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The USA Manufactured the Arab Spring

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Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

But then again they tend to turn their backs on people like Libby Davies when presenting motions in the House calling for a real investigation into shady dealings surrounding 9/11. 

They must blush a little when voluntarily defending team false flagellum gladiolas the way they do every now and then, and the same hawks on the right they claim to be at odds with over Palestinian issues. Nay it was pious Muslims who did the deed. lol!


Tommy_Paine
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I think we tend to look back at a string of events and try to post hoc ascribe some kind of master plan.  I don't think that's what happened at all, it's very much the same as what the British used to call "bungling through."

Dulles, Ike and Churhill probably thought it was a great idea to stymie democracy in Iran in the early 50's, and never bothered to give thought to who they were setting up as opposition-- fundamentalist religious leaders stepped into the vacuum.   And the U.S. was very much asleep at the switch when their buddy the Shaw was overthrown by those leaders-- giving a victory to those fundamentalists. 

The error was hugely compounded when it seemed like a good idea at the time to support the various factions in Afghanistan fighting against the Soviet occupation.   The unintended end result being that it gave the fundies yet another victory, and cemented the idea that the only thing that works for Arab independance was fundamentalist religion.  Hey.  Nothing succeeds like success.

And our eventual withdrawl from Afghanistan will be seen as yet another victory for religious fundamentalists.  Or at least, it will be spun that way in the Middle East.

All of these things seemed like good ideas at the time, but did not follow some "blue print".

I think the U.S. would be more than happy to still have Mubarak in Egypt, but decided to get out in front of the democracy parade once they sensed the inevitable, as Noah Scape pointed out.   Cut above the Carter administration, at least, which backed the Shaw far beyond the point of no return. 

And all of this was touched off in Tunis, due in no small part to the increase in the price of food.  Which increased because the U.S. thought it a jolly good idea to deregulate food speculation on Wall Street. 

Is the Arab Spring some master plan by Goldman Sachs, or their partner in de-regulation, Slick Willie Clinton?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Tommy_Paine wrote:


I think we tend to look back at a string of events and try to post hoc ascribe some kind of master plan.  I don't think that's what happened at all, it's very much the same as what the British used to call "bungling through."

Dulles, Ike and Churhill probably thought it was a great idea to stymie democracy in Iran in the early 50's, and never bothered to give thought to who they were setting up as opposition-- fundamentalist religious leaders stepped into the vacuum.   And the U.S. was very much asleep at the switch when their buddy the Shaw was overthrown by those leaders-- giving a victory to those fundamentalists.  

That's right. Instead, US, British and Israeli hawks, Saudi princes, and the military dictatorship post 1947 gave intense consideration to who they did not want running various countries, ie. communists, socialists, pan Arab nationalists etc. They've dealt with the devil, from Hitler and Pol Pot to Saddam Hussein and Elvis bin Laden, in order to prevent socialism from scoring goals around the world.

Tommy_Paine wrote:
The error was hugely compounded when it seemed like a good idea at the time to support the various factions in Afghanistan fighting against the Soviet occupation.   The unintended end result being that it gave the fundies yet another victory, and cemented the idea that the only thing that works for Arab independance was fundamentalist religion.  Hey.  Nothing succeeds like success.

I think they simply hated socialism, communism, Pan-Arab Nationalism that much that they never committed any errors as far as they were concerned. Fascists have had nightmares about reds under their beds for a long time. Fascism was born of the French Revolution as a political and militant opposition to socialism. 

Tommy_Paine wrote:
And our eventual withdrawl from Afghanistan will be seen as yet another victory for religious fundamentalists.  Or at least, it will be spun that way in the Middle East.

All of these things seemed like good ideas at the time, but did not follow some "blue print".

They would withdraw if they could leave in place a brutal right wing fundamentalist regime, say, one led by a pro-Mujahideen/Northern Alliance coalition partnered with Taliban mullahs and corrupted by the ISI and CIA funded by taxpayers in several countries to finance the bribes. And they want paying these stooges - they don't come cheap.

Tommy_Paine wrote:
I think the U.S. would be more than happy to still have Mubarak in Egypt, but decided to get out in front of the democracy parade once they sensed the inevitable, as Noah Scape pointed out.   Cut above the Carter administration, at least, which backed the Shaw far beyond the point of no return.  

There were powerful Wall Street bankers lobbying Carter to grant their former stooge political refuge in America. Wall Street made a lot of money handling Iran's enormous oil wealth siphoned out of the country by the Shah. And the banksters knew that to allow the former dictator to live in the lap of luxury and disgrace in exile in Morocco or any of the other shitholes would be to send the wrong message to western-backed dictators - that their enablers would abandon them so easily in times of need. 

Buth the whole world has one thing in common, and it's common desire for social democracy. The name of the game for hawks and superrich is to prevent it from happening as always. They have and will continue dealing with the devil in waging war on democracy. It's what they do. Because if this coincidence theory is true, the one that says the CIA and ISI, Mossad, MI6 etc are intel agencies run by thousands of Elmer Fudds and Barney Fifle-alikes, then why did those two ficitious TV characters never make it as billionaires the same as the heads of and friends of right wing extremism here in the west? Surely if they are too stupid to run intel and black ops, then they surely can't benefit monetarily or politically. Barney and Elmer were just too dumb to fall on riches and dynastic political rule accidentally or by wild coincidence.

It's time to consider that the mistakes are not really mistakes at all. - Naomi Klein


notaradical
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Joined: May 17 2011

Tommy_Paine wrote:


I think we tend to look back at a string of events and try to post hoc ascribe some kind of master plan.  I don't think that's what happened at all, it's very much the same as what the British used to call "bungling through."

Dulles, Ike and Churhill probably thought it was a great idea to stymie democracy in Iran in the early 50's, and never bothered to give thought to who they were setting up as opposition-- fundamentalist religious leaders stepped into the vacuum.   And the U.S. was very much asleep at the switch when their buddy the Shaw was overthrown by those leaders-- giving a victory to those fundamentalists. 

The error was hugely compounded when it seemed like a good idea at the time to support the various factions in Afghanistan fighting against the Soviet occupation.   The unintended end result being that it gave the fundies yet another victory, and cemented the idea that the only thing that works for Arab independance was fundamentalist religion.  Hey.  Nothing succeeds like success.

And our eventual withdrawl from Afghanistan will be seen as yet another victory for religious fundamentalists.  Or at least, it will be spun that way in the Middle East.

All of these things seemed like good ideas at the time, but did not follow some "blue print".

I think the U.S. would be more than happy to still have Mubarak in Egypt, but decided to get out in front of the democracy parade once they sensed the inevitable, as Noah Scape pointed out.   Cut above the Carter administration, at least, which backed the Shaw far beyond the point of no return. 

And all of this was touched off in Tunis, due in no small part to the increase in the price of food.  Which increased because the U.S. thought it a jolly good idea to deregulate food speculation on Wall Street. 

Is the Arab Spring some master plan by Goldman Sachs, or their partner in de-regulation, Slick Willie Clinton?

 

A destabilized Muslim world is the best thing the US administration could ever have hoped for. It means endless war and endless profiteering for the military-industrial complex. Their victims are largely states that can't fend off the American military. Things were different when it was them against the Soviets and the Soviets had a comparable number of soldiers and nukes. Who wants to risk mutual annihilation? Now though, the US administration can prance across the globe, picking out unlucky nations one after another and justifying war under pretext of combating terrorism. It doesn't happen in every case. Obviously, you can't be at war with the whole world, regardless of what the US administration thinks of itself. When it's more profitable, stage a revolution, mop up the real revolutionaries, and install your despot. When the price is right, claim that this or that country is harbouring Islamic fundamentalists and bomb them kingdom come.


CMOT Dibbler
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Joined: May 17 2003
"It's time to consider that the mistakes are not really mistakes at all. - Naomi Klein" Hold on a second. Are you trying to show that Kline believes the Arab Spring to be an American plot?

Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001

What the U.S. wants, what the financial totalitarians want, and what business wants is stability.  They manage shit that happens as it happens, with an eye to maintaining or promoting something predictable.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

CMOT Dibbler wrote:
"It's time to consider that the mistakes are not really mistakes at all. - Naomi Klein" Hold on a second. Are you trying to show that Kline believes that the Arab Spring is a American plot?
 

No she was talking about something called disaster capitalism when she wrote that. Think opportunistic jackals taking advantage of a bad situation which they themselves contributed to.

They did it in the former Yugoslavia when that country fell apart after following the neoliberal voodoo for too long.

And even though Libya owns the best human development index of all African countries, the west's economic hit team was pressuring Qadaffi to get with their plan. He was doing exactly that according to the IMF in a news article that praised Qadaffi up and down just a few months prior to start of the "Arab Spring".


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

 

Experts Fear Israeli Design To Balkanise Arab States

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=56140

"...The western campaign against Libya wasn't undertaken to protect human rights or foster democracy, it was launched with the aim of breaking Libya up politically so as to prevent the unification of three revolutionary Arab states - Egypt, Libya and Tunisia - which together might pose a threat to Israeli regional dominance...

The primary objective is to weaken the Arab states of North Africa, which, if they ever united, would represent a potential threat to Israel and western interests. Libya's significant oil wealth, of course, constitutes a secondary reason for the intervention."


Veeravel
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Joined: May 12 2011

Gene Sharp's work that was spread around the Arab spring was a work on strategy so I think his anti-communist leanings are irrelevant in the use of the material (it can be used by fascists, liberals, communists or what not) but its probably certain that his anti-communism/anti-sovietism probably fueled him, much like Clauswitz and Thucydides had been fueled by certain ideological motives but the application of their work itself is up for grabs.

What we must ask ourselves (and what the Arab peoples will decide in the end) is whether democratic gains along with some unsavoury/free-market elements is better than what was there before. We must also be always willing to critically examine "anti-imperialist" leaders, not just "pro-USA" leaders in the third world as well. I don't think the black and white approach of the right is any better when its inverted by the Left. Nationalim and Anti-imperialism are great things for the third world's fight against colonialism of old and colonialism of new but its also a great way for regimes to divert people from criticism, as Fanon has written even back in 1961.


Slumberjack
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I think Tommy is right.  Profit is the master plan.  Everything else is just disaster management, maintenance, and enforcement of the capitalist order of things, such that it is.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Yes it's all about profit and nothing more. Hawks are little more than Elmer Fudds and Barney Fifes embedded in US government for decades at a time, like Rumsfeld and Cheney have been since the 1970s. There are just some things the vicious empire would not stoop to doing in order to crook and rob other countries of their oil and other mineral wealth. Mass murder, economic warfare and false flag terrorism are fairly serious charges. Surely the Gladio Gang are above all that. The Soviets, on the other hand? Well, we know all about them and could rhyme off a list of things they were guilty of without prompting.


500_Apples
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Joined: Jun 3 2006

The people who ignore the role of power-relations and imperialism in analyzing third world developments are the real enablers of imperialism and white supremacy.

Of course the CIA had a hand in the Arab spring, the only question is how witting that hand was.


clandestiny
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Joined: Sep 13 2004

The USSR was innocent of so much of what it's been accused of. Am I the only one who read 'Siber' , Farley Mowat's 1972 report on travels through the USSR? The Soviets built ICE DAMS up north, saving a fortune by replacing concrete with ice- and that's something we never heard about. The USSR OPENED the NorthEAst passage in the 30's to 700 vessels a year-we still haven't opened the NW passsge! The USSR defeated fascism in WW2, w/out barely any help from so called 'allies'; it deployed deliverable nukes by 1950, preventing fascism from using the bomb since then! The USSR put satelites/men into space, BEFORE the grunting pig west! Gensec Stalin SIGNED every death warrant carried out during his time in office; he never became wealthy (reagan left WHouse with $32 million in his 'blind trust') and his indifference to his family is tragic IF one sees him as a desperate revolutionary trying to keep USSR alive despite overwhelming fascist oppo ...blah blah blah!

Fact is, one day humanity gonna wake up, and realize the disaster that destroying the USSR (thus the revolution) was to us, to the future.The pig lies about everything. The fascasti murdered Trotsky (through agents in Comintern) and FDR (who respected the USSR, unlike truman) They went on to murder JFK, Malcolm X, Hammershald, Patrice Lumumba, Chile's Allende, Pope JohnPaul1st, John Lennon, Frank Church, Mel Carnahan, Paul Wellstone, Hunter Thompson and the hundred of NYPD/FD officers on 911. And they murdered Joe Stalin's name- made him like hitler or bush; spending billions to falsify the record! Someday, if humanity survives, maybe Joseph Stalin will take his place among the true heroes of the human race. He was certainly more saintly then JP2nd, or that idiot regan, or fricking churchill, or cecil rhodes, or george junyer ...imo


Merowe
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

500_Apples wrote:

The people who ignore the role of power-relations and imperialism in analyzing third world developments are the real enablers of imperialism and white supremacy.

Of course the CIA had a hand in the Arab spring, the only question is how witting that hand was.

Yup. That works for me!


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Everything We're Doing Now Was Planned BEFORE 9/11

Quote:
We've been told that 9/11 changed everything.

Is it true?...

The G8 Map of Washington's Greater Middle East extends right to the borders of China and Russia and West to Morocco February

Quote:
Washington's NED in a larger agenda

If we make a list of the countries in the region which are undergoing mass-based protest movements since the Tunisian and Egyptian events and overlay them onto a map, we find an almost perfect convergence between the protest countries today and the original map of the Washington Greater Middle East Project that was first unveiled during the George W. Bush Presidency after 2001.

Washington's NED has been quietly engaged in preparing a wave of regime destabilizations across North Africa and the Middle East since the 2001-2003 US military invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. The list of where the NED is active is revealing. Its website lists Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Syria, Yemen and Sudan as well, interestingly, as Israel. Coincidentally these countries are almost all today subject to "spontaneous" popular regime-change uprisings.

Israel, too? The hawks did similar things throughout the cold war era in Europe. They shit disturbed and funded fascist uprisings, and then backed off when they needed military support from NATO. They might be throwing Israelis to the wolves similarly after years worth of arming to the eye teeth Israel's enemies. A CIA report of a few years ago stated that Israel will become an unviable nation state in so many years. The writing is on the wall for Israel, and so the NATO gang have been planning to move into other countries for years(before 9/11) and probably abandoning Israelis to their own devices. They were never friends of Israel in the first place.


Noah_Scape
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History points to "a manufactured Arab Spring" -

World War II was enabled by America helping Germany build up it's military as a force against perceived USSR expansion;

The Cold War was not what it seemed to be, or at least "was not necessary" - it was another American ploy to "create an enemy to keep fear alive and the military budgets

The Vietnam war was made possible only by the idea that Communist China was threatening expansion [not!], and again, creating an enemy to keep the endless wars going ;

The Korean war was over before it began, except that then Gen MacArthur decided to march across the 38th parallel;

South America - 1980s era CIA stomping out socialism by assassinating socialist leaders etc. [and using illegal drug money to arm and fund the militias that did the killing]

So sure, America is up to something other than their stated purpose in Libya. Endless war, Imperialism, etc. - Here is an article saying "oil is the reason" > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25200


al-Qa'bong
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Joined: Feb 27 2003

Before the whirring of black helicopter blades completely drowns out any other sound here; while they clearly have a lot to gain by undermining Syria and Libya, could someone explain why the Illuminati would want to betray their loyal Egyptian, Bahrainian, Yemeni and Tunisian puppets, and thereby make their Israeli client state very nervous?

 


Catchfire
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Whoa, what the...when I first saw this thread title I thought it was either a) referring to the impetus for the uprisings (i.e. Western hegemony) or b) was satirical. Instead, it is offering some seedy, half-baked "evidence" meant to undercut the pan-Arab popular movement. "Thinking critically" doesn't mean ignoring the incredible evidence which shows an entire group of people refusing to accept the yokes of their dictators. Posts like the OP are based on racist, orientalist assumptions, and have no place on babble. Notaradical, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself in the future, thanks.

Thank you to CMOT for your incredulity and to BdC, Lachine Scot, and al-Q for your incredulous ridicule. The CIA. Cripes. What will Obama think of next?


Noah_Scape
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Satirical Manufacturing 'R Us!! But Catchfiremod, nobody here is "trying to undercut the pan-Arab popular movement". Its great the they are ousting their tyranical leaders.

Some of us here are just saying that America gets involved for it's own reasons, which are different than the upriser's reasons. Do you doubt that, Catchfire? Or is it as the MSM says - that NATO is just there to lend a helping hand, motivated only by a sense of duty, but without any expectations afterwards?

Furthermore, with apologies for usurping [I love that word!], you are not really asking Notaradical to "keep his conspiracy theories to himself", are you? Be they "Whacko", "TinFoilHatBrigade" or "Logical Radical", Conspiracy Theories 'R Us too.

 


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Yes, there is a pan-Arab popular movement and people refusing to accept the yoke of dictators. There is also Great Gaming, elite planning, and ongoing attempts to 'steer' the aforementioned movements. And there are indeed conspiracies involved as well as the CIA. The above intervention, its manner (or lack of), characterization and claims made, leaves much to be desired incidentally.


CMOT Dibbler
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If these uprisings were happening in for an example, Bavaria, would activists here be saying that the Bavarians are being steered by intelligence agencies outside their borders, or would we simply be happy for those people living in northern Germany and congratulate them on a job well done?

Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

 Apparently junior toadies to the two old line colonial administrative parties want to attack the NDP at every turn for not being left enough.

But when it comes to actual left wing global politics and cold war baloney, they turn around and apologize all over the place for team gladio with delirious drivel about the CIA and US Military being run by Elmer Fudd and Barney Fife clones and who just so happen to be awarded black budgets every year that run in the tens of billions of dollars to, apparently, carry our Elmer Fudd black ops that never amount to anything. Because as we know, Elmer Fudd is this innocent character who makes a lot of mistakes but never cashes in on them. Why? Because they are legit Elmer Fudd clones who just wanna do some private enterprising along the way without intentionally murdering or, pulling a Gleiwitz incident(apparently hawks never learned anything from their friends during or after the war, the NAZIS) torturing anybody along the way. Too funny. A real knee-slapper.

babble it's, a social forum for those hostile to the new official opposition party and mildly anti-imperialists. A public for-comments watering hole where closet lunatic right wing fringeists congregate.

And God bless Eisenhimey and JF Dulles, because how else would we refer to "The Middle East"  using the imperialists' own terms?


NDPP
Online
Joined: Dec 27 2008

re: #51 CMOT

Western interest, involvement and influence should be assumed in any and every movement of any consequence anywhere, including Bavaria. Not very long ago, some here were still insisting up and down that Spring had spontaneously come to Libya too. My point is that these things are frequently complex mixtures and competing interests of which  CIA involvement or elite planning is not necessarily 'conspiracy theory' 'half baked' or 'racist'.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Don't mind them, NDPP. They don't appreciate us bashing their cold and colder war heroes very much at all. You can sense the bad vibes. For some of us there is no such thing as fascism. It's just normal every day goings on as far as they are concerned.

God bless the CIA and Gladio Gangsters Inc.

And down with the NDP!!

Is it just me or is it very Liberal/Tory in this thread?

Hostility watch continues...


CMOT Dibbler
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I'm gome, I can't take it anymore.

Catchfire
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NDPP, the OP is a paradigmatic example of conspiracy theory: supernatural intent; paper-thin evidence; broad, totalitarian consequences and the usual appeal to critical thinking etc against all common sense and proof. Thus, it is easy to conclude that it is indeed racist, imperialist and half baked. Of course, the incompetent American empire has its hands in all sorts of pots worldwide, but that is not the contention of the OP, the main force of which is classic orientalist myths and tropes.

NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

@ Fidelio

I'm delighted that the NDP is getting out of the 'left' business. They'll go farther this way, you'll seeWink


CMOT Dibbler
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Catch could you toss me your e mail adress via pm.

Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Catchfire wrote:

Whoa, what the...when I first saw this thread title I thought it was either a) referring to the impetus for the uprisings (i.e. Western hegemony) or b) was satirical. Instead, it is offering some seedy, half-baked "evidence" meant to undercut the pan-Arab popular movement. "Thinking critically" doesn't mean ignoring the incredible evidence which shows an entire group of people refusing to accept the yokes of their dictators. Posts like the OP are based on racist, orientalist assumptions, and have no place on babble. Notaradical, keep your conspiracy theories to yourself in the future, thanks.

OTPOR and CANVAS are probably funded by the US Government according to independent investigative journalist William Engdahl. And the video shows people in Ukraine acknowledging Gene Sharp's step by step book on regime change. The orange revolutionaries used Sharp's methods to help reign in the corrupt Yushenko government friendly to the west.

OTPOR's Popovic says they were behind the Rose revolution in Georgia that has given them the corrupt and militant Sakashvilli government that attacked civilians in S. Ossetia without provocation.

They were behind the tulip revolution in Khyrgyzstan, and a denim revolution in Belarus.

OTPOR and CANVAS are surely funded by the U.S. Government. They've pulled this crap in Venezuela and Cuba before without using OTPOR's formulaic regime change strategy. 

Is babble now a watering hole for closet right wingers and advocates for globalization of neoliberal economic fundamentalism?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Catchfire wrote:
NDPP, the OP is a paradigmatic example of conspiracy theory: supernatural intent; paper-thin evidence; broad, totalitarian consequences and the usual appeal to critical thinking etc against all common sense and proof. Thus, it is easy to conclude that it is indeed racist, imperialist and half baked. Of course, the incompetent American empire has its hands in all sorts of pots worldwide, but that is not the contention of the OP, the main force of which is classic orientalist myths and tropes.
 

The CIA is a long time racist, imperialist tool of the west. You can't get any more racist than the NAZI sympathizing CIA once headed by the likes of William Colby, Allen Dulles, and George  H.W. Bush.

Why should we believe that secretive intel agency is any more democratically minded today? Regime change and torture and political assassinations are their specialties since 1947. Why should we trust them more than U.S. dissident William Engdahl and his sources for this story?


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