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Climate Change general thread Pt.2

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Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Thanks for confirming my question with a link, Policywonk. My memory is not what it used to be.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

From a friend on Facebook:

Species migrating north at ‘two and three times faster’ than reported

excerpt:

"Inuit communities are encountering species their traditional languages don't even have words for," professor Jeremy Kerr of the University of Ottawa told the Star on Friday. "This is not a subtle effect."

Canada has been a prime proving ground for study of how climate change is pushing plant and animal species north, said Kerr, because "climate has changed earlier and more substantially in Canada than practically anywhere else on Earth."


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

There was an item on CBC radio news yesterday about this. Apparently you can catch tropical coral reef fish off the shores of the Maritimes these days. They are fleeing their habitats in the Caribbean. They will of course die off in great numbers because they don't have time to adapt to their new environment.


Boom Boom
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This is not a scientific observation, so take it as you will: I've lived on the coast of Quebec below Labrador since 1995, and have rarely, if ever, seen anyone go into the water. However, this summer the kids here have been in the water most of the month of July - and our highest air temperature had been 72F. If the kids are in the water, then it might (I'm not sure, really) be reasonable to suggest the water (Gulf of St. Lawrence) is not as cold as it has been in the past - when people avoided going in the water at all costs because it was so cold.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Adapting To Climate Change: An Introduction  For Canadian Municipalities  (.pdf format)
 
of particular interest to me was this:
 
Coping with Shoreline Erosion in Sept-Îles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20

(from 2006)


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Interesting pamphlet there, Boom Boom. It talks about how municipalities will have to cope with extreme weather events, but it ignores other equally serious consequences of climate change — the social and economic ones. Like the pressure of the influx of climate refugees, or massive food shortages caused by droughts and crop failures and habitat degradation, or economic depression resulting from a worldwide degradation of the environment, or disease pandemics, or migration of disease-bearing insects and animals, or pressures on public transportation resources and other municipal services as automobiles become too expensive to operate, etc.   


Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

M. Spector wrote:

Interesting pamphlet there, Boom Boom. It talks about how municipalities will have to cope with extreme weather events, but it ignores other equally serious consequences of climate change — the social and economic ones. Like the pressure of the influx of climate refugees, or massive food shortages caused by droughts and crop failures and habitat degradation, or economic depression resulting from a worldwide degradation of the environment, or disease pandemics, or migration of disease-bearing insects and animals, or pressures on public transportation resources and other municipal services as automobiles become too expensive to operate, etc.   

I don't think it completely ignores social and economic impacts, but it is a very limited analysis and ignores the more serious social and economic consequences you mention.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Yes to all of the above, but I think it was meant as an introduction to how municipalities can cope with climate change, using the examples listed in Contents. The Sept-Iles example is relevant to me as we are experiencing the same problem 450 km east of that city. And it's from 2006 - I was not able to find an updated version of it.


Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

http://www.nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2011/09/arctic-sea-ice-min...

Getting awfully close to a new record minimum extent. Already the second lowest minimum extent.


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

M. Spector wrote:

Climate change is not a technical problem. It is a social, political, and economic problem.

The scientists and engineers aren't going to solve it. Revolutionary social change is the only answer.

we have a serious crtical global human self interest relationship problem which of course includes all of the above.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Sorry, but I can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

thats a total agree :)


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

That's nice.


2dawall
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Joined: Apr 12 2010

Meaning the self-interest of 2% or 10% versus the self-interest of the other 90-98% and future generations? That conflict?

I wish 350.org, Rising Tides, and SOS Climate were having more impacts as groups but they are invisisble when you watch CNN; I only have access to basic cable so I do not get FOX (do not want either) and do not get MSNNBC. When I go to their websites, they are not covering them either. These groups have to  develop a strategy to break through the media blocade.


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

2dawall wrote:

Meaning the self-interest of 2% or 10% versus the self-interest of the other 90-98% and future generations? That conflict?

I wish 350.org, Rising Tides, and SOS Climate were having more impacts as groups but they are invisisble when you watch CNN; I only have access to basic cable so I do not get FOX (do not want either) and do not get MSNNBC. When I go to their websites, they are not covering them either. These groups have to  develop a strategy to break through the media blocade.

spector I liked  the cool little dancing dude :)

 

2dawall Which conflict, our human relationships conflict? Thats what Im referring to. About the organizations you mentioned, well theres tons more and maybe to develop a strategy that bridges and connects all the facts and evidence (not just about climate change) that focuses on this  common concern for the survival and true equality of civilization seems to be the only chance for real change to influence a positive direction. I dont even have basic cabel tv, I cancelled it years ago, I got figgin bored with everything, so the internet is my main source of information.

Im placing a link here to a good documentary (perhaps you guys have seen already) Ive got alot of stuff on file on various issues that always great to pass along for any interested

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/

 

Lets build a boat!

 


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

ruth67 wrote:

Im placing a link here to a good documentary (perhaps you guys have seen already) Ive got alot of stuff on file on various issues that always great to pass along for any interested

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/

Thank you for that link, Ruth. I had not seen that movie before, and it's quite good. Derrick Jensen made me cry, as he often does.

I challenge anyone to watch that movie and then tell me with a straight face that working to put a social-democratic government in charge of the capitalist system is anything but a waste of precious time.

 

ruth67 wrote:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blind-spot/

another good 1

Unfortunately the copyright police have removed this video from the web.


2dawall
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Joined: Apr 12 2010

Well you mentioned 'self-interest' as a concept previously but it is mentioned vaguely and does not clearly define anything. Very little that is happening now is in the 'self-interest' of most - pretty much everything is in the self-interest of 2-10% something that some here cannot pick up on or are trying to avoid.

ruth67 wrote:

2dawall wrote:

Meaning the self-interest of 2% or 10% versus the self-interest of the other 90-98% and future generations? That conflict?

I wish 350.org, Rising Tides, and SOS Climate were having more impacts as groups but they are invisisble when you watch CNN; I only have access to basic cable so I do not get FOX (do not want either) and do not get MSNNBC. When I go to their websites, they are not covering them either. These groups have to  develop a strategy to break through the media blocade.

spector I liked  the cool little dancing dude :)

 

2dawall Which conflict, our human relationships conflict? Thats what Im referring to. About the organizations you mentioned, well theres tons more and maybe to develop a strategy that bridges and connects all the facts and evidence (not just about climate change) that focuses on this  common concern for the survival and true equality of civilization seems to be the only chance for real change to influence a positive direction. I dont even have basic cabel tv, I cancelled it years ago, I got figgin bored with everything, so the internet is my main source of information.

Im placing a link here to a good documentary (perhaps you guys have seen already) Ive got alot of stuff on file on various issues that always great to pass along for any interested

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/

 

Lets build a boat!

 


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

Hi 2dawall

I was replying here, took a second thought and erased my words that perhaps they may be misunderstood but I will add 1 tiny personal concern that its a lousy feeling everyday Im sending my kids to school in this system and they are constantly influenced by society and  are becoming more and more egotistacly  selfish by the day (it doesnt matter what ethics I try to establish in my private home and its a constant battle also with my ego) and no Im not blaming anyone anymore including myself because that wont help solving any  of the issues. What has this got to do with climate change? I personally feel its  Alot, including every other issue on the planet.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/  I would highly recommend watching this film and we can discuss the diversity of our human crisis 

Bookchin argues that "the conflict between humanity and nature is an extension of the conflict between human and human. Unless the ecology movement encompasses the problem of domination in all its aspects, it will contribute nothing toward eliminating the root causes of the ecological crisis of our time.

http://ita.anarchopedia.org/D.4_Qual%E2%80%99%C3%A8_la_relazione_tra_capitalismo_e_crisi_ecologica%3F

. It follows, from this view, that these ecological problems cannot be understood, let alone solved, without a careful understanding of our existing society and the irrationalities that dominate it. To make this point more concrete: economic, ethnic, cultural, and gender conflicts, among many others, lie at the core of the most serious ecological dislocations we face today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bookchin 

and 1 more

 

"I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society."

Albert Einstein

 


ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

Thank you for that link, Ruth. I had not seen that movie before, and it's quite good. Derrick Jensen made me cry, as he often does.

I challenge anyone to watch that movie and then tell me with a straight face that working to put a social-democratic government in charge of the capitalist system is anything but a waste of precious time.

 

ruth67 wrote:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/blind-spot/

 

Unfortunately the copyright police have removed this video from the web.

Hi Spector

Its my pleasure to pass that on and Im happy for you that you enjoyed it Smile and thats nice to hear that you cried :) Derek Jensen is great and I really enjoyed this film because it dwelves deeper into the roots of whats happening.

About Blind Spot its a very well detailed  doc for spreading a general awareness of how critical our situation is, heres a link for reviews on it http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5127 

After I read here that the link has been removed from the web I wrote to a friend who had sent me that film through some download  service  so he checked for me if it was available so I could forward you through an email but he  said that its also  been removed from that service .


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Speaking of copyright police and documentaries, I noted that in a recent circular email Michael Moore actually thanked the anonymous person who posted his Fahrenheit 911 in its entirety on YouTube, and he even provided a link for us to see it! What a refreshing attitude!


epaulo13
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Joined: Dec 13 2009

M. Spector wrote:

ruth67 wrote:

Im placing a link here to a good documentary (perhaps you guys have seen already) Ive got alot of stuff on file on various issues that always great to pass along for any interested

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/

Thank you for that link, Ruth. I had not seen that movie before, and it's quite good. Derrick Jensen made me cry, as he often does.

I challenge anyone to watch that movie and then tell me with a straight face that working to put a social-democratic government in charge of the capitalist system is anything but a waste of precious time.

..i thank you as well ruth. great catch. powerful film and if i may say so an artistic masterpiece.

..i don't have any special sources re the environment. yet i can, without much effort, understand how urgent it is to begin the process of meaningful change. this change is not limited to to the environment but to our political and financial systems as they are interconnected. one cannot be resolved without the other. this is vital.

..after watching this film the only thing i have left for the ndp is that today, sept 13 2011, i forgive the party what i view as past transgressions. but tomorrow i will take the position that the party fully understands the crisis we are in and that it will reflect that understanding in words, deeds and policy.

..i have nothing else to give to the ndp. my energies will be totally focused on building the indignant movements, participatory democracy and local issues.


Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005
ruth67
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Joined: Aug 17 2011

epaulo13 wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

ruth67 wrote:

Im placing a link here to a good documentary (perhaps you guys have seen already) Ive got alot of stuff on file on various issues that always great to pass along for any interested

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/what-a-way-to-go-life-at-the-end-of-empire/

Thank you for that link, Ruth. I had not seen that movie before, and it's quite good. Derrick Jensen made me cry, as he often does.

I challenge anyone to watch that movie and then tell me with a straight face that working to put a social-democratic government in charge of the capitalist system is anything but a waste of precious time.

..i thank you as well ruth. great catch. powerful film and if i may say so an artistic masterpiece.

..i don't have any special sources re the environment. yet i can, without much effort, understand how urgent it is to begin the process of meaningful change. this change is not limited to to the environment but to our political and financial systems as they are interconnected. one cannot be resolved without the other. this is vital.

..after watching this film the only thing i have left for the ndp is that today, sept 13 2011, i forgive the party what i view as past transgressions. but tomorrow i will take the position that the party fully understands the crisis we are in and that it will reflect that understanding in words, deeds and policy.

..i have nothing else to give to the ndp. my energies will be totally focused on building the indignant movements, participatory democracy and local issues.

 

Hi Epaulo13, im happy to hear your positive reactions to this film and im sure you will focus and strive to succeed in an influential beneficial direction

 

"With the current globalization of our problems, we need to extend our circle of empathy and view humanity as a worldwide extended human family. As long as we refrain from facing that challenge, divisiveness and unsolvable conflicts will persist."
Rodrigue Tremblay

 


2dawall
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Joined: Apr 12 2010

M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

allah
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Joined: Mar 15 2011

Is there any published research indicating what the response time sea-level rise and global temperature increase is to a specific rise in CO2? i.e. when should we expext the general public to notice these effects or are they too gradual to make people aware of the risks?


Gaian
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Joined: Aug 5 2011
The "general public" might take note when the melt water rises to their necks. A generalization based on a half-century of trying to find a spark of awareness to life around them, let alone ongoing concern in that August social group.

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