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Still not clear, was one of the persons in the dressing room changing a ftm trans or a mtf trans?
I see you as saying said person was a ftm trans.
Had you been born a xx and socialized as an xx we would not be having this insulting conversation. You would get it. *As per the excellent article from VRR that you linked to and I quoted above.
You can't even bother to gender me correctly. Of course you're clear. You couldn't be any more clear if you tried. You want me to degender him and myself by extension and it isn't happening.
There ought to be some little rivulet of shame running down your back that tells you that making women effigies for the men you actually want to oppose is wrong. It's really disheartening, but again, I'm not surprised, just shocked.
I just wish you could be properly honest, instead of hiding some really messed up stuff behind a thin veneer of respectability. I talk about how we are made subject by people who, instead of respecting our agency, consider these restrictions a compromise with their inevitable goal of morally mandating us out of existence. I talk about forced sterilizations, and the incredible amount of disrespect that people have had to endure to express themselves.
And all you do is call my karotype, which you don't even know, which likely is like Julia Child's XY, but again, you don't know, an original sin. I don't know how you can just casually write off countless, and deliberately uncounted, millions of women like that... I'm numb.
Also, trans is not a noun.
You can no more know what it is like to be xy born and raised, than I would know what it is like to be a xx born and raised.
BTW I am not writing off anyone, again you put words in my mouth. nor am I hiding behind anything.
Anyhow, I sincerely hope you have a good life as that is what all humans deserve.
But that does not mean I have to tolerate someone calling a fantastic organization like VRR a hate mongering organization. In fact, I feel those who are trying to destroy it are actually trying to destroy women who could and will be helped by said org. Got no use for anyone who does try to, no matter the gender.
I sincerely doubt that you have any good will for me, since your response to my first of several attempts to have you use respectful language, as opposed to 'a trans', was to make a kissy face at me. Somehow I imagine you understand how loaded that is. You strike me as someone who, in the last seven years, has probably learned what is oppressive language towards trans womyn. That you do not believe that is in any way bad, is a different matter.
These people or enough of these people as to prevent resistance from the rest, clearly hate trans women, don't think they're women, refuse to acknowledge the possibility that our socialization isn't as uncomplicated as their cis experience was, and thus the man saying, 'it's a boy' irrevocably marked me, in their eyes as irredeemable. And when you say you think they should sue me for defamation for saying so, you are implying a standard of proof that indicates that they are not inciting hatred against trans women. Apparently you don't hate us, we just have no right to exist on our own terms.
I'm not trying to destroy VRR. I don't want them shut down, but I do want them to stop applying their personal prejudices based on thirty-five year old writings that never involved trans women but rather treated us as political objects.
I refuse to be their effigy and I refuse to be yours. You have no idea what it's like... you would have hated it. You know how I know? Your BSTc is one of those things that, unless you want to count DES, which was before my time is not something that men can touch.
I somehow have an inlking you don't know what it's like to be gendered as neither. You don't know what it's like to be sexually assaulted in a room of two-hundred people, as a teenager to shout into a live microphone, "stop touching my breasts," (I have had gynomastica since I was eleven) and have the young men laugh, and the young women, people I was taught should never be so violated, wrote it off as grabass... and the teachers say nothing either. You ever want someone to hit you so you could at least feel like a human being instead of a thing? But apparently THIS is original sin. They are unalterably men in your eyes. And you would, with this policy let them and I crawl into a hole and die after they are raped, rather than be a voice for these women. And you refuse to call them women. You can't even manage to compound the word like most misogynists and this is misogyny.
You can call that a lot of things, but you cannot plausibly call it an absence of hatred.
Good grief, yes I can. Wild suppositions and putting words in my mouth, yet again.
As for your "exist on our own terms", it actually means that you want us born xx to exist on YOUR terms, not our own. Apparently our terms for ourselves, do not mean a thing to you.
It is also quite apparent you, along with those in Vancouver like Kimberly Nixon, want to destroy VRR. If it won't be what YOU want it to be, you want it gone, be damned with how many 10's of thousands of women it has saved and served and the many more it will in the future.
Your bullying and attacking me by calling me a misogynist, of all damn things, and putting words in my mouth, along with trying to destroy VRR, makes it is quite apparent that your socialization was fully male patriarchial.
Moreover, trying to talk to me as if I do not know what it is to be objectified into a thing, nor about being raped, is another clear indication that you do not have any feminist inklings at all.
Have no idea what BSTc is. Nor DES.
In no way shape or form does my existence as a woman invalidate yours. I know you guys want to think its some political programme or, but really, if that were the case they wouldn't have found a pre-patriarchal grave containing a trans woman.
I can guaranteee you that when she showed up to volunteer, Kimberly Nixon was acting in good faith. One of the reasons I know is she later found a position as a shelter counsellor. Yes, I do want them to stop discriminating against trans women. But do you mean I'm going to put them in the position, like Catholic Social Services in the United States of deciding whether to keep discriminating against marginalized womyn or continuing operations? Yes. I hope they'll come to the realization that what their doing is wrong. I have no problem with VRR existing as it does otherwise. I'd feel the same way about a whites only shelter.
Well, I'm using your terminology here for everything but me. You refuse to even gender me correctly. I have been reduced to a (insert reductionist acronym) trans. Who's bullying whom?
So because I don't agree with your goals that makes my socialization... I'm sorry, but that's degendering. If I fell all over myself and said of course I understand why you'd never want to be in the same room as us abberant freaks, and genuflected then you'd... well no, the people you unflinchingly support have, since the late 70s had a programme that is designed to deny trans women their agency, to the point that they provided cover for Ronald Reagan's government denying women like me healthcare... you'd be surprised what they can cut as trans related if they try.
But it's good that you can decide how I lived my life over a few forum posts... that's reassuring. But you see, I know exactly how you judge every trans woman's socialization, because, again, if we're assertive, that's male socialization, if we're docile, that's internalizing patriarchal gender roles about womyn, and the list goes on. That presumed Y, that doesn't always exist, is, to your mind, a scarlet letter.
When you hate women because they're not your kind of women, to the point of saying they should be denied support when they are attacked and in crisis, that is misogynist.
You miss the important modifiers in my post. I'm referring to the absolute lack of any support. Of even a batted eyelash. I'm not dismissing what happens to you, I'm calling attention to where you can go afterwards, and where your friends will tell me to go. You think people are taught to be cruel to you? Live some time getting genedered as neither. This is the intersection of transphobia and misogyny. It's incredible cruelty to be attacked. And then it adds insult to injury to have your sisters refuse to even let you in the door. Knowing you're on your own makes it worse.
Well, it's the internet. Consider this the open book portion of your exam in how to treat trans women with a modicum of respect.
remind, this is incredibly insulting, and violates babble policy. If you are unable to engage with RTTG respectfully, then please step away from this conversation.
In fact, since this discussion has diverged from the original premise, both of you could step away for a bit, or at least bring the conversation back to the OP. Thanks.
I've been trying to relate things back to Sweden regularly, and shall continue to do so. But, to continueand get back to the metrics... from Wikipedia:
Sweden has a higher hourly unexplained pay gap than Spain and Belgum... and Italy oddly enough.As well as the same hourly gap as France.
That's conditional on many different factors. For instance, when traveling through China, I did find that on the rare occasion some places discriminated in my favour, such as waving entrance fees. On the other hand, some street vendors would assume I was rich and so jack up prices on me, meaning I always had to bargain even more than the average local.
This however did not apply to all whites, but only those dressed in a more "European" or "American" fashion. If dressed in a more "Turkik" fashion, a white person would be thought of as a Uighur, in which case he'd likely be discriminated against stereotyped as a thief (I remember one case where one child embarrassed her mother as we were speaking since we were discussing cultural diversity and the young kindergarten-aged daughter started talking about how Uighurs were thieves, even though she had no idea what a Uighur was, though she did know the word). I remember meeting a Uighur in Shanghai who pretended to be a foreigner precisely to avoid this type of stereotyping.
Yet in Xinjiang, the rules were quite different. I was easily accepted as a local by local whites, though they often became angry upon realising I spoke Chinese but not Uighur until I explained I was not a local (though some still remained angry even after that). On the other hand, the local Han Chinese there never discriminated in my favour in the least. In fact, if anything, they often viewed me with suspicion at first site until realising I was not a local, and even then were sometimes wary of me.
Also in the past an Ethiopian friend had had to face much pressure from her local Ethiopian community for having announced she was going to marry a white man.
So while you're statement may often be true, it's by no means a universal truth and will certainly be wrong in many cases.
Another instance of Swedish misogyny:
http://janefae.wordpress.com/2012/04/24/news-feed-swedish-asylum-failure...