babble-intro-img
babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

NDP Leadership Part 7

104 replies [Last post]

Comments

nicky
Offline
Joined: Aug 3 2005

Lawrence Martin on Mulcair:

 

"Firebrand Mulcair is the best bet to take on Harper"

 

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/firebrand-mulcair-i...


DaveW
Offline
Joined: Dec 24 2008

Rebecca West wrote:

Boom Boom wrote:

Well, we had French taught to us in 1959 when I was in primary school just outside Ottawa - but it was taught orally, and I'm hard of hearing - and I never really picked it up. I took French for a year as an adult and have a certificate for Basic French, but it was really, really difficult for me - some folks just don't take to learning a new language the way others do, and if, like me, you have a  disability (deafness) it's even more difficult.

That's a very good point.  [...]

It also depends upon your starting point - if your current knowledge of the language is rated beginner, low-intermediate, high-intermediate or advanced, your progress will be significantly different.  For example, my French is low-intermediate.  It would take a few months for me to move to high-intermediate (the base level of fluency for one to be considered bilingual).  Given my age and ability, I would probably never move on to Advanced French (perfectly fluent) unless I were actually living and working in French the vast majority of the time, but I would be able to express myself in French and understand it in fairly nuanced ways.

Language immersion is the only real answer;

I have good scholarly but not fluent use of a couple of languages, but have never lived in the countries concerned, hence a stagnation at "book" level;

for French, by contrast, I lived with a Quebec City family and really really struggled -- first exchange summer I "failed", I like to recall -- but then came the "click" into fluency....

that only comes with immersion, unless you are truly gifted

 As for a national party leader, yes, it is very very important; after all, you have to communicate with your constituents.

I remember a hilarious routine that former PQ minister Gerald Godin did about Diefenbaker speaking to a crowd of paperworkers in Trois Rivieres... about his sweeping dreams, grand proposals -- "but no one understood a godamned word he was saying"

 

 

 


Boom Boom
Offline
Joined: Dec 29 2004

It had to happen sooner or later: CBC has started a poll asking who should be the next NDP leader. "Other" is currently in the lead. Laughing


josh
Offline
Joined: Aug 5 2002

nicky wrote:

Lawrence Martin on Mulcair:

 

"Firebrand Mulcair is the best bet to take on Harper"

 

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/firebrand-mulcair-i...

 

By comparison, other potential leadership candidates don't stack up. Olivia Chow doesn't have the force of personality and doesn't speak good French. Given Quebec's importance, anyone not highly proficient in the language should not even apply for leadership consideration. Party president Brian Topp is bilingual and is shrewd, but has no active political experience, no Commons seat and is charisma-challenged. Paul Dewar is highly intelligent, a politician of integrity, but lacks brass and would be vulnerable to Mr. Harper in the same way as a Stéphane Dion.

 

 

Wow.  Only three other potential leadership candidates?  One of whom is not running, and another who has never run before.  Martin could not come up with any other "potential leadership candidates"? 


DaveW
Offline
Joined: Dec 24 2008

re CBC poll

"Someone else"" and "I don't care" are mounting strong campaigns to date ...

they could finish 1-2 on the final ballot


klexo
Offline
Joined: Nov 29 2005

As usual, the Globe is knee-deep trying to game the result: Topp is a front runner but serious contenders like Peter Julian and Peggy Nash et al do not warrant a mention. 


Sarann
Offline
Joined: Dec 23 2006

Meaghan Leslie - great person - not experienced enough - yet

Paul Dewer - great person - too gentle to confront Harper

Thomas Mulcair - don't let the main stream media tell you what to think of him, they are all anti NDP

Brian Topp - who is he? That's what Canadian will think

Charlie Angus - a real fighter for what's right

I am going to ask my NDP MP - he knows them all.  He was right last time.


josh
Offline
Joined: Aug 5 2002

 

"As usual, the Globe is knee-deep trying to game the result: Topp is a front runner but serious contenders like Peter Julian and Peggy Nash et al do not warrant a mention."

 

Exactly.  The establishment media has made their choice.  Woebegone to those who do not follow their command.


Rebecca West
Offline
Joined: Nov 28 2001

DaveW wrote:

I remember a hilarious routine that former PQ minister Gerald Godin did about Diefenbaker speaking to a crowd of paperworkers in Trois Rivieres... about his sweeping dreams, grand proposals -- "but no one understood a godamned word he was saying"

Jean Chrètien was said to be incoherent in both official languages Laughing


artemmedv
Offline
Joined: Aug 28 2011

Other ridings to target: Edmonton Mill Woods Beaumont, Edmonton Leduc, Calgary Centre, Calgary North-East, Calgary East, Yellowhead

It's nice to see our riding of Edmonton-Leduc in a list of hopefuls, as well as Nadine Bailey's Mill Woods Beaumont and Mark Wells' Yellowhead.

We'll keep trying!


Sarann
Offline
Joined: Dec 23 2006

Northern Alberta sent Grant Notley to Edmonton till he died in that plane crash so it's not all fallow territory.


Policywonk
Offline
Joined: Feb 6 2005

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/ndp-contender...

Now Brian Topp wants a longer leadership contest too.


Northern Shoveler
Offline
Joined: Feb 17 2011

It says that Topp has recused himself from the decisions around the convention.   

The NDP will miss a great opportunity to showcase its "front bench" if the campaign is too short or has too few candidates. An April vote would allow the last debates to be in the context of the latest budget.  Other than MSM talking heads has anyone else been pushing an early leadership vote?  


Aristotleded24
Offline
Joined: May 24 2005

Northern Shoveler wrote:
The NDP will miss a great opportunity to showcase its "front bench" if the campaign is too short or has too few candidates. An April vote would allow the last debates to be in the context of the latest budget.

And it would also help to showcase many more members of the NDP Caucus to Canadians, they would get to know them and have a sense of how an NDP Cabinet would look.


JeffWells
Offline
Joined: Dec 15 2003

Libby Davies: What's Next for the NDP?

Quote:
...talking mergers (as they do in the corporate world) is not a way to realize this vision -- and is not something I'm in favour of. What I believe can bring this vision to fruition is doing the hard work of reaching out and engaging Canadians in a more participatory democratic political process. Let's stand down the elites and move up the grassroots. Let's acknowledge that we do live in a classed, racialized, and gendered society, and that our political work should open up and embrace bold change that transforms power towards a society that is more equalized, sharing, and compassionate.

This means understanding the structural changes that are required -- such as electoral reform and fairer taxation. It also means emboldening our principles and actions: to defend public services, to stand for a principled position against war and oppression, and uphold basic human dignity and social and environmental justice. It means realizing that those at the top don't have a monopoly on deciding what needs to be done. Let's look to real life experience, the energy of youth, and the collective wisdom manifested in strong local communities, where many amazing changes are taking place that must be supported and sustained.

 


Rebecca West
Offline
Joined: Nov 28 2001

JeffWells wrote:

Libby Davies: What's Next for the NDP?

Quote:
...talking mergers (as they do in the corporate world) is not a way to realize this vision -- and is not something I'm in favour of. What I believe can bring this vision to fruition is doing the hard work of reaching out and engaging Canadians in a more participatory democratic political process. Let's stand down the elites and move up the grassroots. Let's acknowledge that we do live in a classed, racialized, and gendered society, and that our political work should open up and embrace bold change that transforms power towards a society that is more equalized, sharing, and compassionate.

This means understanding the structural changes that are required -- such as electoral reform and fairer taxation. It also means emboldening our principles and actions: to defend public services, to stand for a principled position against war and oppression, and uphold basic human dignity and social and environmental justice. It means realizing that those at the top don't have a monopoly on deciding what needs to be done. Let's look to real life experience, the energy of youth, and the collective wisdom manifested in strong local communities, where many amazing changes are taking place that must be supported and sustained.

What's not to love?


Howard
Offline
Joined: Aug 31 2011

Rebecca West wrote:

JeffWells wrote:

Libby Davies: What's Next for the NDP?

Quote:
...talking mergers (as they do in the corporate world) is not a way to realize this vision -- and is not something I'm in favour of. What I believe can bring this vision to fruition is doing the hard work of reaching out and engaging Canadians in a more participatory democratic political process. Let's stand down the elites and move up the grassroots. Let's acknowledge that we do live in a classed, racialized, and gendered society, and that our political work should open up and embrace bold change that transforms power towards a society that is more equalized, sharing, and compassionate.

This means understanding the structural changes that are required -- such as electoral reform and fairer taxation. It also means emboldening our principles and actions: to defend public services, to stand for a principled position against war and oppression, and uphold basic human dignity and social and environmental justice. It means realizing that those at the top don't have a monopoly on deciding what needs to be done. Let's look to real life experience, the energy of youth, and the collective wisdom manifested in strong local communities, where many amazing changes are taking place that must be supported and sustained.

What's not to love?

The lack of details. Otherwise, it makes for good motivational reading.


Boom Boom
Offline
Joined: Dec 29 2004

Stockwell Day just gave a strong endorsement to Mulcair on P&P. Laughing


knownothing
Offline
Joined: Mar 24 2011

Boy that was a lively Firing Line wasn't it?


Rebecca West
Offline
Joined: Nov 28 2001

Howard wrote:

Rebecca West wrote:

JeffWells wrote:

Libby Davies: What's Next for the NDP?

Quote:
...talking mergers (as they do in the corporate world) is not a way to realize this vision -- and is not something I'm in favour of. What I believe can bring this vision to fruition is doing the hard work of reaching out and engaging Canadians in a more participatory democratic political process. Let's stand down the elites and move up the grassroots. Let's acknowledge that we do live in a classed, racialized, and gendered society, and that our political work should open up and embrace bold change that transforms power towards a society that is more equalized, sharing, and compassionate.

This means understanding the structural changes that are required -- such as electoral reform and fairer taxation. It also means emboldening our principles and actions: to defend public services, to stand for a principled position against war and oppression, and uphold basic human dignity and social and environmental justice. It means realizing that those at the top don't have a monopoly on deciding what needs to be done. Let's look to real life experience, the energy of youth, and the collective wisdom manifested in strong local communities, where many amazing changes are taking place that must be supported and sustained.

What's not to love?

The lack of details. Otherwise, it makes for good motivational reading.

Um, it's an Op Ed, not a campaign platform.


edmundoconnor
Offline
Joined: Jul 7 2009

Boom Boom wrote:

Stockwell Day just gave a strong endorsement to Mulcair on P&P. Laughing

With friends like that …


nicky
Offline
Joined: Aug 3 2005

Layton letter not intended to block Mulcair: Chow



Read more: http://www.canada.com/Layton+letter+intended+block+Mulcair+Chow/5360779/story.html#ixzz1XE1BJePT

 

Incidentally, what did Day say?


nicky
Offline
Joined: Aug 3 2005

Layton letter not intended to block Mulcair: Chow



Read more: http://www.canada.com/Layton+letter+intended+block+Mulcair+Chow/5360779/story.html#ixzz1XE1BJePT

 

Incidentally, what did Day say?


Ciabatta2
Offline
Joined: Jan 23 2009

flight from kamakura wrote:

exactly.  59 quebec mps, and government within reach with only another 30-35.  it's all completely different, a new universe, like you say.

This is correct.  French can be learned, but not by an NDP leader with the majority of its causcus from Québec.

Which, in a sense is too bad, because as someone else posted, Charlie Angus would have been one hell of a candidate.  Word was he was considering running for the provincial leadership but wasn't willing to give up the national scope of arts issues or trample on his buddy Bisson's bid.


Malcolm
Offline
Joined: Mar 14 2004
Policywonk wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
DaveW wrote:

Globe's view

"Why unions and not environmental groups?" Mr. Mulcair asked about the leadership rules.

 

 

 

The affiliate provisions of the NDP constitution allow any group which supports the party's principles and agrees to abide by the party's constitution to affiliate to the party. Not all affiliates are Labour organizations, nor has that ever been the case.

Can you name an affiliate that isn't a Labour organization?

Well, not that it matters, but I believe the Woodsworth-Irvine Socialist Fellowship is still an affiliated organization. The point is that there is nothing that prevents any group from affiliating with the NDP, provided that, as a group, they support the party's principles and agree to abide by the party's constitution. So, even if every last affiliate were a labour union / local, and even if every affiliate in the party's history had been a labour union local, that wouldn't change the fact that there is nothing preventing non-labour organizations from affiliating. FWIW, one of the affiliates of the UK Labour Party is the Christian Socialist Fellowship.

Policywonk
Offline
Joined: Feb 6 2005

Malcolm wrote:
Policywonk wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
DaveW wrote:

Globe's view

"Why unions and not environmental groups?" Mr. Mulcair asked about the leadership rules.

The affiliate provisions of the NDP constitution allow any group which supports the party's principles and agrees to abide by the party's constitution to affiliate to the party. Not all affiliates are Labour organizations, nor has that ever been the case.

Can you name an affiliate that isn't a Labour organization?

Well, not that it matters, but I believe the Woodsworth-Irvine Socialist Fellowship is still an affiliated organization. The point is that there is nothing that prevents any group from affiliating with the NDP, provided that, as a group, they support the party's principles and agree to abide by the party's constitution. So, even if every last affiliate were a labour union / local, and even if every affiliate in the party's history had been a labour union local, that wouldn't change the fact that there is nothing preventing non-labour organizations from affiliating. FWIW, one of the affiliates of the UK Labour Party is the Christian Socialist Fellowship.

Thanks. I'd forgotten about Woodsworth-Irvine. I made the point in another thread that the only thing preventing some non-labour organizations from becoming affiliates is is a real (charitable status perhaps) or perceived need to remain non-partisan. Similarly some labour unions.


knownothing
Offline
Joined: Mar 24 2011

nicky wrote:

Layton letter not intended to block Mulcair: Chow



Read more: http://www.canada.com/Layton+letter+intended+block+Mulcair+Chow/5360779/story.html#ixzz1XE1BJePT

 

Incidentally, what did Day say?

 

Brad Lavigne got him right worked up in a frenzy and then Day said, " the NDP will never hold Quebec and unless they elect Mulcair leader they will be in big trouble!"


Bill Davis
Offline
Joined: May 20 2010

So because I find Libby somewhat indecisive I'm the misogynist (while recommending another women for leadership),

but what it's ok for Mulcair to call Yves Duhaime a Péquiste slut?

This is foolishness. I thought it was widely recognized that Mulclair was to the right of the party, hence him and Libby as co-deputy leaders to appease both ends of the spectrum.

He vehemently defends Israeli apartheid and has attacked Libby over it. He server in Jean Charest's cabinet for christ sakes. Sure he got the boot, and some say it's over the fact he was too green for them, but it's not so simple as that. He was a minister in the government that really brought neo-liberalism to Quebec. Granted the PQ were going down that road before 03, but Charest's government was a whole new push.

 

 


Howard
Offline
Joined: Aug 31 2011

You know who else was a Québec Liberal and went to McGill around the same time as Mulcair: Jack Layton.

What's worse, Jack Layton's father was a Mulroneyite, he comes from a family of Duplessistes, and he is from the plutocratic anglo suburbs of Montréal where he grew up at an anglo-only yacht club. We must stop this monster from becoming leader of the NDP...oh wait.

Not to stifle people's airings of legitimate concerns, but let's give every potential candidate a listen, they deserve an opportunity to speak for themselves.

Mulcair grew up in a humble family, he worked with many Federal NDPers in provincial Liberal roles in the National Assembly. He is a fan of Claude Ryan and a descendent of Honoré Mercier. Most of Québec believes he quit cabinet (was Environment Minister) over a shady deal to privatise and commercially exploit a provincial park. He toughed it out as an anglophone in the almost francophone-only Québec public service, and this as a person with a clear-as-day anglo accent. He has successfully put forward many nationalist proposals to defend the French language and he has fought fiercely against separation. He was born in Ontario to bicultural family.

Libby Davies is the most famous leftist in the NDP caucus. She is widely respected. She is a champion of unpopular but important causes and has a big heart, just like Jack Layton. If she had taken the time to learn French, she would be a leading contender, no doubt. Just look at how popular Svend Robinson was in Québec. Svend and Libby have/had very similar views, but Svend was bilingual and could take his message on the road in a way Libby can't.


Howard
Offline
Joined: Aug 31 2011

You know who else was a Québec Liberal and went to McGill around the same time as Mulcair: Jack Layton.

What's worse, Jack Layton's father was a Mulroneyite, he comes from a family of Duplessistes, and he is from the plutocratic anglo suburbs of Montréal where he grew up at an anglo-only yacht club. We must stop this monster from becoming leader of the NDP...oh wait.

Not to stifle people's airings of legitimate concerns, but let's give every potential candidate a listen, they deserve an opportunity to speak for themselves.

Mulcair grew up in a humble family, he worked with many Federal NDPers in provincial Liberal roles in the National Assembly. He is a fan of Claude Ryan and a descendent of Honoré Mercier. Most of Québec believes he quit cabinet (was Environment Minister) over a shady deal to privatise and commercially exploit a provincial park. He toughed it out as an anglophone in the almost francophone-only Québec public service, and this as a person with a clear-as-day anglo accent. He has successfully put forward many nationalist proposals to defend the French language and he has fought fiercely against separation. He was born in Ontario to bicultural family.

Libby Davies is the most famous leftist in the NDP caucus. She is widely respected. She is a champion of unpopular but important causes and has a big heart, just like Jack Layton. If she had taken the time to learn French, she would be a leading contender, no doubt. Just look at how popular Svend Robinson was in Québec. Svend and Libby have/had very similar views, but Svend was bilingual and could take his message on the road in a way Libby can't.


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or register to post comments