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I'm thankful for the few forum members in this thread who have voiced reason and not, as I now reiterate for the umpteenth time, simply projected their well-wishing onto the events in North Africa/Middle East. I am truly, truly appreciative.
@Catchfire
I didn't realize moderators were given free reign to insult regular Babblers. I have shown the utmost civility amidst overt hostility, and have not once insulted anyone's intelligence. I have not disseminated "racist, orientalist" opinions. You may want to double-check your use of the word "orientalist". I don't think it jives. I am only guilty of throwing a fork into the gears of the massive machine that is status quo. I do not discredit the Arab people. I recognize that they carried out an unpredented show of solidarity (revolution, if you will). I question the underpinnings of its creation and its probable manipulation from the shadows. To the contrary, I believe some participants in this conversation are ignoring the "incredible evidence" that is free for the taking, should one have the audacity to partake. I fail to understand what is offensive about suggesting that there is an element of intrigue.
Through my digging, I continually redefine my perspective on this issue. I don't see this as a weakness, but I foresee others attacking the argument on this basis. I now believe that "liberal" American think tanks played a major role in the manipulations, presumably in pursuit of financial gain, which I will get into below. Constant is my belief that there were forces that sought to subvert the potential energy of a popular uprising, right from the very onset (or sooner) of the revolutions.
I encourage everyone who challenges the official record not to solely rely on historical parallels, as I was wont to do. They may contain points of relevance but they are usually dismissed regardless of their viability.
- - - - -
An article in the New York Times links the International Center on Nonviolent Conflict to the training of the revolutionary leaders in the April 6 movement.
Gene Sharp had a protegee, Peter Ackerman, who became a multi-millionaire and went on to found the ICNC. From an article in the Washington Post:
SourceWatch, a corporate watchdog wiki, has this to say about the ICNC:
And more from the Wikipedia page:
Green Left, an independent Australian news source, continues:
Another article by the same author exposes the many links between the ICNC and the American neoconservative establishment:
In response to claims that the ICNC trained Egyptian activists, Jack Duvall, president of the institution, had this to say:
That is as close an admission of complicity as it gets in diplomatic parlance. Note that they invite participants to their program at the Fletcher School, a widely known CIA training apparatus.
In this video from Al Jazeera, Mohammed Adel, a key organizer of the Egyptian uprising, talks of his relationship to Otpor, which is directly supported by CANVAS and ICNC, both of which I outlined in an earlier post:
- - - - -
I believe the evidence is there to illustrate a link between the Egyptian revolutionary movement and OTPOR/CANVAS/ICNC. That the revolutionaries were unwitting parties is open to debate. I believe they were. There is also considerable debate on the intentions of the ICNC, which, if one approaches this with any degree of skepticism, inevitably leads to a reconsideration of the official record of the Egyptian uprising (and possibly the entire Arab Spring).
I see nothing in this thread that is beyond the ability of Babblers to handle themselves - agree or disagree. Neither the contention that 'there are forces that seek to blunt the effects of the people's struggles' nor a perusal of the supporting materials, which include Louis Proyect, Wikileaks cables from Cairo to Washington, Pepe Escobar and Hugo Chavez, would warrant posters being maligned as half-baked racists or conspiracy theorists and told to keep their 'conspiracy theories' to themselves. The intervention was heavyhanded, insulting and obviously chilling of any further discussion. Please take more care next time.
Whatever political situation unfolds in Egypt it will more than likely be dirty political squabbles and unstable coalitions as Egyptians venture into the dicey world of electoral democracy and dollar democracy. They will not have a modern day strong man Nasser who seized the wealth of greedy and corrupt elites and nationalised state assets in a bygone era. Not anytime soon.
What the west has planned for the Arab countries does not resemble democracy. What's planned in advance is globalization of an ideology that has caused former Soviet and Latin American countries to descend into economic chaos and political turmoil, and massive indebtedness to a massively corrupt western banking system run by a financial elite. Their goal is democracy prevention. Yes they are very much involved in this "Arab Spring". They knew the writing was on the wall for their political stooges and so are now acting to ensure a smooth transition to corruption by inserting into any new governments their own neoliberal stooges by dollar democracy and by hook and crook anyway they know how. Egyptians and Tunisians and Yemenis should have been protesting their local U.S. embassies at the same time they were protesting against the corrupt stooges.
This thread is an insult to the memory of Mohamed Bouazizi and the thousands of other Arabs who martyred themselves to free their people.
Yes, because it's obvious that we're saying Arabian people would not rebel like this without prompting from the CIA. Shame on us. And how racist of us to suggest that an imperialist tool of the U.S. Military dictatorship since 1947 would stoop so low as to try to control the outcomes of these peoples rebellions against capitalist globalization by simply changing the channel to western style electoral democracy aka installing more corrupt stooges by way of dollar democracy. How dare we.
I would discourage you from pandering to peoples' emotions. I haven't denied the untold suffering experienced by the revolutionaries. In fact I haven't denied much at all of the events as they transpired.
It is becoming a recurring theme in this discussion for detractors to inject histrionics to fan the flames. I was hesitant to point this out at first but this is getting ridiculous.
We should consider starting an Imperialism 101 thread for people born after 1989 or so.
And for those who were born previously and still don't understand what's going on, well, what else can we do? They are hard cases.
I was born 2 years before the Wall fell. Until 4 or 5 months ago, I wasn't even 100% up to speed on the mechanics of our parliamentary system. I credit this website and a host of other progressive places for my education.
re: #64
Only if your grotesque distortion of it upthread were true that it intends
"the argument that the turbanned horde cannot conceive of such western ideas as freedom from despotism without the friendly guidance of gentle whitefolk."
I certainly don't subscribe to such views, nor do I see that advanced here.
Otpor and Canvas etc is the new gladio in action. The clenched fist symbol was used in all the CIA's colour revolutions.
Engdahl: US-Israel rift deepest ever as Arab Spring spreads chaos YouTube May 21
This destabilization effort was planned since 2002-03. It's being steered by Washington and London and designed to expand the imperialists' "Middle East" borders in the direction of China and Russia and creating a larger neoliberalized and globalized free market zone for the corporatocracy and mainly banksters to plunder and extract oil and other mineral wealth and enslave whole nations in debt servitude to a deeply corrupt western financial system. They want to use economic warfare against China and Russia and Asian countries in general.
Same old same-old warmed over cold war leftovers.
CIA Coup-College
And for a different perspective see this video.
Et Tu al-Q? This is a tad overwrought in my estimation, even in comparison with the 'shove thy conspiracy theory up thine rectum' intervention upthread.
I believe there's far more circumstantial tidbits of substantiation here and there for western meddling in affairs of this nature than substantiation for some of the remarks at #48. Sounds to me like this was all notaradical was trying to get at. A little more differentiation between a drive by analysis of the OP, and intent of the poster might have avoided the other unpleasantness which followed.
There are significant inspirational elements in any situation where people refuse to do what they're told by corporate hegemonists and their puppet henchmen. Is is too far out in left field to suggest that reactionaries never cease doing what they do best, which is to continuously react in their own interests as situations develop, where loyalty to ones flunky on the ground takes a back seat to retaining control over such impromptu affairs before events get completely carried away?
It would be a useful exercise to look to the assortment of intrigues behind the Jordanian protests this year, and the extent of the regime's comparative willingness to quickly ante up with a few fig leaf reforms. Certainly the US wouldn't wish instability here, just as it didn't provide them with much in the way of amusement in the Egyptian, Yemeni, or Tunisian contexts. If instability did threaten to overflow into the Jordanian streets, beyond the ability of the security forces to arrest without creating a bloodbath as the Syrians are doing, then I'd be inclined to believe in advance that the most likely wager going forward for the West would be revealed precisely as it is now, in the manner of a few mollifying tweaks to the systemic political and economic oppression, or talking head changes that might meet with the approval of the masses, or, as an entirely last ditch exercise in legitimacy, a new talking head in charge of everything, preferably a trusted representative from the army or other security services with a certain amount of fealty owed to outside interests, as in Egypt, Yemen and Tunisia. They'll never willingly allow these people to determine their own destiny just like that. There's simply too much at stake in regional resource extraction projects alone, before we'd even get to the variety of other political factors.
Someone upthread called them "Arabian" people. It would be hard to come up with a better Orientalist term than that. Obviously, only the CIA is capable of pulling these Arabians away from their hookahs and out of their hareems by whispering "democracy" and "revolution" to them.
Well, the CIA certainly can be mistaken for a SPECTRE-like world governmental organization. You might have just said 'lets be careful in navigating around people's legitimate aspirations and bodies laying in the street,' because just as the entire region is not monolithic with its varying contexts and impetus, there's also a huge difference between purposeful intent, misapprehension, and superficiality. Surely the intent isn't to usher people through the exits by recommending they take their racist extracts elsewhere, and just leave it at that.
That unfortunate description wasn't helpful, but nor is it helpful to stitch things together and stretch it out beyond all recognition in this manner so that it neatly fits around the lambasting of an otherwise thoughful poster.
People are caught up in whether ongoing U.S. efforts at destabilization are directly responsible for the "Arab Spring", which is an interesting exercise, but nowhere near as important as what has definitely been manufactured: The western perception of the Arab Spring, through the mainstream corporate media.
Thanks to the presentation of this phenomenon as a spontaneous people's uprising against malevolent dictators, the citizens of the west passively accept military intervention by expansionist corporate empire builders.
...or to put it more simply: it's not them, it's us. We're the most manipulated in this situation, and thus the most responsible.
@Catchfire
After reading the first few words of this post, I thought you were referring to your own trumpeting of previous detractors' comments. I should have known better. Guess I'll go back to watching my X-Files and taping up my Bigfoot posters. It is interesting to observe your choice of words to describe my arguments. "Supernatural", "racist", and "orientalist" are all brushstrokes used to paint me as some sort of raving loon. I want to address these insults.
Supernatural - I point to tangible connections made by established sources, agents of the Imperium they may be. Occult does not necessarily follow intrigue.
Racist - I don't entertain any ideas that there is some deficiency in the peoples of that region that somehow prevents them from aspiring to a better life and true democracy. That would be truly racist. All peoples are created equal. Period. I suppose if you want to dig, you'll eventually hit water. The way this discussion is going, I should be banned by then.
Orientalist - Edward Said defined orientalism as a "subtle and persistent Eurocentric prejudice against Arabo-Islamic peoples and their culture." As a member of a visible minority, I'm intimately attuned to those frequencies. Is it orientalist/racist to suggest that the masses have been manipulated? Do you call someone stupid for buying into a pyramid scheme?
The connection is there. Call it shoddy journalism, whatever that means. I make no pretenses - I did not write this stuff. Neither am I the first person to question the official narrative. If Al Jazeera, the Washington Post, and the New York Times aren't enough "official" sources to establish said link, then I "officially" concede. Someone will probably contend that these sources are the tools of the Imperium used to confuse and mislead. I ask then what evidence will suffice? We have the leaders of the Egyptian revolution confessing to their connections on video. Video!
I think it's time for this argument to go on the offensive. If anyone can demonstrate with considerable evidence that the April 6 Movement, with ample funding and training from ICNC/CANVAS/OTPOR, was NOT instrumental to the Egyptian revolutions, I will adopt that version.
That was one of the first red flags I encountered, but it can be dismissed as purely circumstantial. Many organizations adopt symbols of other organizations. I found it more helpful to explore the substantive links between the Egyptian uprising and destabilizing agents. Things like training and funding, for example.
So the theory is that after decades of supporting dictatorships in the Middle East, CIA has now decided to provide support to people of the region to topple them? Good. That's at least one step forward from toppling democratic governments and replacing them with dictatorships.
The only thing supernatural about these "Arab" Spring threads are the usual coincidence theorists' and their apologetics for a racist and imperialist tool of U.S. Government's meddling in John Foster Dulles' "The Middle East". It's a truly breathtaking sight for a left wing social forum claiming to be anti-imperialist in purpose. It's disgraceful.
Yes, the coincidence theory on this one says that the American CIA and its intelligence allies in Europe only ever foment violent coups and then prop-up brutal dictators for decades afterwards. And look how well that's worked for them. Apparently the CIA and friends are too stupid and won't be attempting to install anymore dictators through corruption and bribery and supporting both the Gadaffis of this world and their political opposition at the same time.
Where else in the world have powerful elitists been buying both the governments and political "opposition" for the last several decades? Coincidence theorists do have a point here, because we know of no other country in the world where war parties numbered one and two are owned by rich people, bankers and a few thousand military contractors. It's too ridiculous to imagine that model for the corruption of Rome to be exported to the "Middle East".
I mean, that's just too weird for an agency with annual budgets in excess of what Ontario spends on health care.
Helpful hint: Since its creation in 1947, the CIA hasn't been spending all that dough on health care services for desperately poor people in JF Dulles' "Middle East".
Well if Paul B. McCarthy of the Warshington based National Endowment for Democracy(a CIA front as are USAid, IRI and IDI) is anyone to go by, he admits now that his group funded Otpor in 1990s Serbia. Serbia and regime change are synonymous in case we've forgotten the glorious nineties when a wonderful Clinton administration and al-Qaeda were like that in Bosnia and Macedonia according to various sources including the US Republican Senate Committee. Milosevic was one of their's for a while, too, and who swallowed the neoliberal kool aid, like Qadaffi, Mubarak, Ali, Mugabe, Mandela's ANC etc did, before western banksters and their hirelings in government turned on Slobo.
So does this mean that the NED, USAid and even New York Times writers are ubernatural?
"Game Over"? Yeah rrright.
Because the US Military dictatorship has not been very transparent or accountable to the public since 1947 and in dire need of American style glasnost themselves does not mean that they are innocent of ongoing meddling in John Foster Dulles' "Middle East". I would tend to believe the opposite is true if anything. The torture is nothing new, and neither is the CIA's long-time agenda for regime change and political assassinations. And there is fairly clear evidence for ongoing meddling in "The Middle East". They tell on themselves eventually.
And your reaction is "Good".
My reaction is "On what planet?"
No credible explanation is offered as to why the CIA and the myriad other instruments of imperialism would suddenly want to have their compliant western-friendly dictatorships in the Middle East toppled like dominoes by popular revolutions. The reason why no such credible explanation has been offered is that there is none.
The very, very last thing the imperialists want in the Arab countries is social instability and popular uprising. Those are the things that threaten imperialism the most. This is why they have moved in quickly to control and defuse the potentially explosive prospect of a popular revolution in Libya by placing themselves and their loyal compradors at the head of the opposition forces. They are happy to have Qaddafi ousted only so long as they can be assured that those who replace him will continue to comply with the western capitalist agenda.
The CIA et al. deal in coups, assassinations, and intrigues when they want regime change - not mass popular uprisings. Mass revolutions are too unpredictable and hard to control, unless your agents are securely installed in leading positions. And because a handful of Arabs have read Gene Sharp's pamphlets, it doesn't mean that we can conclude that the whole Arab Spring was Sharp's idea.
There is clear evidence of pro-capitalist "democracy" advocates having influence with some people in some countries - like Ukraine, Serbia, and other countries that were not securely within the imperialist orbit - for the purpose of bringing them "freedom" in the form of neoliberal market economies and western capital investment. But to suggest, as the thread title does, that the Arab Spring was "manufactured" by the USA betrays a shocking disregard of the actual facts, the historical context, the geopolitics of the region, and the methods and motivations of western imperialism.
Perhaps even worse, it also precludes any form of genuine solidarity with the uprisings on the part of leftists and "progressives" in the rest of the world, which alone is enough to qualify as despicable.
They were no longer viable stooges. Everyone and their dog knows this is true. The "Middle East" uprisings have been all over the news channels for a few months. This is not conspiracy theory or anything to do with the ubernatural. And that the CIA and their EU friends are not involved by some ubernatural quirk of history is what's not credible. You have no proof that the CIA has taken up boy scouting and Guiding. Let's not laugh very hard over this bit of nonsense either.
William Engdahl explains that US-Israeli relations are at an all-time low since 1948 because of the perceived abandonment of Israel and Israeli-friendly dictatorships in Cairo etc. There was a plan in place since 2003 according to Engdahl and his sources for expansion of a greater "Middle East" toward Russia and China's direction, as racist and imperialist as that migtht sound. Not really, it's just more globalization of the corruption and theft. It's what imperialists do.
Well, which is it? Chicken or egg?
Were the western-friendly Arab dictatorships no longer viable stooges because of the uprisings (as you intimate above), or were the uprisings engineered by the west because the western-friendly Arab dictatorships were no longer viable (as the OP seems to suggest)?