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Tottenham Riots

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Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

I've been switching between CBC and CNN at noon today, and various commentators appearing live from London suggest the Police will impose a curfew (tough to enforce - it's a huge city) and if that fails, the Army will be called in - that is, if this all continues.


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Mark Duggan did not shoot at police, says IPCC

Quote:
Mark Duggan, whose shooting by police sparked London's riots, did not fire a shot at police officers before they killed him, the Independent Police Complaints Commission said on Tuesday.

Releasing the initial findings of ballistics tests, the police watchdog said a CO19 firearms officer fired two bullets, and that a bullet that lodged in a police radio was "consistent with being fired from a police gun".

One theory, not confirmed by the IPCC, is that the bullet became lodged in the radio from a ricochet or after passing through Duggan.

Duggan, 29, was killed last Thursday in Tottenham, north London, after armed officers stopped the minicab in which he was travelling.

The IPCC said Duggan was carrying a loaded gun, but it had no evidence that the weapon had been fired. It said tests were continuing.

 


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Panic on the streets of London.

Quote:
Noone expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter.

I’m stuck in the house, now, with rioting going on just down the road in Chalk Farm. Ealing and Clapham and Dalston are being trashed. Journalists are being mugged and beaten in the streets, and the riot cops are in retreat where they have appeared at all. Police stations are being set alight all over the country. This morning, as the smoke begins to clear, those of us who can sleep will wake up to a country in chaos. We will wake up to fear, and to racism, and to condemnation on left and right, none of which will stop this happening again, as the prospect of a second stock market clash teeters terrifyingly at the bottom of the news reports. Now is the time when we make our choices. Now is the time when we decide whether to descend into hate, or to put prejudice aside and work together. Now is the time when we decide what sort of country it is that we want to live in. Follow the #riotcleanup hashtag on Twitter. And take care of one another.

 


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Thx Catchfire.  That IMO is the best piece I've read about the riots.

Of course in Canada we have no underclass of poor unemployed youth with no future who get harrased by the police on a regular basis. (sarcasm alert)


Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

Erik Redburn wrote:

This is hardly the same as some suburban 'anarchists' breaking windows cause they got logos on them, then running off when the cops move in.  Most of these rioters have real grievances that have been ignored too long.  And they know its just going to get worse, as they're the ones who are going to be hit hardest by the next round of 'austerity' measures.

Quote:

The Bureau of Labour Statistics is reporting that the youth unemployment rate in Canada was 19.5% for the month of January, which is the highest ever rate on record.

...

Based on the numbers released by the Bureau of Labour Statistics, many young people will not be able to afford to attend school this coming year. The number of young people employed in the month of January was just 51.4%, which is the lowest January rate on record. 

...

The industry that employed the highest number of youths in January of 2011 was Leisure & Hospitality, followed closely by Retail Trade. Leisure & Hospitality includes food services, which would include all of the people working at places like McDonald's, Starbucks and Burger King.

Nothing to see in Canada all the youth are privileged and have no real grievances.  They have a bright and stellar future ahead of them with the clear choice of a $9.00 an hour job or tens of thousands of dollars of debt trying to get a degree.  What other choices can they expect?  Like the great Dickens line we are saying to them, "you want more?


N.R.KISSED
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Joined: Aug 22 2001

Ghislaine wrote:

I find it interesting that there are no women rioting? Surely there are just as many women who are poor and hopeless in this area?

Makes me think that maybe, just maybe it has more to do with machismo testosterone fuelled male rage than some type of social justice action by these young men. They are setting fire to busses and buildings and stealing cell phones, flat screen TVs, etc. Prior to these men becoming violent it was a peaceful protest against police brutality. Funny how it is always men.

Still cannot get over how some can defend large-scale arson??? Can imagine being anywhere near there. It would have been absolutely frightening, especially as a woman. When men get themselves worked up in frenzies like this they are more likely to rape, or be violent with women.

Nobody is "cheerleading" Some of us are seeking to understand without engaging in knee-jerk condemnation of the actions of people whose experiences and realities are vastly different than the white middle class who are making these judgements.

No one is arguing that this is planned and co-oridinated revolutionary uprising. What it is is an understandable response to decades of racism, police violence, exclusion and marginalization. Yes it is angry, messy, and dangerous, what do you expect.It is clear that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what it is to live wihtout access to education,employment, housing and facing constant harrassment from the police. The tories never cared about these communities and snivelling weasel blair and his new labour abandoned them so that they could court the bankers and Rupert Murdoch.

Commentators talk about the destruction of the communities that these actions are causing. What about the decades long assault of neo-liberalsim upon these communities and their inhabitants. This is the true source of violence, in all its forms economic, social as well as physical(police violence and harrassment.). The financial elite engaged in massive fraud and were bailed out at the expense of some of the poorest.

I'm only surprised this didn't happen earlier.

 


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Northern Shoveler wrote:

Erik Redburn wrote:

This is hardly the same as some suburban 'anarchists' breaking windows cause they got logos on them, then running off when the cops move in.  Most of these rioters have real grievances that have been ignored too long.  And they know its just going to get worse, as they're the ones who are going to be hit hardest by the next round of 'austerity' measures.

Quote:

The Bureau of Labour Statistics is reporting that the youth unemployment rate in Canada was 19.5% for the month of January, which is the highest ever rate on record.

...

Based on the numbers released by the Bureau of Labour Statistics, many young people will not be able to afford to attend school this coming year. The number of young people employed in the month of January was just 51.4%, which is the lowest January rate on record. 

...

The industry that employed the highest number of youths in January of 2011 was Leisure & Hospitality, followed closely by Retail Trade. Leisure & Hospitality includes food services, which would include all of the people working at places like McDonald's, Starbucks and Burger King.

Nothing to see in Canada all the youth are privileged and have no real grievances.  They have a bright and stellar future ahead of them with the clear choice of a $9.00 an hour job or tens of thousands of dollars of debt trying to get a degree.  What other choices can they expect?  Like the great Dickens line we are saying to them, "you want more?

 

Please reread my post; where do you get the idea that I ever believed that this travelling band of well dressed 'anarchists' represents the struggling youth of Canada anymore than the inner city kids rioting in England?


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

Unionist wrote:

Freedom 55 wrote:

Of course, M. Spector... how could you have left out assholes?

Can you tell the difference between the UK "rioters" and the anonymous unapprehended handful of window-smashers and cop-car torchers in Toronto?

Quote:
And describing the G20 protests as "a massive anti-imperialist movement" has got to be one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard.

Funny how some would legitimize the handful of G20 provocateurs, while diminishing the massive coalition of people in struggle against imperialism in all its aspects.

Anyway, calling my assessment "one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard" has got to be one of the most overly hyperbolic claims I've ever heard.

Cool

 

The MOST overly Hyperbolic EVER??????   But -but Unionist. isn't 'overly hyperbolic' kind of redundant as well?  How about 'just a tad hyperbolic'? Or is that an oxymoron now?       

The more I write the more confusing it all gets.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

"The area's MP, Diane Abbott, said a London-wide curfew should be considered"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14450248



I'm not so sure you can call this a political movement or a movement with a message against neoliberalism.
It seems more that the situation has now developed into random pockets of looting/violence from what once was a peaceful protest against the actions of the police.

 

Edit: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/aug/09/diane-ab...

Edit 2: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/diane-abbott-a-tinder-...


Erik Redburn
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Joined: Feb 26 2004

N.R.KISSED wrote:

Ghislaine wrote:

I find it interesting that there are no women rioting? Surely there are just as many women who are poor and hopeless in this area?

Makes me think that maybe, just maybe it has more to do with machismo testosterone fuelled male rage than some type of social justice action by these young men. They are setting fire to busses and buildings and stealing cell phones, flat screen TVs, etc. Prior to these men becoming violent it was a peaceful protest against police brutality. Funny how it is always men.

Still cannot get over how some can defend large-scale arson??? Can imagine being anywhere near there. It would have been absolutely frightening, especially as a woman. When men get themselves worked up in frenzies like this they are more likely to rape, or be violent with women.

Nobody is "cheerleading" Some of us are seeking to understand without engaging in knee-jerk condemnation of the actions of people whose experiences and realities are vastly different than the white middle class who are making these judgements.

No one is arguing that this is planned and co-oridinated revolutionary uprising. What it is is an understandable response to decades of racism, police violence, exclusion and marginalization. Yes it is angry, messy, and dangerous, what do you expect.It is clear that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what it is to live wihtout access to education,employment, housing and facing constant harrassment from the police. The tories never cared about these communities and snivelling weasel blair and his new labour abandoned them so that they could court the bankers and Rupert Murdoch.

Commentators talk about the destruction of the communities that these actions are causing. What about the decades long assault of neo-liberalsim upon these communities and their inhabitants. This is the true source of violence, in all its forms economic, social as well as physical(police violence and harrassment.). The financial elite engaged in massive fraud and were bailed out at the expense of some of the poorest.

I'm only surprised this didn't happen earlier.

 

 

It must be frightening to be caught up in the middle of it Ghislaine.  It's not a desired result.   But s NRK put so well, we all need to try and understand what leads to this.  So we can all do something about it, somethin more positive and lasting than just trying to suppress it by force or deny our own responsibility as a society.  Something the Thatcherites tried to deny even existed.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

I heard on CBC that there is a Canadian connection - Research In Motion is being pressured to help the British government intercept communications between the rioters, which is done using blackberries. 

Not sure where they came to that conclusion... I can't even afford one.

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Catchfire wrote:

Panic on the streets of London.

 

Amazing, moving, infuriating, beautiful. Thank you Catchfire. Where do you find this stuff??


Freedom 55
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Joined: Mar 14 2010

Unionist wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Panic on the streets of London.

 

Amazing, moving, infuriating, beautiful. Thank you Catchfire. Where do you find this stuff??

 

post 11 Cool


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Sorry for the frivilous diversion, but if you haven't been thinking about the song cue, you're dead below the neck:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AlH2oYedfk

(those cavedwellers who don't know about the Smiths are excused, of course)

 


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Freedom 55 wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Panic on the streets of London.

 

Amazing, moving, infuriating, beautiful. Thank you Catchfire. Where do you find this stuff??

 

post 11 Cool

LOL! Thank you, Freedom 55. Credit where it's due. So where do you find this stuff??


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Freedom 55 wrote:

Unionist wrote:
Amazing, moving, infuriating, beautiful. Thank you Catchfire. Where do you find this stuff??

 

post 11 Cool

Ha! Sorry for stealing your scoop, F55!


Freedom 55
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Joined: Mar 14 2010

No worries, CF.

 

Unionist wrote:

LOL! Thank you, Freedom 55. Credit where it's due. So where do you find this stuff??

 

For better or worse, Facebook. Undecided


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001


I think a lot of us would like to think of this as a political riot.  And it is; but not in the way that we'd like to think of a political riot.

And then a lot would just like to condemn it as acts of violent thugs and opportunists.

But watching the BBC trying to control the narrative in their very British way shows you what is really going on.

This doesn't happen in a place where police have credibility.  This doesn't happen in a place where most people have jobs and belief that tomorrow could be better.  This doesn't happen in a place where ordinary people aren't punished for the criminality of bankers.


The hypocrisy of the British officals in all this is hillarious.

If they had done thier jobs the way they were supposed to, none of this would be happening.


Tommy_Paine
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Joined: Apr 22 2001



A riot about unlicenced drinking establishment issues that opportunists and criminals used to their own ends?

http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_index.htm


Couldn't have been political?


Freedom 55
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Joined: Mar 14 2010

Nothing 'mindless' about rioters

 

Quote:
Civil disturbances never have a single, simple meaning. When the Bastille was being stormed the thieves of Paris doubtless took advantage of the mayhem to rob houses and waylay unlucky revolutionaries. Sometimes the thieves were revolutionaries. Sometimes the revolutionaries were thieves. And it is reckless to start making confident claims about events that are spread across the country and that have many different elements. In Britain over the past few days there have been clashes between the police and young people. Crowds have set buildings, cars and buses on fire. Shops have been looted and passersby have been attacked. Only a fool would announce what it all means.

We can dispense with some mistakes, though. It is wrong to say that the riots are apolitical. The trouble began on Saturday night when protesters gathered at Tottenham police station to demand that the police explain the circumstances in which a local man, Mark Duggan, had been shot dead by the police. The death of a Londoner, another black Londoner, at the hands of the police has a gruesome significance. The police are employed to keep the peace and the police shot someone dead. This is a deeply political matter. Besides, it is conventional to say how much policing in London has changed since the Brixton riots of the early eighties - but not many people mouthing the conventional wisdom have much firsthand experience of being young and poor in Britain's inner cities. 

 

More broadly, any breakdown of civil order is inescapably political. Quite large numbers of mostly young people have decided that, on balance, they want to take to the streets and attack the forces of law and order, damage property or steal goods. Their motives may differ - they are bound to differ. But their actions can only be understood adequately in political terms. While the recklessness of adrenaline has something to do with what is happening, the willingness to act is something to be explained. We should perhaps ask them what they were thinking before reaching for phrases like "mindless violence". We might actually learn something.

Quote:
The global economic crisis is at least as political as the riots we've seen in the last few days. It has lasted far longer and done far more damage. We need not draw a straight line from the decision to bail out the banks to what's going on now in London. But we must not lose sight of what both events tell us about our current condition. Those who want to see law and order restored must turn their attention to a menace that no amount of riot police will disperse; a social and political order that rewards vandalism and the looting of public property, so long as the perpetrators are sufficiently rich and powerful.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

It should be interesting to the effectiveness of CCTV against the looters.

 

It is true that some of this does have a poltical and social beginning, but now its spiraled way out of control.


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

dacckon wrote:
It is true that some of this does have a poltical and social beginning, but now its spiraled way out of control.

Tell me, dacckon: what, in your opinion, would be a suitable, measured and sober response to police brutality, economic warfare and decades of neglect from its "elected representatives"? 


ikosmos
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Joined: May 8 2001

"Obey the law," of course. That's what "little fat Dave" said when the extremist Social Credit regime went ahead and passed all of their monstrous and repressive legislation back in 1983 ... and tens of thousands of people protested on the lawn of the legislature in Victoria. 

In "Pardon the Disturbance" Eduardo Galeano wrote: "The lords of the world only condemn violence when others practice it." Those who agree with the powerful are likely to share such views.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

Something that doesn't resort to violence. Examples of sucessful nonviolent campaigners include Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Mandela in the later half of his struggle against apartheid.

 

In other words, This.


6079_Smith_W
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Joined: Jun 10 2010

Catchfire wrote:

dacckon wrote:
It is true that some of this does have a poltical and social beginning, but now its spiraled way out of control.

Tell me, dacckon: what, in your opinion, would be a suitable, measured and sober response to police brutality, economic warfare and decades of neglect from its "elected representatives"? 

That question is based on the assumption that the riots were a planned act of strategy - or a response, as you say. 

It also sounds like your rhetorical point is that this was the right response. Correct me if I am wrong.

Not only are they not the actions of one group or one mind, but dacckon is right to say the situation is currently out of control. If there is one person or group that could stop it, I'd be interested to know who that is.

 

@ Ikosmos

And as for 1983.... a few of us remember what eventually happened.

 

 


Bec.De.Corbin
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Joined: Mar 17 2010

 

Terrorize the local population until they give you what you want... then terrorize them a little more just because you now know you can.


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

dacckon wrote:

Something that doesn't resort to violence. Examples of sucessful nonviolent campaigners include Martin Luther King Jr, Gandhi, Mandela in the later half of his struggle against apartheid.

 

In other words, This.

Gandhi, King and Mandela all used nonviolence-that still doesn't mean any white priveleged person, such as yourself, has the right to demand that the dispossessed be nonviolent.  No one who is a beneficiary in any way at all of the existing order is entitled to lecture the powerless on their choice of tactics.

Basically, you're kind of on the other side of the barricades.  Effectively, I sort of am too, but at least I'm aware of my lack of moral entitlement on this issue and I'm trying to make my way to the correct side of the struggle, which means giving up any pretense that people like myself can ever claim moral superiority.  For people like us to demand that the powerless use nonviolence, admirable as it would be for them to use it, is basically the same as the police or the army complaining that those people, in resisting by other means, are making it harder for the forces of oppression to kill them.


Sven
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Joined: Jul 22 2005

Ken Burch wrote:

Gandhi, King and Mandela all used nonviolence-that still doesn't mean any white priveleged person, such as yourself, has the right to demand that the dispossessed be nonviolent.  No one who is a beneficiary in any way at all of the existing order is entitled to lecture the powerless on their choice of tactics.

So, anything goes, as long as the rioters say so?


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