catechism. People can try to see how they do. If they feel the need for a HotRod or a barrel of chicken in the middle of the week, and yield to "temptation," so what? At least they're giving it a shot.
There appears to be a misconception about how difficult it is to become a vegetarian. If you really want to do it, it's easy. I never felt an urge to eat meat after going herbie. Indeed, after a few months the idea of eating an animal's flesh became completely repulsive to me, and has stayed that way over 20 years later. I have about as much desire to eat the muscles of an animal as I have to eat its dung.
Are you vegetarian, or vegan?
Al Q, it's not that hard to be vegetarian, but it is quite difficult (and of questionable worth to one's health) to be a strict vegan. I've tried both.
The main issue with the vegan challenge is that it's based on false premises, one of which is that a vegan diet, any vegan diet, is better environmentally. That is a gross oversimplification. It's also an implied judgment on those of us who eat meat, eggs and dairy, even if we do it in an environmentally conscious way - we obviously don't care enough about the planet if we raise objections to the premise of their argument.
BTW, as a lacto-ovo vegetarian, you're included in the damned.
Damned, shmamned, I'm a G.B. Shaw vegetarian: "I prefer not to dine on corpses."
I know from experience that I can live on a vegetarian diet, supplemented with eggs and dairy. I'll probably do so if I move to Gatineau in 2015 for my official retirement.
Oh, but would you wear one?? Would you enslave a bee, Al-Q? Would you steal milk from a baby cow?
These are all sins, sinner.
In a lot of ways, going veggie can be worse for the enviroment, given that most of the neat variety has to be flown in, trucked in etc. Vegan never made sense to me but then I never wanted to give up things like Beer and Wine, both of which use pork products
Well and good - but you're still a bad, bad environmentalist for eating eggs and cheese.
Can I also point out that, contrary to the complaints about obnoxious omnivores in the veg thread, you're being a lot more confrontational about my food choices than I am about yours? You can knock it off any time now.
A few comments on this thread have mentioned cutting down meat intake, and when you do eat meat, eating only meat raised in environmentally friendly ways that are not cruel to animals. I have a problem determining which meat on my grocery shelf is grown that way. Does anyone know what 'traditionally raised' means? Does anyone regulate that sort of label? What about 'free range'? I've heard that label is misused. I would love to be vegetarian for moral, ethical and environmental reasons, but extensive food sensitivies prevent me from going fully vegetarian or vegan. Short of buying directly from the farmer, which is often difficult to do, how can I make better meat choices?
I agree. When I first stopped eating meat I decided to go without it for a day and see what happens, and then the next day, and see what happens. It was't in the least difficult. Being an ovo lacto vegitarian, especially for men, doesn't really require much in terms of changes. Any meat based meal can pretty much be prepared vegetarian without having to change spices or cooking processes.
Learning to cook vegan is definitely harder. For those who don't really enjoy cooking, going from meat eater to vegan could be pretty bland <i>until they get the hang of it</i>.
I'm in the other boat it seems. Once I stopped eating meat, like Al-Q, the idea of it became gross. I don't like the idea of eating animal corpes (no judgement there) either, especially if they've had a lifetime of mistreatment. It wasn't guilt, it was just...gross. Now recently, I read and was challenged by The Vegetarian Myth, and I am experimenting eating a bit of meat here and there to see what happens. Some of it I have enjoyed. Most of it has seemed heavy, chewy, and kind of gross.
I'm at the point where I no longer believe that vegetarianism is much of an anwer for both the wellbeing of animals nor for environmental sustainability. But, I'm just not sure how I'm going to get around the psychological aspect of not enjoying meat (I used to enjoy it).
As far as "absolutism" goes, in this thread I read more of it from the people criticizing this challenge than from those proclaiming their vegetarianism. Frankly I would imagine 20 years as an ovo-lacto vegetarian does a lot to remove moral absoutism. After six months vegetarians might be pretty lippy, but after many years (almost 13 for me, before I started experimenting this year), it just becomes a personal choice.
Entirely depends on where you are. In a large city like toronto, there are organic butchers or butchers who get direct from local farmers and not the usual big feed lots/industrial producers.
In a rural area you can find farmers associations and get local that way. For a non-rural mid sized place its a lot harder
Agreed. I don't see (really) any vegetarian absolutes. But it's also interesting to me that a number of vegetarians have spoken in support of this, even though (I'm assuming) even *they* are either unprepared to go "full vegan" or uninterested.
If *you* find vegan cooking a challenge, then can you maybe see why I'm questioning the need for this challenge to be a "vegan" challenge and not simply a "vegetarian" -- including lacto-ovo -- challenge? You've been a vegetarian for 13 years, but this challenge wants me to spend a week being even more rigorous about what I eat than you, and to to considerably greater lengths to do so.
If this were really about "helping the environment" or "raising awareness of what we eat" then I continue to maintain that a vegetarian challenge would do that.
Remember when our government started sponsoring television ads to urge us to get outside, go for a walk, ride a bike, play with our kids? That sort of thing? I wonder if those ads would been effective if they had instead urged us -- just for a week -- to get up each morning at 5 a.m. and go for a 20km run? What's your thinking? Would lots of people have met that challenge?
I'm in a city of just over 200,000 - there are ways of finding local, ethical sources. The farmer's market is a good place to start, and google is your friend. Once you get to know someone who sells eggs at the farmer's market, you can often arrange to get them year 'round. We've sourced lamb, beef, and chicken from small local producers and buy locally raised organic-in-all-but-name eggs from a local organic grocer. Milk and cheese are more of a challenge.
It doesn't mean they we haven't tried it for more than a week and found benefit in it. It's not about being absolute. And frankly, I think the actual eco-benefits of that as a dietary choice are debateable. But, I think it's a great challenge/exercise. Just as I would think taking a week (really a week is barely enough for any of these challenges) to go without sugar (including fruit), and/or wheat, and/or soy would be very beneficial execises.
I've gone dairy-free for more than a year at a time. I've gone vegan for months at a time. I think eggs are really good for me but after long fasts they seem gross for a while.
I don't find vegan cooking a challenge when I'm interested in eating vegan, because I have learned to cook that way and make very appetizing meals. It's challenging for brand new, cold turkey vegans and I don't find their creations very appetizing.
I would think that the Rabble vegan challenge could make it more likely for people to succeed by provising some sample recipes that people could try. Babblers speaking in favour of this challenge could make it easier by providing some as well. Of course, many babblers have been providing trolls with tasty vegan recipes over the years. I can find some time in the next couple weeks to conribute a couple recipes.
This is like earth hour, if earth hour were a week long, or maybe a day long. All of these things, as individual actions, will do fuck all for the environment. Where there is benefit is in opening people's eyes. Anyone can go an hour without power and not challenge themselves in the least. To go a day without power, that would probably feel like an accomplishment to most people. To go a week without power, that would really open up people's eyes to how upside down things have gotten. For one person to go without power means nothing in the grand scheme of things. The point of these challenges is the effect on the individual, because the effect on the global or national system is negligible.
In my eyes the point is not to meet or pass the challenge, it is the introspective journey involved. I don't think there's much personal benefit if there's not at least a bit of discomfort.
I dunno, wz, it seems to me that stuff like this is largely preaching to the choir. Do you really think it will make much difference? Would someone who doesn't already put some energy toward mindful eating be inclined to participate?
Hmm ... that made me think about what I eat in a way I hadn't before ... I'm a scavenger, a carrion-feeder. I eat animals that are 'pre-klilled'. Mind you, I'm paying someone to kill tasty animals that I can eat, but by definition I'm eating carrion.
Cool. And a little disturbing.
So, I guess we can say that most of the West, in the northern hemisphere at least, are carrion-feeders. Some are gatherers as well, some are scavengers as well, but most of the human species is either gatherer or hunter-gatherer (I'm using 'hunter' to stand for people who raise, slaughter and eat their own animal products, not just hunting and killing wild animals).
We're apex predators, by and large (which doesn't mean we don't get eaten - humans and other apex predators will snack on human flesh when necessary), but we have choice. We can do what is demonstrably wrong - consume without thought - or we can pay attention to how our choices impact the planet. Moral or pragmatic, it's something we have to do.
As I was driving home yesterday there was an interview on CBC radio (Manitoba) with a fellow who was going celibate for six months.
Never mind that he was talking about half a year rather than a week, I doubt that anyone in the world would accuse him of trying to drive humanity into extinction.
Likewise, I have never considered judaism a conspiracy against my enjoyment of bacon, scallops or beef stroganoff.
I am normally pretty vocal about those who consider moderate meat-eating evil, but this is kind of ridiculous. Vegetarianism is fine. Veganism is fine, and we are just talking about a week-long exercise here.
I don't understand why anyone would feel threatened by what is in essence a great idea.
I'm not threatened - I just dislike the tone and I think the premise is silly. I respond the same way to fundamentalists who make the assumption they are making morally superior choices to the rest of us.
I don't think I've ever been asked to take the kosher challenge...
If all those recipes could be extracted from the archives and edited into a cookbook, wouldn't that make a totally hilarious fundraiser?
"Fuck Off Troll: A Collection of Beloved Recipes from Canada's Left"
I'm not really joking, btw. I'd totally drop a few coins on a cookbook like that.
Actually so would I. Not to mention drop a few recipes off (like spicy baked potato skins or cucumber shooters). Im in a foodie frame of mind since I just got back from New Orleans
I'm sort of with you (if you trundle over to the most recent seal-killing thread you can see where I stand on that).
I see this strictly as a health and discipline issue. It there is a moral superior tone, implied or inferred, I am ignoring it. I have met some vegetarians who are judgmental and condescending about it, but The vast majority I know (including the one I sleep with every night) are not.
And besides, there are veggie mega-industries - corn, for one - which can certainly rival meat for envorinmental destruction. That is not the issue, IMO.
Regardless of the motive, I htink it is a good idea. Hey, I know enough alcoholics who give up drink for lent just to prove that they can.
How so? I thought I was being rather laissez-faire here. In an earlier post I said this isn't about being an absolutist and if you want to eat meat in the midst of taking the challenge, go ahead.
Fun! I'd totally contribute recipes to that.
I'm thinking of doing the vegan challenge as an excuse to inflict wheat gluten upon the family once again. So far, we're underwhelmed, but I've still got half a kilogram of wheat gluten powder (which expands massively - if we can like it, it's sure a cheap source of protein).
BTW, I'd welcome more recipes for wheat gluten/seitan, or links to same. I've tried some internet recipes, and again, not great.
Really? I didn't know about that. I make seitan the hard way, washing starch out of the dough. Gluten powder always seemed kinda strange and processed to me (yet I even eat TVP), so I never gave it a try.