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Tottenham Riots

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6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

M. Spector wrote:

I suppose we can count on babblers to join the chorus of condemnation of the "rioters" as vandals, thugs, and probably agents provocateurs....

Well you can certainly count on us to spin it as justification for whatever we think it means.

Even a riot has to have a single, definable purpose, after all. 

And what the hell has gotten into Billy Bragg?


Northern Shoveler
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6079_Smith_W wrote:

And what the hell has gotten into Billy Bragg?

Fame, fortune and old age.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Northern Shoveler wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

And what the hell has gotten into Billy Bragg?

Fame, fortune and old age.

Yeah, I guess we can get away with insulting old people, eh? And as for anyone with a bigger bank account than me, pass me another brick. 

And you probably know that last statement was a joke. His statement was the most sensible thing I have read so far on this thread.

 

 


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14436001     - labour mp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065 - mugging

 

Edit: full speech by labour mp who represents tottenham

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AoI4QacdyYw

 

 


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Very telling interview with journalist Darcus Howe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biJgILxGK0o&feature=player_embedded#at=248

 


Bacchus
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Ghislaine
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The Guardian has a live blog describing the scene.

 

Perhaps some of the cheerleaders here will reconsider when presented with the fact that there were people in some of the buildings that were set on fire. See the photo at the link of the woman jumping from a burning building.

 

Quote:

 

 

Jamie Boxell, who runs the Gun Tavern in Croydon, said seven police officers screamed at the middle woman to jump from her burning flat after she was left behind in the evacuation.

Mrs Boxell, aged 34 years said: "A guy broke into the building where this woman lives and set a sofa on fire with a lighter.

"This was about 8pm and we were standing on the roof of the pub watching it all. The pub and surrounding premises were evacuated but then we heard this screaming and a woman was standing at the window.

"They pulled the rugs from the shop next door to make a soft landing and there were seven officers shouting and screaming at her to jump. She did and they caught her. She then walked off, she was really shaken up.

...

Photographer Amy Weston - who took the picture of the woman jumping from a burning house in Croydon yesterday - has spoken about the scene.

She told The Guardian:

Quote I was told there were fires in the Church Street area, near Surrey Street Market.

By the time I drove towards it, I could already see the fires from my windscreen

There were six or seven people screaming and crying outside, and they looked like they lived at the flats that were burning. The flats were above small independent shops. A man in a white shirt was screaming that a girl was at the window and that she was ready to jump. He ran towards her but riot police had appeared and pulled him back, and they went to her instead.

As soon as she dropped, the crowds pushed back and there was no way to see what happened to her. I remember hearing people screaming that there were more people in the building. The crowds started getting angry with each other, with one group blaming another group for starting the fire.

[/url]

Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006

British authorities might use plastic bullets to quell rioting that has swept the city for a third night and spread to other cities, a senior London police officer says.

Such bullets are "one of the tactics" being considered, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh said Tuesday. Plastic bullets have never been used before during British disturbances.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/09/tottenham-riots.html I suppose in the past they have just used live ammunition.

6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ Caissa

Did he actually say that?

Is Northern Ireland not a part of Britain?

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/rubberplasticbullet.htm


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006

It wasn't given as a quote. I would think it's not technically a part of Britain since the official name of the UK is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland


Freedom 55
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Joined: Mar 14 2010

Ghislaine wrote:

I find it interesting that there are no women rioting?

 

Yes - fiction is interesting.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

@ Caissa

Funny that they can play with words like that to imply that this is an unprecedented step, when in fact the British invented plastic bullets and have killed people with them.

(edit)

And gotta love this quote from that CBC article you cited:

"This is the uprising of the working class. We're redistributing the wealth," said Bryn Phillips, a 28-year-old self-described anarchist, as young people emerged from the store with chocolate bars and ice cream cones.

Phillips claimed rioters were motivated by distrust of the police, and drew a link between the rage on London's street and insurgent right-wing politics in the United States.

"In America you have the Tea Party, in England you've got this," he said.

 


Freedom 55
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Unionist wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

I suppose we can count on babblers to join the chorus of condemnation of the "rioters" as vandals, thugs, and probably agents provocateurs....

Heh. I suppose we can count on M. Spector to be utterly unable to distinguish between the most oppressed and subordinated sections of modern capitalist society striking back against their overlords in the teeth of direct police suppression (UK), and a handful of masked individual provocateurs and/or assholes sabotaging a massive anti-imperialist movement under the benevolent and indifferent eyes of the police (Toronto). Quel dommage.

 

Of course, M. Spector... how could you have left out assholes?

And describing the G20 protests as "a massive anti-imperialist movement" has got to be one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard.


Freedom 55
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6079_Smith_W wrote:

And what the hell has gotten into Billy Bragg?

 

Perhaps he's disillusioned that Washington, Omaha, and Los Alamos aren't burning too.


Ghislaine
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Joined: Feb 15 2008

Let's burn London to the ground and steal cell phones!! Clearly that is the route to socialist utopia!


Bacchus
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bekayne
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Joined: Jan 23 2006

Caissa wrote:

The Socialist Workers' Party statement on the riots.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=25645

Whoever wrote this doesn't seem to realize which party was in power 13 of the last 14 years


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

Yes Blair was a failure(Iraq, rails, us puppet, enviroment, etc)  but he did have accomplishments that should be noted. Minimum wage, decreasing unemployment from the Thatcher age, massive reductions in crime, etc.

Anyways, heres Ed Miliband. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14464136


ikosmos
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That interview with Darcus Howe upthread has the following quote:

"I don't call it rioting. I call it insurrection of the people."

 

 


Ghislaine
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ikosmos wrote:

That interview with Darcus Howe upthread has the following quote:

"I don't call it rioting. I call it insurrection of the people."

 

 

Except for the people fleeing for their lives from burning buildings?


Northern Shoveler
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Ghislaine wrote:

Let's burn London to the ground and steal cell phones!! Clearly that is the route to socialist utopia!

So what do your think these young unemployed black youths with no future should do to improve their lives.  I think the most telling link was the one where a rioter explained that a couple of thousand of young people had gathered to protest peacefully a few months earlier.  They didn't even make the fucking news.  When people believe they have no avenue to be heard they then go to violence out of frustration and anger. 

Maybe if they lived in a real democracy they would have a voice but lets face it Blair's third way screwed this neighbourhood and others like it.  So electoral politics is a dead end.  Peacefully protesting is not even mentioned in the news. What does that leave?

If the UK was serious about ending the potential for violence it would stop the austerity measures and break up the right wing elites control of the media. Once they got back to having democratic institutions they might find the people are not willing and eager to burn down the city.  Besides these youth were probably just celebrating Guy Fawkes day early.

Quote:

LONDON -- As political and social protests grip the Middle East, are growing in Europe and a riot exploded in north London this weekend, here's a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?

"Yes," said the young man. "You wouldn't be talking to me now if we didn't riot, would you?"

The TV reporter from Britain's ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. "Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard,  more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you."

Eavesdropping from among the onlookers, I looked around. A dozen TV crews and newspaper reporters interviewing the young men everywhere.

The truth is that discontent has been simmering among Britain's urban poor for years, and few have paid attention. Social activists say one out of two children in Tottenham live in poverty. It's one of the poorest areas of Britain. Britain's worst riots in decades took place here in 1985. A policeman was hacked to death. After these riots, the same young man pointed out, "They built us a swimming pool."

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot#.Tj83Lj9oMJR.twitter


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

ikosmos wrote:

That interview with Darcus Howe upthread has the following quote:

"I don't call it rioting. I call it insurrection of the people."

 

 

Hold your pom poms. He also summed that statement up with "that is the nature of the hysterical moment". 

And when that fool interviewer asked him if he condoned what had happened he rightly bit her head off. 

The only people I see rejoicing about this event are those looking to exploit the tragedy in some way.

(edit)

Come to think of it, he might have said "historical" rather than "hysterical". But his distinction between "demonstrations that ended in conflict" and "riots" and his statement that he did not support what happened are clear enough.

 

 


ikosmos
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Joined: May 8 2001

Good for you for actually watching the video.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

ikosmos wrote:

Good for you for actually watching the video.

Don't patronize me. I posted it.


bekayne
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Joined: Jan 23 2006

Glasgow boy arrested for 'inciting riots' on Facebook:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/glasgow-boy-arrested-facebook-riots

At least the lad's happy

Early on Tuesday, he added: "Most hated man in Glasgow by any chance? Haha am (sic) all over Twitter n Google"


bekayne
Online
Joined: Jan 23 2006

Ghislaine wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

That interview with Darcus Howe upthread has the following quote:

"I don't call it rioting. I call it insurrection of the people."

 

 

Except for the people fleeing for their lives from burning buildings?

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/a-message-to-the-youth-of-hackney/

The use of petrol bombs and the burning of buildings is not only devastatingly destructive to the institutions and businesses in our community. It puts peoples lives at risk. In Handsworth in 1985, two people died when trapped in their flat above a shop, in 2005 a similar tragedy occurred in the Lozells district of Birmingham. On Saturday night in Tottenham families with children had to flee through a burning building to escape.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14463452

A good article explaining the causes and effects.


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Perhaps those painting these riots as "opportunistic" (what a ridiculous descriptor for something happening countrywide) should read one of the links Freedom 55 posted upthread:

Quote:
The truth is that riots almost always hurt poor, working class people.  There's no riot that embodies a pure struggle for justice, that is not also partly a self-inflicted wound.  There is no riot without looting, without anti-social behaviour, without a mixture of bad motives and bad politics.  That still doesn't mean that the riot doesn't have a certain political focus; that it doesn't have consequences for the ability of the ruling class to keep control; that the contest with the police is somehow taking place outside of its usual context of suspicion borne of institutional racism and brutality.  The rioters here, whenever they've been asked, have made it more than abundantly clear what their motives are - most basically, repaying years of police mistreatment....

A more sensible assumption, perhaps, is that you have a lot of young people with complex motives - avarice and adventure, sure, but also anger and defiance - some of whom are educated in certain traditions of resistance.  For example, The Guardian reporter Paul Lewis (who is worth following on Twitter, by the way) was surprised that Tottenham residents all knew of the IPCC and were very critical of it.  This surprise was misplaced.  Those who are most likely to suffer police repression, and thus have to make use of complaints procedures, are of course going to be in possession of certain repertoires of knowledge concerning policing and the criminal justice system.  They would make it their business to be informed, out of self-defence.  I don't buy the idea that these kids are just clueless about the political background of their oppression.  And I think they're most likely on a learning curve now, as yet undecided as to what wider political conclusions they will draw from all of this.  Like it or not, they are now part of the wider ideological crisis, now a key ingredient in the slow-motion collapse of the political leadership. How they see their involvement here, and how their perception changes, long after the smoke has cleared and the empty rhetoric has stopped, should be of some interest.

Or, Tariq Ali:

Quote:
Why is it that the same areas always erupt first, whatever the cause?

Pure accident? Might it have something to do with race and class and institutionalised poverty and the sheer grimness of everyday life?

The coalition politicians (including new New Labour, who might well sign up to a national government if the recession continues apace) with their petrified ideologies can’t say that because all three parties are equally responsible for the crisis.

They made the mess.

They privilege the wealthy. They let it be known that judges and magistrates should set an example by giving punitive sentences to protesters found with peashooters.

They never seriously question why no policeman is ever prosecuted for the 1000-plus deaths in custody since 1990.

Whatever the party, whatever the skin colour of the MP, they spout the same clichés.

Yes, we know violence on the streets in London is bad. Yes, we know that looting shops is wrong.

But why is it happening now? Why didn’t it happen last year?

Because grievances build up over time, because when the system wills the death of a young black citizen from a deprived community, it simultaneously, if subconsciously, wills the response.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Freedom 55 wrote:

Of course, M. Spector... how could you have left out assholes?

Can you tell the difference between the UK "rioters" and the anonymous unapprehended handful of window-smashers and cop-car torchers in Toronto?

Quote:
And describing the G20 protests as "a massive anti-imperialist movement" has got to be one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard.

Funny how some would legitimize the handful of G20 provocateurs, while diminishing the massive coalition of people in struggle against imperialism in all its aspects.

Anyway, calling my assessment "one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard" has got to be one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard.

Cool


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