babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
Support rabble | Advertise with us | Contact our staff | About rabble | Log-in or Register for a new account | Corrections | Privacy policy | Newsfeeds | Mailing lists
rabble: Features | Columnists | In Cahoots | Blogs | Books | Photos | What's Up | Polls
babble: Forum Topics | Active Topics
The rpn: About the RPN | Become a podcaster
rabbleTV: Program Guide | Features | Indie Inside | Best of the net
Copyright © 2001-2013 the authors
Syndicate
It's that old lie Lieutenant Wilfred Owen wrote about before he was killed on November 4, 1918 on the Western Front:
"Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori"
Imperialist invaders of Afghanistan suffer worst day of casualties in the entire war
- CTV news
'graveyard of empires'
16 Oil Tank trucks destined for Afghanistan were destroyed in Pakistan. It seems that NATO is having a hard time keeping its gas guzzling army supplied with fuel. The occupiers will be kicked out it is merely a matter of when.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/192703.html
Here are some things the Fawning Corporate Media (FCM) will never reveal:
1. The ("dirty") black operation that these Special Forces Navy Seals were involved in.
2. It is claimed an insurgent "RPG" rocket brought the helicopter down. But was it in fact, a shoulder-launched guided anti-aircraft missile of the insurgents or what the West calls the "Taliban," which "officially" they are not supposed to have?
Do you suppose it's time we leave Afghanistan?
Stuff happens in war... casulties is all a part of it.
Where did you hear about the SA missle? A good RPG hit would be more than enough to bring down even a Chinook.
Osama's revenge.
Do you know how many Afghans have been killed since October 9/11? After all, we are unwanted and uninvited guests waging a war against them. Do you remember the names of the Afghan perpetrators of 9/11? What great "sin" what great "evil" have the Afghans done for them to deserve what we are doing to them?
How many Canadian, American soldiers have to die before we realize and admit that they died/are dying for no good reason? We shouldn't be in Afghanistan. Our troops should have come home yesterday.
Sources. I've been "sniffing" around and I've been hearing things.
The RPG is a (relatively) low-velocity, close-range anti-armor "point and shoot" weapon.
It's likelihood to seriously damage or bring down a helicopter is not that high.
If you keep up with the number of reported helicopter (and if you are able, with those that are not released to the media) dowings reported as "crashes", there is a credibility gap: Too many helicopters are reported as "crashes" or due to mechanical failure than is to be normally expected in combat.
As much as I loathe the 'war' the West waged in Afghanistan in the last 10 years (the link between Taliban and 9/11 is tenuous at best), the fact is, once the Western forces have been driven out, that country will revert to a regime where women are treated like chattel, girls can't go to school, and most people live in fear and ignorance.
The Afghan people will not win. There are no winners in this.
@ frmrsldr: You know my position here, nothing's changed. We'll be pretty much out by 2012.
I can care less who runs Afghanistan after we leave. Just so they understand they can't allow their nation to become a base for international Islamist groups (Pakistanis included) to establish training camps so they can stage attacks outside Afghanistan. They can't allow outside groups taking advantage of their hospitality customs like bin Ladin and his guys did. If they do that they will be fine and will soon drop off the international radar.
We should see them on the National Geographic Channel not the news channel.
The Afghan Taliban government was "hosting" Al-Qaeda, the group alleged to have been behind 9/11. This is a legally insupportable claim to wage a War of Aggression against Afghanistan. Neither the Afghan government nor the Afghan military attacked or invaded the U.S.A. Contrary to what we have done to Afghanistan.
The NATO countries got dragged into the war because Bush cited the NATO Charter that initially makes the claim "An attack against one [NATO member] is considered an attack against all [NATO members]" ignoring the fact that "attack" as later defined in the NATO Charter does not cover 9/11 or other similar civilian criminal/non-military action(s) not carried out by either states, state actors or military forces.
Aside from all the destruction, loss of life and sorrow our war of choice has caused, it will have accomplished absolutely no good aside from making a huge profit for the arms industry and to justify the continued existence of the Pentagon and NATO.
(The) war(s) beg the following questions:
1. Because we may not like what goes on in other countries, do we therefore have the right to impose the kind of changes we want on Afghanistan or (another) country/countries?
2. Do we have the right to impose the changes we want through War(s) of Aggression?
3. Is War of Aggression the (only, best) way to impose the change(s) we want upon the (rest) of the world?
Alleged? Come on man give Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Ladin creadit where its due. The 9-11 attacks, despite their horror and fucked-upness were brilliant plans. Perhaps so brilliant many can't believe "they" could be smart enough to plan and execute such an operation.
Please tell your not a truther.
I disagree, but I also don't think we should have dragged the entire world into this (Iraq was the ultimate waste). Al-Qaeda, the Taliban's "guests" did attack us and we had every right to retaliate (by ourselves). I really doubt it was a surprise to the Taliban leader Mullah Omar.
So I like I said this is where we have to agree to disagree on this one.
Yeah, they have to learn that only the USA and its righteous allies are allowed to have training bases on their territory where people are taught to go to other countries and kill civilians.
Yes, M Spector, despite your sarcasm your closer to the truth than you think.
Yes, American exceptionalism is not hard to spot.
Feel free to think that way... its your opinion not mine.
The fact is that the West destroyed the only government that was secular and provided rights for women. The US funded and armed the religious fanatics because the government was socialist and seen as too close to the USSR. The Russians made the stupid mistake of invading to back this government much like the US and France did in Vietnam. The Northern Alliance were driven out by the Taliban because they were brutal murderers. The current government has a non-secular constitution imposed by the West.
I don't know what will happen when NATO and its collaborators are driven out but that is a precondition to any possibility of change for the good happening.
Im pretty sure the Northern Alliance and the Taliban are brutal murderers and the Taliban drove them out because they were not their briutal murderers
Was it "stupid" of the Russians to send military support for "the only government that was secular and provided rights for women"?
Was this really a parallel to the US and France backing right-wing despots in Vietnam against a popular leftist uprising?
From a historic perspective absolutely. They were seen as invaders and thus the socialist government lost all credibility. A foreign power intervening with troops on the ground in a civl war almost always leads to a bad outcome.
I guess it was "stupid" of people to go to Spain and fight in their civil war in defence of the legitimate government against the fascists, for the same reason.
Exactly. It was none of their business. Now if only the governments of the world
had also kept out as well
A commentator on CNN said a few hours ago it was a breach of protocol to reveal that SEALS were killed in that chopper crash - now the 'enemy' knows they'scored a success. Apparently protocol demands that the use of 'American personnel' is the accepted expression.
Nope you are again twisting what I said to score points. I was clearly talking about the Russian government sending its armed forces across the border. Please just read what I am writing and stop trying to put stupid comments into my mouth. If you want to make those comments attribute them to yourself.
The only government forces I know of in Spain were Italy and Germany. Using your twisted logic and nasty debating technique I could say you must have supported the bombing of Guernica by the Condors since you support foreign intervention. But I know you don't believe that so I will refrain.
Right on, NS. And calling oneself "socialist" doesn't really suffice to endear you to the ignorant slobs who (lo and behold) are quite capable of defending themselves. The Afghan people helped do their bit to destroy the faltering Soviet empire. They are now doing the same to the U.S. empire (just ask Standard & Poors).
Long live the struggle of the Afghan people!
Hasta la victoria, siempre!
Cold war era. There were two principals in that one. You omitted that part completely.
Ever wonder where al-CIA'da came from? They are merely Gucci Mujahideen with a made-up name, "the base". Or iow's, the CIA's expendible jihadi assets. The baloney happening in Afghanistan today and on 9/11/01 dates back 30 years, mr colder warrior. Save it for someone who doesn't know shit from shinola.
Yes indeed, 9/11 was a brilliant plan, so brilliant in fact, I believe 9/11 was an inside job just like Pearl Harbor.
I don't associate with the "Truthers." These views are my own. I have no idea whether (any of) my views are shared by "Truthers."
George W. Bush used the initial wording of the NATO Charter: "An attack against one member is an attack against all" to initially drag all the NATO countries and Australia and New Zealand into the Afghan war. The neocons who supported the Bush administration knew that the U.S.A. couldn't go it alone morally, politically, legally and (perhaps most important of all to them) financially. It is all these wars of Empire that has brought the U.S.A. to the financial state it is in today.
NATO is a military alliance that provides collective military defense - although NATO's concept of "defense" has stretched disbelief to the breaking point. 9/11 was not perpetrated by the state of Afghanistan or any other state. Nor was 9/11 perpetrated by any government, military or government actors. 9/11 was allegedly perpetrated by civillian terrorists and therefore was a (civilian) criminal act and not a military attack or act of war.
Waging war against Afghanistan is an illegal War of Aggression/war crime/crime against humanity on a number of counts:
1. The U.S.A. was not militarily invaded. When you are fighting a war against someone, as soon as you cross your own country's border and cross over the border(s) of another/other country/countries, this is not a war of defense but a war of offense or a War of Aggression.
2. To respond to a (civilian) criminal act by waging war against a country is a legally inappropriate - i.e., illegal response.
3. Regardless of who was behind 9/11, holding the government and people of Afghanistan responsible for the actions of others and waging war against them is collective punishment. Collective punishment is against the Geneva Conventions and is a war crime/crime against humanity.
4. In the 1980s, the U.S. government/military bombed and mined Managua harbor and other Nicaraguan harbors. The U.S. government justified its actions by alleging that the Nicaraguan government was harboring guerrillas/terrorists who were crossing Nicaragua's borders and committing acts of war/terror against Nicaragua's neighbors. The U.S. was defending/protecting its friends and allies (Nicaragua's neighbors) by committing acts of war against Nicaragua. In 1984, Nicaragua took its case against the U.S.A. to the International Court of Justice to sue for damages.
The International Court of Justice ruled in Nicaragua's favor. The result? The U.S.A. did what it always does when international bodies declare that the U.S.A. has violated international law. The U.S.A. simply ignored the ruling and continued/continues to do whatever it wants anyway.
When Osama Bin Laden called on the Afghan government, he was a wanted (by the U.S.) man. He took advantage of Pashtun melmastia - hospitality and nanawati - asylum. The Afghan (Taliban) government and Mullah Mohammed Omar were aware that the U.S. government believed that Bin Laden was the mastermind behind the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. Assuming that the allegations might be true, the Afghan government did fear that Bin Laden might attempt another attack against (a) U.S. target(s). Fearing that another possible attack(s) by Bin Laden might bring trouble to Afghanistan, the Afghan government granted hospitality and asylum to Bin Laden on the condition that he wouldn't do anything that would bring harm to his hosts and protectors and they attempted to carefully monitor him and his group to prevent this from happening.
According to these accounts, assuming Bin Laden was the mastermind behind 9/11, he apparently did his planning in secret and committed the 9/11 terrorist attack without the knowledge of and to the (to this day) grievous harm to his hosts and protectors.
What is your opinion about the "School of the Americas"?
How about the Pentagon/CIA training guerrilla/terrorist "Contras" both on American soil and elsewhere to wage war against the peoples of Latin American countries and propping up right-wing blowtorch and cattleprod dictatorships in these countries?
With one difference however,
the (legitimate) Afghan government asked the U.S.S.R. for assistance with the insurgency that the Pentagon/CIA was causing in Afghanistan. Thus technically, the U.S.S.R. was not an "invader."
Unlike October 7, 2001 when the U.S.A. started its illegal War of Aggression on Afghanistan.
Unlike the U.S.A. funding and supplying arms to France in the French Indochina War from 1946 to 1954 against the legitimate Hanoi government of North Vietnam and the continued involvement in the Vietnam War from 1955 to 1975.