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The "S" Word: A Short History of an American Tradition...Socialism
shhh...The beer store [ontario]...........co-operative
[sorry was a co-op]
She's just all over the place!
Ontario Liberals - Andrea Horwath is the new Mike Harris
Horwath says one thing in public, another thing in "NDP backrooms"
LOL I HEARD THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO5-hM6xKt
LOL
Like Horwath, I personally use both social democrat/democratic socialist because for me it makes no difference. But in public I prefer social democrat, as idiots like the person who made that video will imply that I'm some sort of lenin/trotsky/stalin-esque revoulutionary.
When was the last time you saw the governing party attack the 3rd place party so viciously and so obsessively. Oh yeah when that governing party was on the point of crashing and burning. Liberal polling must be far more bleak than anyone has suspected to this point. I know the Liberals are done in rural Ontario, but it must be getting awful for the Liberals in urban and suburban Ontario too.
To that sentence, you could have added, "to the point of ignoring the main opposition party."
I do see what the liberals are trying to do. They are trying to discourage NDP voters from going to the polls by claiming they have gone right and then trying to claim them as against the enviroment in order for voters to split them with the greens. Perhaps it was a mistake not to release their full platform, I'm sure the attack ads will roll in before Horwath's announcements.
Every time the CCF/NDP looks like it's about to take off, some groups collaborate with the Liberals to attack the CCF/NDP from the left. In the 1940s when the CCF was rising high, the Communists and Liberals co-operated to attack the NDP under the Liberal Labour Party banner. The Liberals tried to turn the 1988 election into a free trade referendum, and when Mulroney was elected many on the left blamed the NDP for the Liberal failure. And just last decade, we had folks like Jim Stanford, Jim Laxer, and Buzz Hargrove, who have consistently claimed that the NDP is not far enough left, attack the NDP because the Liberals lost elections. The co-operation between the Liberals and the Greens (in particular the stand-down agreement between Dion and May in 2008) adds a contemporary environmental twist to this dynamic, that in addition to being not far enough to the left, the NDP is also weak on the environment. I remembered this history, and suddenly the recent formation of the "Socialist" Party of Ontario made sense to me, considering how badly the Ontario Liberals are about to collapse.
The liberals simply fear that the NDP will take their place as a dominant party. But this was not done through a move to the centre historically, nor was it done by moving to the left. It was done by saying that a more progressive society is possible and by rallying voters through focusing on issues.
Horwath is smart by not proposing something new but simply what has been done by progressive goverments in other provinces.
Regarding the waffle, its no big deal. There has always been a waffle in the NDP, but alas they pay their membership fees eh? They've tried to turn the party further left since the dawn of time, and not through debate backed up with proven examples of their policies put through agressive tactics.I don't think they've ever heard of something that was a failed approach to gaining votes. Old theories about building a better and more egalitarian world should be revised and based on what has been done and what has proven to be sucessful in places like Scandinavia. A better world will be built but some simply have to realize it won't happen tomorrow or the day after.
how difficult is it to include in your version of socialism a simple statement that 'we do not accept the human rights abuses done in the name of socialism' ?
Its a very important clarification to many Ontarians, Canadians, and others around the world.
Though to be thorough about it, we should probably also have a simple statement that we do not accept the human rights abuses done in the name of all unions, soviets, and republics, eh?
I have no problem with that, though frankly I think the human rights abuses done in the name of my house, my food and water, my toys and my coffee are something I can have a bit more affect on.
As for the crimes committed years ago by people who belonged to a group with a certain word in its name (same word those national socialists used too) I agree they were tragic. On the other hand I attach a bit more importance to the things that actually sustain my lifestyle, and about which I can do something, than I do to saying mea culpa about philosophies which have the barest thread connecting them, if that.
I think someone mentioned the CPC MLs. WHo knows... maybe they'll bite.
everyone is able to clarify, in word and action, opposition to human rights abuses.
groups associated with a party using the name of a well-known abuser have a responsibility to speak out, to clarify distinctions or to stop association.
any who choose to allow themselves to be associated with Leninists, or Marxists, either in sponsorship or membership lists, or in joint causes, have a responsibility to clarify publicly they do not accept Lenin's human rights abuses or Marx's reported acceptance of hostage shooting. Similarly, members of any group have a responsibility to speak out against human rights abuses.
The groups which sponsor rabble, and all babblers, are in association with some who promote Leninism, therefore everyone at babble/rabble has a responsibility to help educate Leninists and eachother.
Silence regarding Lenin's crimes leads to reaction; those who see attempts to sweep historic crimes under the rug move in the opposite direction.
In Canada the divide has become more pronounced and it's unnecessary- destructive to a progressive shift.
The left needs to be very clear about specific policy, and specific rejection of human rights abuses- past, present or future- of any of its associations.
thanks, your ignorance about Lenin and Marxism is encyclopedic.
There are plenty of other places on the internet where displaying one's hatred and ignorance are welcomed.
Kindly find them, and stop polluting this place with your anticommunist rants.
Thanks.
I doubt if he says the same thing about the Conservative or Liberal brands. Given that they were in power throughout the brutal British Empire the parties with those names should ensure everyone understands that they are not going to engage in ethnic cleansing, genoicide and other crimes against humanity.
If 'communism' means community, people caring for eachother and the Earth without the abuses of capital and without human rights abuses, then dialogue could be possible.
I do know enough about Lenin and Marx to know Lenin and Trotsky headed years of human rights abuses conducted by the Soviet secret police, and Marx condoned the shooting of sixty hostages by the Paris Commune. I've written notes at babble in previous threads, also critiquing Stalin, and the human rights abuses of others in other parties.
If babblers were truthful, dialogue could be possible.
I've left babble, and other forums, previously, because in several years i havent' seen any leftists here clarify the serious disconnect, nor in other circles, except for Jack Layton once when he was named as a 'socialist' and he smiled and said 'progressive'. It was a help. More is needed.
The best solution is to avoid mudslinging which appears often here, theres another way to question an ideology. If communists wish to tell me about the governing communist party in Cyprus and its accomplishments, then fill me in. The anarchists/libertarian socialists here should tell me about the sandistas's economic accomplishments, or those of anarchist catalonia. Show me the unbiased economic and social data, then I will consider your perspective.
We lose people like Remind and get right wing assholes coming out our yin yangs.
Thanks where is your reply to the Conservative and Liberal atrocities? Why this fixation on one ideology when the other ideology has an even bloodier history. The Indian occupation by Britain killed way more people than any communist regime. You want dialogue then answer for our Conservative and Liberal parties that bear the names of that murderous, genocidal, racist regime.
"Show me the unbiased economic and social data, then I will consider your perspective." Part of the social data is mass murder, torture, and rape. It cannot be swept under the rug. Is babble a rug? Babble, and rabble, are supported by unions and other groups, and individuals who choose to be associated with Leninists. Lenin was responsible for mass murder, torture and rape. A simple 'we do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of socialism' would help.
Similarly those who call themselves Conservatives, Liberals, anarchists, or whatever other ideology, can simply say, 'we do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of...'. Mudslinging doesn't need to be the focus. A simple statement clears the air somewhat and allows space to consider input. Otherwise listeners/readers are blocked.
The new federal NDP Socialist Caucus website, in the 'About' section or its Manifesto, ought to state simply that it does not accept human rights abuses done in the name of socialism. Otherwise the language sounds like the language of Soviets, while they were massacring, torturing, raping, starving and deporting millions of people. I couldn't read all the specific subheadings because in the introductory sections a rejection of human rights abuses done in the name of socialism was missing.
I have tried to assume the best of modern 'communists' and 'socialists', in whichever groups they currently inhabit, however now I do not believe it's enough. Polarizations amongst people, in Ontario, in Canada, around the world, are becoming more extreme. Aggressive or reactionary behaviour could be reduced if individuals, groups, unions, parties, could simply say they reject human rights abuses done in the name of affiliates in the past.
It really drains me, having to keep coming back here to say this. That energy, along with the energies of many others, could be released for good work if the blockage noted is removed.
I keep hoping in good hope, only to be repeatedly disappointed, even after two and a half years of writing here. please say and write, as groups and individuals, that you do not accept human rights abuses done in the name of [your] ideology in the past.
thanks.
Please feel free to go to MSM web sites and demand that Rae and Harper denounce British imperialism before they can speak with any legitimacy. We got your message here so maybe its time to go after the worst human rights abusers not the second rate leftist ones.
Given that the ideology they represent is currently murdering people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Palestine etc etc I would think they should be the focus of your concerns. Why go after the historic abusers when you have current abuse on an unprecedented scale.
Shit. I simply had no idea what kind of effect we were having on you. My God! Why didn't you say something sooner.
For the record:
I hope my words will bring some comfort and peace to your haggard life.
Fear not - of course I will understand if we do not see you here for a while. Wounds such as yours take time to heal. I understand perfectly.
Godspeed, you precious, delicate soul.
you can't simply blame others shortcomings and deny your own.
here, an example:
I've quoted the Bible before, however I do not agree with the human rights abuses done in the name of Christianity, past or present.
comparing degrees of mass murder, torture etc. is ridiculous. denial of historic abuses is to ignore abuses is to perpetuate injustice. So all your fine words of 'social justice' blah blah are questionable, eroded, undermined, revealing a gaping disconnect, sending folks to reactionary oblivion. I came back here to say i was going to disconnect again from participating in the campaigns of associated groups and unions as well. A good example of reaction. However you people here, and rabble sponsors and writers and related networks would be responsible in part for reaction, for non-participation, because of your stubborn, irrational, refusal to simply say 'we do not accept historic human rights abuses done in the name of socialism.'.
Patronizing emotional babying is not required. Nor twisted versions throwing back "[your]" ideology.
All groups, unions, parties, individuals, etc. linked in any way with socialist groups or others need to say, " we do not accept human rights abuses done in the past or present by 'socialists' or capitalists."
Talking points from Fox News much?
There is no ideology in history that didn't have casualties associated with it.
Oh, so you're getting sick and tired of it, too? Glad to hear that.
Try to imagine my disappointment.
Thanks you went in to post 50 to rewrite it and didn't note the edit. so what did you change?
Now you have rewritten post # 53.
just so you know it is not really appropriate to change your posts. The preferred method is to clarify in a subsequent post. That way other peoples posts don't sound off the wall when they have replied to things that no longer appear in the thread.
i got rid of 'please understand if i don't show up for a while'.
then i changed 'socialist, capitalist, or other' to 'socialist or capitalist' because its not clear what 'other' might be- either people have control over capital or they don't.
anyway, i came back here to report, as you probably heard anyway, i'll save you the trouble of translating,
i told my mom about my dilemma, that many activist groups which do good work, often are found in the same space as Leninists, and that i was concerned the NDP didn't do well out west because it was known to harbour socialists. my mom didn't have the same angst as i did. she said that 'sometimes you have to compromise', and thought the NDP didn't do so well out west because Harper was from there. Dad thought it was because the Reform had been stronger out west before Harper. mom didn't think people cared too much about Lenin these days, while dad said, 'wait and see' before talking about it or getting all worked up.
for me it still seems like a big disconnect. it would be so much easier to deal with if those who are affiliated in any way with Leninists say they don't agree with the human rights abuses of his regime.