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North American Apartheid

notaradical
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Joined: May 17 2011

I don't claim to know many particulars of North American Indigenous history, but after reading a few babble posts about Israeli apartheid, I began thinking:

Is the continent of North America an apartheid entity?

If the majority of land that we currently recognize as Canada and the USA were stolen, coopted, or purchased dishonestly, and the indigenous peoples forced to live inhuman existences on reserves or marginalized in our communities, does that constitute the definition of "apartheid"?

Do our continuous attempts at alleviating the suffering of indigenous peoples ignore the fact that this land is rightfully theirs and should be returned to them?

In living our daily lives on this continent, are we as complicit in this oppression as the Israelis or the white South Africans?

Are even the most egalitarian among us too ashamed to admit our collective guilt because it would mean a radical reconstituting of historically entrenched mental and physical institutions?

- - - - -

It's just interesting to ponder this. I don't claim any moral high ground. I don't mean to offend. But isn't this a question that all of us should be seriously asking ourselves?


Comments

N.Beltov
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Joined: May 25 2003

Babblers and progressive Canadians should support both the Palestinian struggle against Israeli apartheid and atrocities as well as the struggles of FNs, Metis and Inuit Peoples in Canada over the many significant issues they face: prompt settlement of land claims, resolution of centuries old outstanding issues, racism in Canada, etc, etc, etc.

I don't claim any moral high ground either. Just some common sense.


milo204
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Joined: Feb 3 2010

by all accounts, yeah, canada is really no better.  It's just that the process is a few hundred years along already, so it's much harder to reverse because we've already taken all the good land and control the whole place.  Doesn't mean it can't someday be done, though!


notaradical
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It is a very strange feeling trying to comprehend that as I type this, I may be sitting atop indigenous land that was gotten illegally. It is even stranger to realize that in a few days, I may have lapsed back into the hum-drum, barely giving this issue a second thought.

I wonder if this is how some citizens of apartheid states feel or have felt?


N.Beltov
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I hope I've convinced you that you should support both indigenous struggles in this country and Palestinian struggles in the Middle East. Let me know if you disagree and I will see if I can re-iterate the argument in a different way.


sknguy II
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Joined: Apr 20 2009

A part of decolonization is to challenge your own thoughts. Understanding the past gives the present a context. The experiences and conflicts that other peoples had experienced is different from the oppression, cultural genocide and violence that was and continues to be inflicted on Indigenous peoples in Canada. Out of respect for the struggles of other peoples, I don’t find it particularly helpful in dealing with the uniqueness of the many different struggles by generalizing and categorizing all into one. Calling our experience apartheid does no service to our experience and lumps us in with the category of other.

notaradical wrote:

Do our continuous attempts at alleviating the suffering of indigenous peoples ignore the fact that this land is rightfully theirs and should be returned to them?

What do the “continuous attempts to alleviate the suffering” mean to you? What problem exactly is Canada trying to solve? I think Canada should try to understand the cause of the problem before launching into more “solutions”. In the past, Indigenous people didn’t have a problem and had initially tried to share the land with the newcomers. The problems were fabrications. Indigenous peoples became a "hinderance" for the needs of the newcomers. The problems continue today not as a result of the needs of Indigenous peoples, but because of the needs of Canada.

I think you should try to think of the problem from a different perspective. To ask yourself what would it be like to have your identity stripped away? To be punished for speaking your language and having your culture and traditions outlawed. I think that you need to decolonize your thoughts and look at the “problem” and contemplate what your part is in it. Whose problem is Canada really trying to solve?


NDPP
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Canada has achieved what Israel can only dream of...


Fidel
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Apartheid in Canada? Babb to visit Peguis Indian Reserve CBC News video from 1987

Physical genocide of indigenous people by armed government troops is no longer politically acceptable. Today it's done by policies for maintaining high unemployment and poverty on segregated reserves across Canada, police brutality etc, and by policies for phasing out native status by some date in the future. Canadian governments have clearly been guilty of hypocrisy when mouthing support for human rights in other countries.


NDPP
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An Indictment of the Courts for Treason and Complicity in Genocide

http://bcgreen.com/~samuel/fraud+treason.html

 


Charter Rights
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sknguy II wrote:

I think you should try to think of the problem from a different perspective. To ask yourself what would it be like to have your identity stripped away? To be punished for speaking your language and having your culture and traditions outlawed. I think that you need to decolonize your thoughts and look at the “problem” and contemplate what your part is in it. Whose problem is Canada really trying to solve?

 

I don't believe this would be a helpful exercise for any non-natives since at best it would merely create false empathy, which is nothing other than another myth added on to a long line of myths and misrepresentations.

Canada is built on myths;  myths of land ownership; myths of white Anglo Saxon male entitlement; myths of history that the English built Canada from nothing; myths that native objection and protests are against the law, etc. The best that non-natives can do is to expose the myths in history and in law and in public opinion and correct them with fact. This is not an easy task, but false empathy only makes things worse.


notaradical
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sknguy II wrote:

A part of decolonization is to challenge your own thoughts. Understanding the past gives the present a context. The experiences and conflicts that other peoples had experienced is different from the oppression, cultural genocide and violence that was and continues to be inflicted on Indigenous peoples in Canada. Out of respect for the struggles of other peoples, I don’t find it particularly helpful in dealing with the uniqueness of the many different struggles by generalizing and categorizing all into one. Calling our experience apartheid does no service to our experience and lumps us in with the category of other.

What do the “continuous attempts to alleviate the suffering” mean to you? What problem exactly is Canada trying to solve? I think Canada should try to understand the cause of the problem before launching into more “solutions”. In the past, Indigenous people didn’t have a problem and had initially tried to share the land with the newcomers. The problems were fabrications. Indigenous peoples became a "hinderance" for the needs of the newcomers. The problems continue today not as a result of the needs of Indigenous peoples, but because of the needs of Canada.

I think you should try to think of the problem from a different perspective. To ask yourself what would it be like to have your identity stripped away? To be punished for speaking your language and having your culture and traditions outlawed. I think that you need to decolonize your thoughts and look at the “problem” and contemplate what your part is in it. Whose problem is Canada really trying to solve?

 

I actually think we frame the question quite similarly. As I said, I don't claim any sort of clairvoyance into this issue. I try to look at it objectively, much like a world citizen would when looking at Israel for example. My concern is simply that we apply our sentiments universally. In relation to the issue of apartheid, it means subjecting our nation to the same amount of scrutiny that we apply to foreign lands. To say nothing of the emotional basis for these arguments, there are I think valid legal arguments to be made that we should not be here. The question then becomes how to come to terms with the ramifications of such a realization. I compare our complicity to the blind universal acceptance of economy as framed by neoliberal intellectuals. We live our daily lives in adherence to their principles and try to fight inadequacies from within, not even stopping for a moment to determine whether it is the system as a whole that is the problem.

 

Fidel wrote:

Apartheid in Canada? Babb to visit Peguis Indian Reserve CBC News video from 1987

Physical genocide of indigenous people by armed government troops is no longer politically acceptable. Today it's done by policies for maintaining high unemployment and poverty on segregated reserves across Canada, police brutality etc, and by policies for phasing out native status by some date in the future. Canadian governments have clearly been guilty of hypocrisy when mouthing support for human rights in other countries.

 

That was a very interesting video. Thanks Fidel. It was fascinating that neither of the commentators got the point of the chief's actions and instead tried to frame him as an opportunist. Obviously, enlisting the help of a known oppressor is not the ideal, but when nobody listens to you, who do you turn to?

 

NDPP wrote:

An Indictment of the Courts for Treason and Complicity in Genocide

http://bcgreen.com/~samuel/fraud+treason.html

 

I'll take a look at this one later. Looks like a fun night of reading!

 

It is apt to blame our government for their action (or inaction) regarding the indigenous issue. However, aren't we complicit in this as well? In buying or renting a residence on occupied land, aren't we guilty parties? Everything we do on lands that may have been expropriated would then constitute some sort of crime of occupation, no?

 

 


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

Yes, but our presence here is now a fact and as one Haida Elder wisely said: 'You haven't left us enough timber to build boats to send you all back, so we're going to have to talk about how we are to live together. The trouble is we've found no honour in the people we've had to deal with.'

The first thing to do is to determine, recognize and acknowledge the true and atual ownership, rights, title and jurisdiction of the Indigenous nations. These, like the Palestinians' are substantially more extensive than the colonialist entities Israel and Canada allow. Also, the various processes for 'resolving' the issue are devised and heavily weighted in favour of the colonizer and a small Indigenous elite of negotiators - but are essentially designed to deliver 'extinguishment with consent' and 'cede release and surrender'.

Once the actual extent of Indigenous rights, title and jurisdiction have been determined, we can begin some good faith negotiations as to how the sharing process is to be implemented. Such things as the Two Row Wampum may provide some helpful guidance - but the point is that the present status quo has been arrived at by a process of fraud, constitutional treason and genocide. (see my link above) The Israeli settler state, like Canada's has been malevolent and ill intentioned. This must stop. And since it is OUR government that is doing the usurpation and colonizing, yes we have a responsibility to stop it or be complicit in the crimes ongoing.


Charter Rights
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Ha ha. The "problem" as Einstein said is trying to solve problems with the same kinds of thinking that caused them in the first place. Ha ha.

In all due respect, it is impossible for us to "apply our sentiments universally." Our colonial legacy tend to view things on a basis of hoarding and greed. We see things pretty much in black and white terms, "with us or agin't us" thinking.

On the other hand the Mohawks I know tell me they believe more in inclusion rather than exclusion and sharing rather than owning. However, in order to establish their sovereignty and rights they have had to demand land and rights back as if they hold exclusive ownership, solely because as colonials we see that this is the only way one can have a relationship with land.

Ask a farmer if we can dump pesticides in his hay field that one day he will feed to his cattle. His relationship with the land is not monetary per se but symbiotic. He doesn't mind sharing the hay with horses, goats or sheep (well sometime cattle farmers don't care for sheep) as long as one does not deplete the resource. But when corporations come knocking promising money to kill his cattle and poison the land, he might take exception.

So if we are going to involve ourselves in "getting along" with native people, we have to take another look at land and resources, wild life and the environment AND it can only be done through the guidance of native people from the area. Otherwise we are doing nothing other than prolonging the problem we started in the first place with our way of thinking. It requires a shift in paradigm worldview before we have the capacity to even begin to understand where native people are in the 21st century. Of course if we decolonize then we have to replace that worldview with another and that opens us to the possibility of assimilating into native culture and worldview. Most people would object, but then again most people deny we are the cause of their problems...

 

 

 


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Apartheid was designed after studying the oppressive regimes in the southern states and on Canada's native reserves.   The Haida have many wise elders.  As a white guy it would be hard to know where to go back to.  I feel like Acadia is my ancestral home but my family roots on that side only go back 360 years.  The other side is easier to trace since they moved to NB a mere 155 years ago.  I am not sure where "back" is when it comes to going back to where I came from.

I now live in BC and I always try to be aware of which FN's land I am on.  I know enough native people from various nations to know that I have nothing to contribute to a debate about the nature their relationship to the Crown. 

The reconciliation process after the genocidal residential school program is hopefully helping some people recover from my countries systemic racism.  As well I was happy to see the new monument at Batouche and the governments acceptance of the Metis history by calling the response to the invasion of the Sask. River valley the North West Resistance.

I think that our parliament and FN's came up with a great blueprint that unfortunately has been forgotten before most of its recommendations have come close to being implemented.

Quote:

Rendering accurately the history of a cross-cultural relationship is not simple or straightforward. History is an not an exact science. Past events have been recorded and interpreted by human beings who, much like ourselves, have understood them through the filter of their own values, perceptions and general philosophies of life and society. As with all histories, therefore, it is clear that how an event or a series of events is chronicled over time is shaped by the perceptions of the historian. Even among historians of the same period and cultural outlook, substantial differences of interpretation may exist. Consider how much greater such differences in interpretation must be when it comes to perspectives rooted in radically different cultural traditions.

Important differences derive from the methodology of history — how the past is examined, recorded and communicated. The non-Aboriginal historical tradition in Canada is rooted in western scientific methodology and emphasizes scholarly documentation and written records.1 It seeks objectivity and assumes that persons recording or interpreting events attempt to escape the limitations of their own philosophies, cultures and outlooks.

In the non-Aboriginal tradition, at least until recently, the purpose of historical study has often been the analysis of particular events in an effort to establish what 'really' happened as a matter of objective historical truth or, more modestly, to marshal facts in support of a particular interpretation of past events.

While interpretations may vary with the historian, the goal has been to come up with an account that best describes all the events under study. Moreover, underlying the western humanist intellectual tradition in the writing of history is a focus on human beings as the centrepiece of history, including the notion of the march of progress and the inevitability of societal evolution. This historical tradition is also secular and distinguishes what is scientific from what is religious or spiritual, on the assumption that these are two different and separable aspects of the human experience.

The Aboriginal tradition in the recording of history is neither linear nor steeped in the same notions of social progress and evolution. Nor is it usually human-centred in the same way as the western scientific tradition, for it does not assume that human beings are anything more than one — and not necessarily the most important — element of the natural order of the universe. Moreover, the Aboriginal historical tradition is an oral one, involving legends, stories and accounts handed down through the generations in oral form. It is less focused on establishing objective truth and assumes that the teller of the story is so much a part of the event being described that it would be arrogant to presume to classify or categorize the event exactly or for all time.

In the Aboriginal tradition the purpose of repeating oral accounts from the past is broader than the role of written history in western societies. It may be to educate the listener, to communicate aspects of culture, to socialize people into a cultural tradition, or to validate the claims of a particular family to authority and prestige.2 Those who hear the oral accounts draw their own conclusions from what they have heard, and they do so in the particular context (time, place and situation) of the telling. Thus the meaning to be drawn from an oral account depends on who is telling it, the circumstances in which the account is told, and the interpretation the listener gives to what has been heard.

Oral accounts of the past include a good deal of subjective experience. They are not simply a detached recounting of factual events but, rather, are "facts enmeshed in the stories of a lifetime".3 They are also likely to be rooted in particular locations, making reference to particular families and communities. This contributes to a sense that there are many histories, each characterized in part by how a people see themselves, how they define their identity in relation to their environment, and how they express their uniqueness as a people.

Unlike the western scientific tradition, which creates a sense of distance in time between the listener or reader and the events being described, the tendency of Aboriginal perspectives is to create a sense of immediacy by encouraging listeners to imagine that they are participating in the past event being recounted. Ideas about how the universe was created offer a particularly compelling example of differences in approach to interpreting the past. In the western intellectual tradition, the origin of the world, whether in an act of creation or a cosmic big bang, is something that occurred once and for all in a far distant past remote from the present except in a religious or scientific sense. In Aboriginal historical traditions, the  
particular creation story of each people, although it finds its origins in the past, also, and more importantly, speaks to the present. It invites listeners to participate in the cycle of creation through their understanding that, as parts of a world that is born, dies and is reborn in the observable cycle of days and seasons, they too are part of a natural order, members of a distinct people who share in that order.

As the example of creation stories has begun to suggest, conceptions of history or visions of the future can be expressed in different ways, which in turn involve different ways of representing time. The first portrays time as an arrow moving from the past into the unknown future; this is a linear perspective. The second portrays time as a circle that returns on itself and repeats fundamental aspects of experience. This is acyclic point of view.

As shown in Figure 3.1, from a linear perspective the historical relationship established between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people is a matter of the past. However regrettable some aspects of this relationship may have been, it is over and done with. The present relationship grows out of the past, however, and can be improved upon. So we look to the future to establish a new relationship, which will be more balanced and equitable.

From the second perspective, the relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal groups has moved through a cycle (Figure 3.2). At the high point of the cycle, we find the original relationship established in the early days of contact between Aboriginal peoples and newcomers, especially in the course of the fur trade. Despite some variations, this relationship often featured a rough-and-ready equality and involved a strong element of mutual respect. True, this respect sprang in part from a healthy regard for the military capacities of the other parties and from a pragmatic grasp of the advantages afforded by trade and co-operation. However, it also involved a guarded appreciation of the other's distinctive cultures and a recognition of certain underlying commonalities. From this beginning, there was a slow downturn, as the military strength of the Aboriginal parties gradually waned, as the fur trade dwindled in importance and as non-Aboriginal people increased dramatically in number. Having passed through the low point in the cycle, where adherence to the principles of equality and respect was almost negligible, there is now a slow upswing as efforts are made torenew the original relationship and to restore the balance that it represented.

Although it would be wrong to draw hard and fast distinctions in this area, we have found that many Aboriginal people tend to take a cyclic perspective, while the linear approach is more common in the larger Canadian society. Differences of this kind are important, not because they represent absolute distinctions between peoples — cultural worlds are too rich

A Linear Perspective on the Historical Relationship A Cyclic Perspective on the Historical Relationship

 

and complex for that — but because they serve to illustrate, however inadequately, that there are different ways of expressing ideas that, at a deeper level, may have much in common.

To summarize, the history of the relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people is represented quite differently in the two cultures. The contrast between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal historical traditions suggests different purposes for revisiting the past, different methodologies and different contents and forms. We have chosen to present an account of past events that recognizes and accepts the legitimacy of the historical perspectives and traditions of both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples.4 What follows is our best effort to be true to both historical traditions as well as to lay the groundwork for the rest of our report.

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/webarchives/20071211050944/http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ch/rcap/sg/sg4_e.html http://www.trc-cvr.ca/overview.html
http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/ap/rrc-eng.asp

 


sknguy II
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Charter Rights wrote:

On the other hand the Mohawks I know tell me they believe more in inclusion rather than exclusion and sharing rather than owning. However, in order to establish their sovereignty and rights they have had to demand land and rights back as if they hold exclusive ownership, solely because as colonials we see that this is the only way one can have a relationship with land.

For my part, and although a usable tool, I can't see paradigm thinking being entirely a fete de compli. It is a problem having to function within the legal framework of another society/culture. I think that a system of legal plurality would be an only solution. Both cultures seek to establish social systems that express the desire for human justice. Which I'm pretty sure is a common human goal. But it is only the strategies that are employed by the two worldviews which are different. If you tell Canada that your society doesn't believe in institutions like property and ownership, human right, or equality, those conjectures simply wouldn't compute in current thinking. These are ideas that several elders have told me are incompatible with their understandings of Anishnabek law. Canada can only step outside "its" own box of conceptual thinking to achieve a paradigm perspective. Unfortunately the systems of the two worldviews are paradoxical. Entirely different boxes. Canadian law cannot test for things outside that toolbox, outside the conceptual thinking.

But how does one proceed? There's no question that Indigenous people need to reestablish an "unencumbered" relationship with the land. There's both the resolution of land claims and dealing with the Crown's interest in current reserve land. The relationship with land is a part of the obligatory worldview, and an important source of the legal system. There's also the need to renew this other relationship with Canada, and establish the dialogue of legal pluralism (companion constitutions). In terms of "kicking" the settlers out... our relationship with the land has always compeled us to share it. That's not a question. And there's also things that Canada has to respect as part of our relationship and obligations. But you are right that it should start with at least paradigm thinking. But that challenge will only get us so far.

Although it may open a door for critical thinking, to compare Indigenous struggles with those of the Palestinian struggles could not sufficiently compliment the complexities of the two realities. It confines any real solutions to the expectations to those who created the "problems". Our relationship with Canada hasn't changed over the past hundred and fifty years. Even though the relationship has certainly evolved, the nature of it continues. Canada has gained much through the years by maintaining the control and dependency of Indigenous peoples and has a tough time stepping beyond the conditions of that relationship.


notaradical
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sknguy II wrote:

Charter Rights wrote:

On the other hand the Mohawks I know tell me they believe more in inclusion rather than exclusion and sharing rather than owning. However, in order to establish their sovereignty and rights they have had to demand land and rights back as if they hold exclusive ownership, solely because as colonials we see that this is the only way one can have a relationship with land.

For my part, and although a usable tool, I can't see paradigm thinking being entirely a fete de compli. It is a problem having to function within the legal framework of another society/culture. I think that a system of legal plurality would be an only solution. Both cultures seek to establish social systems that express the desire for human justice. Which I'm pretty sure is a common human goal. But it is only the strategies that are employed by the two worldviews which are different. If you tell Canada that your society doesn't believe in institutions like property and ownership, human right, or equality, those conjectures simply wouldn't compute in current thinking. These are ideas that several elders have told me are incompatible with their understandings of Anishnabek law. Canada can only step outside "its" own box of conceptual thinking to achieve a paradigm perspective. Unfortunately the systems of the two worldviews are paradoxical. Entirely different boxes. Canadian law cannot test for things outside that toolbox, outside the conceptual thinking.

But how does one proceed? There's no question that Indigenous people need to reestablish an "unencumbered" relationship with the land. There's both the resolution of land claims and dealing with the Crown's interest in current reserve land. The relationship with land is a part of the obligatory worldview, and an important source of the legal system. There's also the need to renew this other relationship with Canada, and establish the dialogue of legal pluralism (companion constitutions). In terms of "kicking" the settlers out... our relationship with the land has always compeled us to share it. That's not a question. And there's also things that Canada has to respect as part of our relationship and obligations. But you are right that it should start with at least paradigm thinking. But that challenge will only get us so far.

Although it may open a door for critical thinking, to compare Indigenous struggles with those of the Palestinian struggles could not sufficiently compliment the complexities of the two realities. It confines any real solutions to the expectations to those who created the "problems". Our relationship with Canada hasn't changed over the past hundred and fifty years. Even though the relationship has certainly evolved, the nature of it continues. Canada has gained much through the years by maintaining the control and dependency of Indigenous peoples and has a tough time stepping beyond the conditions of that relationship.

 

I think I comprehend your opinion more clearly after reading this. You are certainly correct in that the value systems of the indigenous and colonizing peoples are at odds. My initial phrasing of the question was shallow. Thank you for shining a light on it.

Nonetheless, this is an issue that deserves more attention, if not in public life, then at least on these boards.


Charter Rights
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sknguy II wrote:

For my part, and although a usable tool, I can't see paradigm thinking being entirely a fete de compli. It is a problem having to function within the legal framework of another society/culture. I think that a system of legal plurality would be an only solution. Both cultures seek to establish social systems that express the desire for human justice. Which I'm pretty sure is a common human goal. But it is only the strategies that are employed by the two worldviews which are different. If you tell Canada that your society doesn't believe in institutions like property and ownership, human right, or equality, those conjectures simply wouldn't compute in current thinking. These are ideas that several elders have told me are incompatible with their understandings of Anishnabek law. Canada can only step outside "its" own box of conceptual thinking to achieve a paradigm perspective. Unfortunately the systems of the two worldviews are paradoxical. Entirely different boxes. Canadian law cannot test for things outside that toolbox, outside the conceptual thinking.

I wasn't suggesting that competing worldviews was in anyway a solution but no less than the problem from an aboriginal perspective. To test legal frameworks within a single system has limited aboriginal political and economic freedom, and left the protesters of oppression criminalized for their objections.

sknguy II wrote:
But how does one proceed? There's no question that Indigenous people need to reestablish an "unencumbered" relationship with the land. There's both the resolution of land claims and dealing with the Crown's interest in current reserve land. The relationship with land is a part of the obligatory worldview, and an important source of the legal system. There's also the need to renew this other relationship with Canada, and establish the dialogue of legal pluralism (companion constitutions). In terms of "kicking" the settlers out... our relationship with the land has always compeled us to share it. That's not a question. And there's also things that Canada has to respect as part of our relationship and obligations. But you are right that it should start with at least paradigm thinking. But that challenge will only get us so far.

From my perspective, enlightened settlers want the same thing from government as native peoples do - non-interference and sharing of land and resources. This was the relationship established for the most part on the original settlement frontiers until the Family Compact movement with its greed and self-serving ambitions soured it. So obtaining ~some~ settler support as allies goes back to the heart of the issue.

I think the Royal Proclamation 1763 provided the necessary tool for moving forward. Unfortunately the lower courts still do not recognize the rights recognized under it, or the future that it projects as an inclusion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

"And We do hereby strictly forbid, on Pain of our Displeasure, all our loving Subjects from making any Purchases or Settlements whatever, or taking Possession of any of the Lands above reserved. without our especial leave and Licence for that Purpose first obtained.

And. We do further strictly enjoin and require all Persons whatever who have either wilfully or inadvertently seated themselves upon any Lands within the Countries above described. or upon any other Lands which, not having been ceded to or purchased by Us, are still reserved to the said Indians as aforesaid, forthwith to remove themselves from such Settlements. "

Confirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada, this recognizes that aboriginal title is a sui generis (unique title not described under common law" and remains so unless and until surrender to the Crown. This is not a final outcome it is the beginning of any discussion on land rights and title since most of Canada was never ceded to the Crown, and some that was, was done improperly. So the starting point is recognition and affirmation by all of us that there must be the assumption that lands were never surrendered or failed the tests for surrender set out in the RP 1763.

{As a quick sidebar to this point, the "surrender" of sui generis title is not a surrender of land, since that is impossible where land was jointly occupied and titled by other First Nations. The any intention through treaty or otherwise of a surrender could only be a surrender of that particular nations rights to the land, not the physical transfer of land title.}

While the government refuses to acknowledge fully the Royal Proclamation 's establishment of rights, and the lower courts tend not to get into constitutional issues outside of their scope of knowledge, it is fruitless to approach the problem of recognition of rights and title either politically or legally.  That leaves only with education as a mainstream institution where commonality can be found, critically analyzed and reconciled. There needs to be education on the real istory between the settlers and native peoples prior to the 1840's Family Compact. And the information must be disseminated to more students, and scholars such that the debates on aboriginal issues and solutions are filled with facts and experiences and not the typical racism, is-identification, hyperbole and pejoratives we often see comment sections and forums peppered with. Rather, facts and references are the best tool against that mass ignorance that exists in Canada today.

In terms of justice, I don't believe that is what is intended- at least by my Mohawk friends who regularly teach me my important lesson - in any reconcilliation. I would suggest that the best word to describe it in English would be balance....although they often refer to it as a skanna (not sure of the spelling). While I have been told that it means peace, it also envelopes the concept of security and good thinking, which are all interdependent. So "balance" between competing principles is my 'Anglish twang on the concept conveyed to me.

sknguy II wrote:
Although it may open a door for critical thinking, to compare Indigenous struggles with those of the Palestinian struggles could not sufficiently compliment the complexities of the two realities. It confines any real solutions to the expectations to those who created the "problems". Our relationship with Canada hasn't changed over the past hundred and fifty years. Even though the relationship has certainly evolved, the nature of it continues. Canada has gained much through the years by maintaining the control and dependency of Indigenous peoples and has a tough time stepping beyond the conditions of that relationship.

I tend to agree that comparing native struggles here in Canada to Palestinian issues in the middle east presents the same problem we have in competing worldviews. To top it off, doing that from my perspective adds a third dimension in presenting analysis from a western worldview, which also competes with an aboriginal, and eastern / Hebrew / Christian worldview. It would be disengenuous to attempt such a venture without first acknowledging our failures from the beginning. So for this I will not venture into that discussion other than to say that is has no constructive purpose in my opinion.


sknguy II
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Joined: Apr 20 2009

Charter Rights wrote:

{As a quick sidebar to this point, the "surrender" of sui generis title is not a surrender of land, since that is impossible where land was jointly occupied and titled by other First Nations. The any intention through treaty or otherwise of a surrender could only be a surrender of that particular nations rights to the land, not the physical transfer of land title.}

Yes... that"s very true, lol. The only thing that could be surrendered was space, and a shared space at that. But certainly communities undertook to maintain sacred relationships and responsibiliies towards certain lands.

Charter Rights wrote:

I would suggest that the best word to describe it in English would be balance....although they often refer to it as a skanna (not sure of the spelling). While I have been told that it means peace, it also envelopes the concept of security and good thinking, which are all interdependent. So "balance" between competing principles is my 'Anglish twang on the concept conveyed to me.

Ah... thanks for reminding me. Balanced relationships are exactly what justice is about. Because we lack access to our relationship with the land, we're unhealthy. Brcause western societies' relationships (well actually all of us) with the environmen is imbalanced the environment is unhealthy. Any healthy relationship needs balance, beginning with personal balance. And your right that just as my security is ensured by the obligaions of others towards me, so too should your security be assured. It isn't about holding rights, but the balance of responsibilities we have in our relationships.


notaradical
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Charter Rights and sknguy II, I appreciate your highly developed opinions on this matter. I think this topic needs to be broadcast to a wider audience. Would you two consider collaborating on some sort of op-ed that could be pasted on Rabble's home page? I don't make the decisions around here, but this seems to me a topic that is past due for discussion. Considering the popular calls for revision of the human - earth relationship around the world, this could very well be a prime launching pad for critical thought.


sknguy II
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Sorry for the continued thread drift, but it’s true Indigenous social institutions is a topic that’s of fundamental importance, and is something incumbent upon us to revitalize. But what’s most concerning for me is the manner in which Indigenous knowledge is treated. So much of it has been appropriated, misinterpreted and dismissed. How does a worldview based on respect and humility compete against the lure of individualistic thinking? I beleive western perspectives have very much been the bully-on-the-block worldview throughout our history and it’s tough to find footing when the exclusion and oppression are so systemic and truistic. The modern day problem is who has been taking it upon themseles to define a notion like “universality”. I hate the way the word is bandied about. It’s oppressive and really stifling.

There are a lot of good people writing very good articles out there. And I appreciate this forum for allowing me to share my own understanding and opinion. But the one thing I’m unsure of is how knowledge is received. Plus the fact that I am by no means a traditionalist, and actually consider myself a secularist thinker... one from an Indigenous tradition. The principles of Indigenous governance are very much misunderstood I think mainly because of the way we receive Indigenous knowledge.

For instance, I’m struggling to understand the traditional principle of “letting go” and moving on, and how that relates to the other things that our communities do. This principle is paradoxical to the larger society’s pursuit of immortality and how that relates, among other things, to their interpretations of life’s meanings versus my ancestor’s perspectives. Also, how does this difference apply to economics, the exercise of Laws and conflict resolution, its application in our relationships with knowledge, or its application to our relationships with the environment? Western attitudes are in the habit of taking a snippet of knowledge and apply it in isolation not understanding that a relatively simply concept can have implications across a whole spectrum of social institutions and circumstances.

Attitudes are oppressive though. I think there’s a body of human experience that’s being left disparaged by our obsession to define “universally human” qualities. The real breadth of human diversity is being stifled and farmed by the greater political monoculture. But, I have no doubt that at some point Indigenous peoples will finally step out from under that oppression. That knowledge is simply too important. Modern political theory can only take its societies so far given the focus of thinking.

Edit: what I meant by that last statement was that paradigm thinking can only take our experience in just one direction.


notaradical
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I'm guilty of buying into the Western paradigm. sknguyII, your posts are very insightful. Can you recommend any sources to help me understand this perspective more clearly?


sknguy II
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I'd have to say that a large portion of what I've learned has been through the instructions and teachings of knowledge keepers. I find stuff on the internet has at least some sampling of colonized thinking in it... and that's fair enough... and understandably so. The stuff I like has been mostly in the form of academic papers. Hmm, good places to rumage would be here, here, and here. Purich Publishing has a good collection of books here. I've bought books from them in the past. And no... I'm not that kind of viral marketer Laughing. Indigenous governance though is another story Wink. You might also find interesting things at the Native Law Centre in Saskatoon here. I'd gotten publications from them as well. Northern Shoveler has some good links above. His link to the report by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in particular should be a must read for anyone. Now there's a monumentally important document. I also like to check out the references in papers like this one by Merrilee Rasmussen.

Honestly, I do hold the most weight in my conversations with knowledge keepers. It's their knowledge with which I gauge others. One thought concerning knowledge though. At some point in our trasition into adulthood there comes a time when we have to move on from the legends and storytelling to formulate a more complete understanding of our relationships. The process of earning knowledge doesn't usually stop at instruction, and should continue through our own critical thought processes. Although there is good stuff that others have done. The clearest conceptions of things have always come from the insights of the knowledge keepers.


sknguy II
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There's another book that might be of interest to you. Earth to Property: Colonization, Decolonization and Capitalism by Anthony Hall, McGill-Queen's press. I didn't realize it was just last spring when it was published. From his bio, Hall was at one time a native studies prof who now teaches globalization studies at the U of Lethbridge. It's apparently quite an ambitious book at 1000 pages. I haven't read it myself but I believe it's mainly a critical look at the historical western relationship with economy and the Earth.

I think that explosure to Indigenous perspectives helps a person look critically and in very different ways at the institutions of society. The matter of factness of things like property, and say apartheid, exemplifies the fact that sometimes we need something of shock value to get beyond our daily preoccupations. I am curious about his treatment of Indigenous thoughts on the concept of property and whether this is simply a byline for the usual western narative.


N.Beltov
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It may also be helpful to look outside of Canada for the description of Indigenous/settler relations especially in cases where there is a positive trend happening. Evo Morales, President of Bolivia, is the first Indigenous President in Latin America and the efforts of the government that he is a part of to make use of Indigenous views, traditions and perspectives might be very helpful for babblers.


NDPP
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Anishinabek Mourn Passing of Grandfather WIlliam Commanda

http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/August2011/03/c9117.html

"Commanda is the carrier of three wampum belts of historical and spiritual importance: the Seven Fires Prophecy Belt - which represents choice, the 1700s Welcoming Belt - which represents sharing our grand natural resources and values of First Peoples with the newcomers, and the Jay Treaty Border-Crossing Belt - which recognizes Turtle island as a coherent entity.."

Condolences


Taqulik
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As mentioned above, Apartheid is a legislation passed by South Africa that basically discriminated against Black people.  It was inspired by the Canadian Indian Act as they came here and looked at the Act and thought it was a good idea and could be used in South Africa.  We do have a type of apartheid in Canada, reserves being one element of it and the Indian Act deals mainly with the issue of race.

Now, in terms of lands, as we all know, there has been a collision between European concepts of property and Aboriginal concepts - thus it is the European concept that has been used to the detriment of Aboriginal legal traditions and even today, courts would normally use the Common Law concept of property to define title.  There has been a small opening in a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in which Justice Lebel opened the door to a blend of Common Law and Aboriginal legal traditions (unfortunately I can't remember the name of that case but I recall it was from New Brunswick).  

Of course, between "nations" the transfer of title occurs generally by treaty and it is somewhat what happened in Canada.  Except that the old treaties were between people who had very different legal concepts of title and very different cultures, one being written, the others were generally oral.  Thus, the signing of those treaties is extremely questionable in terms of really representing the intent of the parties.  Modern treaties are of course different as they are negotiated in a much better environment. So, it is fair to say that in most of Canada title is questionable when based on old treaties or on no treaty at all.

There is one old treaty that is now before the Interamerican Commission on Human Rights: the Douglas treaty on Vancouver Island and the sale of land to a railway company.  The Hulq'umi'num Treaty Group is challenging that sale of their traditional territory and what is particularly interesting about this case is that they didn't go through Canadian courts but went directly to the ICHR and convinced them that they had no hope of having a Canadian court deal with this matter effectively (you have to have exhausted all legal recourses in your own country before having access to the ICHR).  Indeed, for over 30 years, starting with the Calder case, First Nations have tried to assert title to their lands but no final judgment has ever been delivered...  So, this case is worth monitoring.

Finally, it is trite to say that "newcomers" are here to stay - most of us have nowhere else to go anyway, my family having been in Canada for about 400 years...  But we need to address this issue and we need to enter into a decolonization process, with the aim of redressing the situation for Aboriginal peoples and have us live in harmony together.  This is easier said than done and no such process has ever started here in Canada but reconciliation will depend on whether we can achieve that process of decolonization.


sknguy II
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Taqulik wrote:

...Finally, it is trite to say that "newcomers" are here to stay - most of us have nowhere else to go anyway, my family having been in Canada for about 400 years...  But we need to address this issue and we need to enter into a decolonization process, with the aim of redressing the situation for Aboriginal peoples and have us live in harmony together.  This is easier said than done and no such process has ever started here in Canada but reconciliation will depend on whether we can achieve that process of decolonization.

Just to share a reflection on what I've learned about the "us" and "them" relationships we have with the rest of Canada. There's much ado about racial distinctions between different peoples. Much of the world would relate identity in those terms. For we in Canada thinking in racial terms, such as the process of defining Indian Status for example, is principally an introduced practice. But from my ancestry, I've come to learn that the term Anishnabek, or Anishnabe the singular, of itself makes no racial distinction. To be Anishnabe is simply to be human. If you speak an Inuit language, or Cree, or Navaho your Anishnabe. If you spoke English, German or Cantonese you’re still Anishnabe. I'd probably refer to my own ancestry as Nakawe Anishnabe, which would reflect the language my ancestors and community spoke. Nakawe is a prairies dialects of Ojibwe.

When the newcomers arrived, the stories are that they were to be thought of as our brothers and sisters. As humans we’re all related. The term Anishnabek is really just an expression of the way in which we see humanity’s place in the world. Anishnabek are distinct from the land, environment and the creatures that populate it. In modern times, we've come to see being Anishnabe as a specific identity with a specific cultural heritage, which doesn’t really reflect what I’ve come to understand it to mean. My ancestors expected that all humans shared in the same obligations and responsibilities that they themselves lived by. And many of their neighbours certainly shared their worldview perspective. Those kinds of expectations could probably apply in the same manner that Canada may have expected Indigenous peoples to understand European ideas, like that of the concept of property in relation to the land.

It concerns me when people try to define and label a collection of specific concepts or ideas as being universally human. Because such intents can actually be exclusory. The treaties that were negotiated contain many culturally specific concepts that don’t work well in another social system. This was so mainly because Canada was the dominant partner and author of the treaties. I'm reflecting specifically on my own prairie treaty area. In a modern context even ideas, like universality and equality, may be ideas that don't conceptually translate. Much of what we negotiated in the treaties likely didn't translate conceptually either and are, more likely than not, actually paradoxical in fundament substance and nature.

Why are the old ideas and concepts of my ancestors important to hold on to? As an indigenous person, not only do I personally have responsibilities to carry on these ideas, but they are a part of what defines me as a human, carrying distinctly human responsibilities. Canada has taught us to think mainly in terms of our human entitlements. To un-think that will be a part of the decolonization we'll have to come to terms with. And in order to better appreciate the values and many conceptual realities that our ancestors lived by and worked to preserve, we need to decolonize and un-think many modern things.

Taqulik wrote:

...Of course, between "nations" the transfer of title occurs generally by treaty and it is somewhat what happened in Canada.  Except that the old treaties were between people who had very different legal concepts of title and very different cultures, one being written, the others were generally oral.  Thus, the signing of those treaties is extremely questionable in terms of really representing the intent of the parties...

...Modern treaties are of course different as they are negotiated in a much better environment. So, it is fair to say that in most of Canada title is questionable when based on old treaties or on no treaty at all...

Recently I attended a forum where the AFN’s Yukon Regional Chief, Eric Morris, spoke about a process whereby a number of Yukon First Nations were negotiating a self-government agreement with Canada. Last winter the group concluded an agreement on the administration of Justice. Mr Morris went on to described that the group had determined that it was important to tackle the issue of Justice administration first before anything else because such a system would be needed in establishing reconciliation and dispute settlement mechanisms before proceeding to finalise the other areas of self-government.

As a part of the requirements that Canada had placed on the negotiations, the subsequent Justice agreement was to include consideration and protection for the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As Mr Morris was noting this reality the thought brought a wry smile to his face. At first I though the smile was a response to the irony of Canada’s continuing habit of placing conditions on what is suppose to be a self-determining process. But the smile was actually related to something else that Mr Morris immediately described.

Mr Morris went on to explain how, during the negotiations, he sought the advice and knowledge from Elders. He went on to note how he also sought the advice from one uncle in particular. On one occasion his uncle told him “You know what they [Canada] mean by rights is like...” and he recited a Tlingit expression that I can’t recall. Mr Morris went on to explain that the Tlingit expression meant “the way we treat the things we use”.

I can’t claim to understand Tlingit practices but I think I can relate to that meaning. I know that supposed universal concepts like “rights” are foreign and have no expression in traditional thinking. The Tlingit expression didn’t seem to say anyhing about the substances of our relationships with things; but importantly it referred to the use rather than the ownership of things. From what I’ve come to understand, “things” in my own life are a part of my relationships. If not in some cases a part of a tangible and unique relationship. I have accountabilities for such things in the same manner that I have accountabilities and responsibilities for all my relationships.

“Things” are a part of my burden of responsibilities to care for, maintain and make use of responsibly. Accountabilities and the burdens of our undertakings are a part of what makes us human. An idea that I’m sure my ancestors thought was another "universally" human concept. We all have to be responsible for our actions and noone should be able to remove me from my own accountabilities in my relationships. The things I use don’t belong to me specifically other than that which represents the burden of the undertaking.

Had such an idea been expressed at the treaty negotiations the likelihood would have been their dismissal as unpractical and inferior to European ideas. Such thoughts would not have translated. In fact I don’t think they can translate into today’s legal systems, simply because everything today serves Eurocentric traditions. We're stuck having to accommodate the traditions of another system, such as accomodateing the ideas contained in Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as in the Yukon Justice experience. There’s so much more I've yet to learn and understand. But what stikes me most of what I’ve learned is the inadequecies of having a single system of Laws. At some point Indigenous ideas will have to find their expressions in their own form of written Law because it will be difficult to find a host within Western conceptual traditions.


NDPP
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BC Aboriginals Ask China to Raise Human Rights Issues with Harper on PM's Visit

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/bc-aboriginals-ask-china-to...

"The letter to Mr Hu details a long list of issues from the number of missing and murdered aboriginal women to natives being mistreated by police to the outsized number of First Nations people in prison. It also says the Harper government is promoting resource development without aboriginal support.

The letter to Chinese media focuses on the Alliance's concerns about the Gateway Pipeline, which would ship bitumen from the oil sands to the West Coast across land claimed by the bands..."


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