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Residents of Toronto public housing four times more likely to be murder victims

WilderMore
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/residents-of-toronto-public-housing-four-times-more-likely-to-be-murder-victims/article2046798/

 

Often dispiriting, life in Toronto public housing can also be perilous: A tenant is at least four times as likely to be murdered as someone living elsewhere in the GTA, statistics suggest.


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Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Proof positive that the social housing model does not work.  These places need to be replaced by housing co-operatives that are run democratically. This kind of social housing disempowers community because the decisions are all taken by people who don't live in the housing.  In BC we have both this type of public housing that is run by BC Housing and also sec. 96 co-ops.  The public housing here looks more like the TO mess than any of the self governing co-ops.


Aristotleded24
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Joined: May 24 2005

Northern Shoveler wrote:
Proof positive that the social housing model does not work.  These places need to be replaced by housing co-operatives that are run democratically. This kind of social housing disempowers community because the decisions are all taken by people who don't live in the housing.  In BC we have both this type of public housing that is run by BC Housing and also sec. 96 co-ops.  The public housing here looks more like the TO mess than any of the self governing co-ops.

My housing strategy would be to create some sort of public agency, be it a fund, Crown Corporation or whatever, to enable tenants in public housing and rental properties to buy their buildings and do exactly that. Takes both the government bureaucracy and real estate speculators out of the housing business.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Northern Shoveler wrote:
Proof positive that the social housing model does not work.  These places need to be replaced by housing co-operatives that are run democratically. This kind of social housing disempowers community because the decisions are all taken by people who don't live in the housing.  In BC we have both this type of public housing that is run by BC Housing and also sec. 96 co-ops.  The public housing here looks more like the TO mess than any of the self governing co-ops.

My housing strategy would be to create some sort of public agency, be it a fund, Crown Corporation or whatever, to enable tenants in public housing and rental properties to buy their buildings and do exactly that. Takes both the government bureaucracy and real estate speculators out of the housing business.

I agree but it will be far harder to build the cooperative values that my co-op runs on in the middle of a gang war.  Hard to tell people they have to participate in the governance when they didn't sign on for that role when they moved in.  Making a housing co-op run well requires participation by every unit both to make it affordable and to build community.  I am not sure how that would work in the Jane Finch corridor.  

There would have to be money available for training people in how to run a co-op and a fund available for community projects.  I have no idea what those would but I'll bet the residents know exactly what is needed to fight back.  As long as the residents can make positive change in the worst public housing then they have a chance to get buy in by the majority of the people who live there.  Hard work but still possible. 


1weasel
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Joined: Jan 8 2006

The residents of Atkinson Housing Coop have experience in those areas.  The coop was the former Alexandra Park public housing complex, whose tenants pioneered the conversion process.  Curiously, Rae's government blocked the tenants even though Rosario Marchase, Olivia Chow and Tony Ianno supported the coop conversion.  When the government changed the group was able to get the go ahead from the new housing minister.

http://www.atkinsonhousingcoop.com/


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Co-operatives ARE social housing.

I'm very wary of stories like the original one. I doubt people with the same economic, social and often racial strikes against them live quieter, more peaceful lives in substandard private housing - usually dreadful slums. I have been a member of a tenants' association for many years, and the worst examples of crackhouse-infested, dangerous buildings were private, not public housing (or any kind of social housing) with landlords who were at least negligent and at worst in cahoots with criminal gangs.

These stories are often pretexts for privatising public housing in areas which have become desirable to real-estate speculators.

However, there is a lot to do to ensure empowerment and a safe environment for tenants who only want peace and quiet, and often a safe and pleasant place to bring up their kids.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

lagatta wrote:

Co-operatives ARE social housing.

I agree and they stand in contrast to public housing which is not.  


Red Tory Tea Girl
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Joined: Feb 15 2010

Aristotleded24 wrote:

My housing strategy would be to create some sort of public agency, be it a fund, Crown Corporation or whatever, to enable tenants in public housing and rental properties to buy their buildings and do exactly that. Takes both the government bureaucracy and real estate speculators out of the housing business.

 

Exactly, juicing the supply of entry-level housing, instead of letting development cartels artificially inflate the price of land and housing stock, will increase affordability for everyone.


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Red Tory Tea Girl, not everyone will ever be able to own their own dwelling, and 'juicing' could result in a sub-prime mortgage crisis as in the US. 


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

lagatta wrote:

Red Tory Tea Girl, not everyone will ever be able to own their own dwelling, and 'juicing' could result in a sub-prime mortgage crisis as in the US. 

That is the difference between coops and private housing.  I own my home but I can't sell it or borrow money on it. I can take part in the governance of the complex I own.  I never have to move unless my neighbours collectively kick me out.  If I leave for any reason I get back my Share money minus the cost of a new paint job and any repairs.  The next person who joins my community as an owner has to pay the share price.  By the way it is less than most landlords want for damage deposits or whatever they are called.

I know lots of people in the coop movement who would love to step up to teach new groups how to set up working coop models. No speculation, no reward for living here except the reward of living in community and that to me is priceless.

Give us the juice.  Make available capital money to move forward to build now.  


lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

Yes, I also belong to a housing co-op; we collectively own the buildings but each member is a tenant of the co-op.

I agree that co-ops are the best solution for people whose only major problem is lack of money for a mortgage; they also build community and improve properties. However it is not true that all people in social housing have the capacity to take part in co-op operations. All the tenants at the buildings that became the co-op were allowed to stay; in most cases this is fine but there are a couple of people struggling with mental health issues who really aren't capable of working with other people.

Social housing requires a variety of models depending on the clientele. I can think of two schemes in my neighbourhood, for people with mental health problems (there is some supervision, help with their budgets etc.) and another for young single mums. In more central neighbourhoods there are also rooming-house projects where former itinerants have a small studio, also with some help/supervision, voluntary self-help groups such as NA, AA, groups for psychiatric survivors etc.

Some senior people in social housing, although they are perfectly capable of living autonomously, no longer have the energy to take part in a lot of meetings and collective tasks and are happier in an HLM for seniors.

And as predicted, not long after the Globe story, Rob Ford wants to sell off Toronto public housing to make up a deficit - no surprise, on the backs of poor people, some of whom have a variety of problems. This is very cruel, no surprise from that bully.


WilderMore
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Joined: Dec 1 2009
lagatta wrote:

there are a couple of people struggling with mental health issues who really aren't capable of working with other people.

That sounds suspiciously like blame-the-victim. Maybe the fortunate ones who "can work with others" should make a special effort to reach out to those who have life challenges.

lagatta
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Joined: Apr 17 2002

I'm not blaming anyone. I am simply stating that a co-op is NOT the best housing solution for each and every low-income person. Mental health issues are only an example.This has nothing to do with victim-blaming but finding appropriate solutions.

As for our co-op, I assure you that such a special effort has been made and continues to be made. The people involved have not been expelled or shunned.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

lagatta wrote:

I'm not blaming anyone. I am simply stating that a co-op is NOT the best housing solution for each and every low-income person. Mental health issues are only an example.This has nothing to do with victim-blaming but finding appropriate solutions.

As for our co-op, I assure you that such a special effort has been made and continues to be made. The people involved have not been expelled or shunned.

Our coop has a number of people who clearly demonstrate mental health issues.  That is of course the norm for any town house complex in the city. I think that housing and services are distinct needs that can be coordinated but are separate.  As a long time believer and advocate for inclusion I am very wary of any trend to developing ghettos for people with disabilities.  

I've served on the board of my coop and have been involved in achieving accommodation for many members for various reasons.  Our participation is by unit so in many units while one member of the family may be incapable other family members have useful skills to offer.  

The conversion of ghettos into coop housing is a tricky business that as I noted up thread will be difficult.  I am trying to remain positive since I know there are examples of success stories out there.  

Quote:

Source: International Co-operative Alliance News, No. 5/6, 1995.

 

 

Definition
A co-operative is an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise.

 

Values
Co-operatives are based on the values of self-help, self-responsibility, democracy, equality, equity and solidarity. In the tradition of their founders,co-operative members believe in the ethical values of honesty, openness, social responsibility and caring for others.

 

Principles
The co-operative principles are guidelines by which co-operatives put their values into practice.

1st Principle: Voluntary and Open Membership
Co-operatives are voluntary organizations, open to all persons able to use their services and willing to accept the responsibilities of membership, without gender, social, racial, political or religious discrimination.

2nd Principle: Democratic Member Control
Co-operatives are democratic organizations controlled by their members, who actively participate in setting their policies and making decisions. Men and women serving as elected representatives are accountable to the membership. In primary co-operatives members have equal voting rights (one member, one vote) and co-operatives at other levels are also organized in a democratic manner.

3rd Principle: Member Economic Participation
Members contribute equitably to, and democratically control, the capital of their co-operative. At least part of that capital is usually the common property of the co-operative. Members usually receive limited compensation, if any, on capital subscribed as a condition of membership. Members allocate surpluses for any or all of the following purposes: developing their co-operative, possibly by setting up reserves, part of which at least would be indivisible; benefiting members in proportion to their transactions with the co-operative; and supporting other activities approved by the membership.

4th Principle: Autonomy and Independence
Co-operatives are autonomous, self-help organizations controlled by their members. If they enter to agreements with other organizations, including governments, or raise capital from external sources, they do so on terms that ensure democratic control by their members and maintain their co-operative autonomy.

5th Principle: Education, Training and Information
Co-operatives provide education and training for their members, elected representatives, managers, and employees so they can contribute effectively to the development of their co-operatives. They inform the general public – particularly young people and opinion leaders – about the nature and benefits of co-operation.

6th Principle: Co-operation among Co-operatives
Co-operatives serve their members most effectively and strengthen the co-operative movement by working together through local, national, regional and international structures.

7th Principle: Concern for Community
Co-operatives work for the sustainable development of their communities through policies approved by their members.

 


WilderMore
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Joined: Dec 1 2009
lagatta wrote:

I'm not blaming anyone. I am simply stating that a co-op is NOT the best housing solution for each and every low-income person. Mental health issues are only an example.This has nothing to do with victim-blaming but finding appropriate solutions.

As for our co-op, I assure you that such a special effort has been made and continues to be made. The people involved have not been expelled or shunned.

I don't wish it to seem as if I'm picking on you personnaly. The "appropriate solutions" moniker has hugely negative historical overtones. People with life challenges have the right to live wherever they wish, even in co-op housing, and sending them somewhere else isn't in anyone's best interests.

shartal@rogers.com
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Joined: Mar 14 2011

The last post underestimates the scope of the problem.  Everyone has a right to be safe in their housing; including safe from other tenants or neighbors.  This means that neighbors who party to  3 or 4 AM;  who host  parties of either the drug trade and /or prostitution or who have guests who get very drunk or high,  urinated in the public spaces and frighten other tenants  make other tenants feel unsafe. Richer people live in buildings that have door-men or other forms of on-site security.    “Appropriate  solutions”  are workable when will the individuals involved have  reasonable control of their  behavior including their impulse control. However some individuals do not have the ability to consistently control their behavior with other people. Coming home blitz drunk and vomiting in the public space is a good example. If it occurs rarely most of us will put up with neighborly blitz behavior but if it occurs once or twice a week it can be very disturbing.

 

 This example is not a blame the victim question. everyone; including people with addictions, have a right to live in safety.  However  living in society also means not freaking out your neighbors.  Some of us need  help to mediate the ordinary conflicts of everyday living.  The  denser the housing complex the more complicated every day balancing becomes.  Ultimately part of the problem lies with the attitude that  forgets that everyone has the right to be safe where they live and that it is unethical to ask public housing tenants to tolerate the kind of  threatening to violent behavior that private market tenants  to not tolerate.  while everyone has a right to housing no one person has a right consistently behave in ways that frighten or put others at risk.

 

 One of the serious questions on society needs to acknowledge is  the public spaces of the housing neighborhood are shared spaces and sharing space requires  some degree of modification of our individual desires.  finding those limits is often difficult.  Even in cases as simple as  off leash dog walking  there are legitimate  conflicts over space use.  These questions become more intense in multiunit buildings.

 

 I do not believe that one-size-fits-all.    however  we  find the limits we can live with if we don't actually recognize and articulate the scope of the problems. 

 


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

shartal@rogers.com wrote:

 One of the serious questions on society needs to acknowledge is  the public spaces of the housing neighborhood are shared spaces and sharing space requires  some degree of modification of our individual desires.  finding those limits is often difficult.  Even in cases as simple as  off leash dog walking  there are legitimate  conflicts over space use.  These questions become more intense in multiunit buildings.

That is why the coop movements commitment to democracy is so important.  We have rules.  Every single one of which was circulated and discussed and passed by the general membership.  If you breach certain of the rules you will be thrown off the island.  However even if you have broken major rules you still get an appeal to the membership itself from any executive decision to terminate a membership.

I have seen two such cases in my decade living here.  Both times the membership voted to give the members one more chance.  In one case the person is still living here and a valued member of the community in the other their good behaviour was short lived and they moved out when the termination process was started a second time. 

I know many Canadians have this idea that democracy is voting every four years to elect overseers however a well run coop is a true democracy.  The elected Board studies issues that arise and then it brings a number of possible solutions to a meeting to discuss.  Then the Board in our coop in its next meeting drafts a policy that reflects what the general consensus of the meeting seemed to be.  Then a Resolution is brought back to the meeting for debate and voting.  

My coop's members have adopted this as part of its core values, "is a community that embraces the diversity of our membership.  We are supportive and respectful of our neighbours, and keep an eye out for each other.  We socialize, interact, and take responsibility for our community."


jas
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Joined: Jun 6 2005

Northern Shoveler wrote:

That is why the coop movements commitment to democracy is so important.  We have rules.  Every single one of which was circulated and discussed and passed by the general membership.  If you breach certain of the rules you will be thrown off the island.  However even if you have broken major rules you still get an appeal to the membership itself from any executive decision to terminate a membership.

How is this different from the situation Lagatta was describing? If, for whatever reason, you can't play by the rules, you are probably not a suitable candidate for the co-op model of democratic group self-governance.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

jas wrote:

Northern Shoveler wrote:

That is why the coop movements commitment to democracy is so important.  We have rules.  Every single one of which was circulated and discussed and passed by the general membership.  If you breach certain of the rules you will be thrown off the island.  However even if you have broken major rules you still get an appeal to the membership itself from any executive decision to terminate a membership.

How is this different from the situation Lagatta was describing? If, for whatever reason, you can't play by the rules, you are probably not a suitable candidate for the co-op model of democratic group self-governance.

Sorry I gave you the impression I disagreed with Lagatta. I agree totally that not all people are suitable for living in a coop. It actually takes commitment or the coop becomes a tenancy relationship despite what it seems to be on paper. 

However a diverse community is also what makes for a strong coop.  I think that people with mental health issues are all around us, sometimes even when I look in the mirror.  Antisocial people do not belong in coops not because they may or may not have mental health issues but because they are antisocial.  The two things often coexist but it is the behaviour that a community needs to respond to.   A community telling someone where the lines are sometimes helps to modify behaviour. Again that applies to both people who are temporarily healthy and those with current mental health issues.

Quote:

 1 in 5 Canadians will experience a mental illness during their lifetime. • 3% or nearly 1 million Canadians live with a severe and persistent mental illness. • 4,000 Canadians per year will end their life through suicide. • Mental illness is the second leading cause of hospital admission among those 20-44 years of age. • The economic burden attributed to mental disorders in Canada is significant: moderate estimates

suggest $4.7 billion in direct costs, and an additional $3.2 billion in indirect costs. • The World Health Organization estimates that by 2020 depression will be the leading cause

of disability in developed countries such as Canada. • Only one in five children in need of mental health services receives care. • Families report being stretched to the limit and unable to cope. • Large numbers of people with mental illness are living on the streets.

 


shartal@rogers.com
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Joined: Mar 14 2011

The problem is not “antisocial people”.    The problem is lack of supports.  The last post is a good example of the sophisticated “blame the victim” thinking that labels people antisocial  because they are unable to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.  People who live with serious long-term disabilities that result in different forms of cognitive and behavioral impairments are expected to pull themselves together and do it on their own.  We  punish people for not being able to be  "ordinary" when they live with  uncomfortable disabilities; including concurrent disorders of mental health and addictions.  The point is that self governance   and situational  accommodation  or “ behavior agreements " do not address the need for long-term social work, mental health, harm reduction and community supports. it is profoundly disrespectful to brand people antisocial because our community of the ordinary expects them to  maintain stable relationships without long-term support.

 We  should not gloss over how hard it is to live with these disabilities. At the same time supporting people with “uncomfortable disabilities” cannot be reduced to being nice to them  in the lobby of the building. If inclusive communities is  something we believe is important then we need to grapple with how we  include  uncomfortable people.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

shartal@rogers.com wrote:

The problem is not “antisocial people”.    The problem is lack of supports.  The last post is a good example of the sophisticated “blame the victim” thinking that labels people antisocial  because they are unable to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.  

I agree with your view that the problem is lack of supports.

As for your second sentence I am barred by policy from responding as I would like to. I will however say FOOD.  It is your choice.

Imagine if I and my neighbours without training and no knowledge were to try to solve complex and ongoing problems of our neighbours.  How fucking stupid would that be.  No body gave our coop boards magic wands and admitting that some people are not suitable to live in them is realistic. Long-term social work, mental health, harm reduction and community supports are all necesary. I nor few of my fellow coop neighbours are trained to provide any of those serivce.  The ones that are do it for a living and I am not sure how they would like to be responsible in their off time for providing those same services. 

Anyways did I say FOOD.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

dp


shartal@rogers.com
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Joined: Mar 14 2011

Please do not miss read the post. The point is not to ask neighbours to be support workers but to ask all of us to acknowledge how hard the questions are and how different forms of housing providers can help people link up with supports.


Rebecca West
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

You can't ghettoize a group of people, suck any vestige of hope from their lives by controlling every aspect of their lives (this is essentially what the social welfare system does - sure we'll give you a pittance to live on and a roof, however leaky, over your head, but never EVER forget that we control your life).  Introducing a new set of rules - like creating a co-op - isn't the solution.  Neither is sending in more overworked burnt-out social workers or police who'd rather be keeping panhandlers out of Rosedale than work with low-income people in a community setting.  Besides, you can't get cooperation from people you can't protect.

The social welfare system, as it currently exists, promotes multi-generational poverty that only a few of the most robust can escape.  What people need is control over their lives.  They want to make independent decisions without fear of having their income yanked, losing their housing, or having their children taken into custody. 

A community liaison officer - ideally someone who lives in the community who has received some training in advocacy and community work - can act as a buffer between the system and the people it claims to serve.  This person or persons would advocate, upon request, on behalf of tenants in conflict with the law or with the social welfare system.  They would also be a source of information on programs and services that are available.  They could organize ESL classes or conversation circles for new Canadians, parenting workshops, health and nutrition classes, or simply help people navigate their way through the roadblocks of bureaucracy that can daunt even the most savvy.  For a young single parent wishing to return to school, get a GED or attend a college or university, the search for assistance and resources to meet their goals can introduce additional life stresses, and someone who can help them through the process would increase the success for those who have educational goals.

Most importantly, a community liaison officer could teach people to be self-advocating to the best of their abilities, people who will, in turn, help their neighbours in the same way.  Not everyone is a leader, not everyone has the health or ability to take on such work, but they should have these resources available to them should they so choose to take advantage.  Restoration of dignity, self-determination and independence, for those who need it, goes a long way towards changing lives and improving community standards of living.


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

A community liaison worker sounds like a great idea.  


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