babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
I'm not sure how a question directly related to the OP and the thread title can be considered changing the subject, but if you don't want to answer my question, you only have to say so.
Caveat three: Offering a sociological perspective is not a way of excusing those men who were rioting. They need to be held accountable for their actions. What I'm suggesting is that, in addition to accountability, social pressures on boys and men to be tough and aggressive are also a factor. For instance, consider the power of insults that are slung at boys and men who do not live up to social expectations of masculinity: "pussy," "fag" and "queer" are entirely predictable verbal responses. They are homophobic in nature and endemic in schools, media and broader society.
Yeaah, these bozos wanted to prove their virility by breaking plate glass windows. They thought that by lighting garbage cans on fire they would prove how tough they are.
Mind you, one never hears of riots following poor performances at Broadway shows.
Some leftist ideologues have asserted that the riot was the result of alcohol, that the youth were simply middle-class kids acting out, while others have described it as being comprised of predominantly young white males. These allegations are used to show that the riot was without political consciousness or rationale, that it “wasn't political.” This is similar to the uptight citizen's dismissal of the rioters as not being genuine members of the body politic. It also appears to be predominantly voiced by those who weren't present in the zone of conflict, and whose perception of it is warped by corporate media coverage.
The composition and sheer size of the crowds involved in rioting were in fact highly political. The vast majority of youth I observed in the rioting were from the most oppressed socio-economic classes, with large numbers of people of colour participating, including Asian, East Indian, Native, and black. This ethnic mix is in fact very indicative of Greater Vancouver in general, representing also the most economically depressed elements of the population overall.
Middle class kids? It's difficult to assess the actual economic status of these youth, but most weren't wearing $200 Canucks jerseys. Looking at the countless photos and video footage, my estimation is that the rioters were predominantly working class kids.
Most of those in the streets were definitely enjoying the euphoria of liberation they were experiencing, and most were clearly hostile to police (the most common chant being “Fuck the Police”). These experiences have political ramifications, as the authorities well know. While there were those who could be described as anti-social elements (i.e., the brawls and fist fights between fans), there were also those participating who clearly saw it as a form of rebellion.
Quote:
Certainly the extent of looting, far more than in 1994, has political meaning. The desire to accumulate material possessions may very well have been a motivating factor in looting, considering the scale of advertising. But what really stands out is the sheer disregard for established authority and the mass violation of one of Western society's most sacred institutions: property rights. Nor was it simply illegal consumerism gone wild; many looters were throwing merchandise out windows for those on the street to gather (re-distributing or destroying wealth, the anti-thesis of consumerism). These youth did not give a fuck about law and order, and there are indeed profound political implications in this as well, one that greatly disturbs the capitalist ruling class (proof of which can be seen in their hysterical responses to the riot).
Also, Jim Chu is doing some backpedaling now that his initial claims about "anarchists and criminals" are falling apart.
During Vancouver's Stanley Cup riot, Camille Cacnio entered a formal wear shop smashed up by rioters and took two pairs of dress pants.
Since then, the UBC biology student has lost her job, turned herself in to the police, and become the target of racism and harassment online.
Cacnio says she loves Vancouver, never intended to participate in a riot, and found it difficult to foresee the consequences of her actions.
And she argues that people who are using social media to ruin the lives of riot participants—even going as far as shaming their families and the organizations they've been associated with—are going way too far.
Quote:
I honestly think that the reason why people are so strongly targeting people like me is because people are upset. They are drunk off of emotions, and want to do everything they can to fix their city. I completely understand that and like I said, am not proud of myself! Collaborating to clean up the city? Excellent way to remediate the mess. IDing people? Very helpful for the VPD – saves time and money for the cops and in the end for our city. Harassing people, ruining their lives, and finding unlawful punishments? Not at all helpful. It gives the cops more things to deal with, and is in a way a form of anarchy. The laws were made for everybody to follow: criminals and spectators alike. So for you to disregard the laws makes it seem like you are an anarchist…starting a mob…based on social media…starting to get the picture yet?
There is another important difference between the Stasi and the Vancouver Police: Stasi informants and spies stayed undercover and they were paid in a climate of economic hardship. In Vancouver, the informants operate in broad daylight and do it for free.
Certainly the extent of looting, far more than in 1994, has political meaning. The desire to accumulate material possessions may very well have been a motivating factor in looting, considering the scale of advertising. But what really stands out is the sheer disregard for established authority and the mass violation of one of Western society's most sacred institutions: property rights.....These youth did not give a fuck about law and order, and there are indeed profound political implications in this as well, one that greatly disturbs the capitalist ruling class (proof of which can be seen in their hysterical responses to the riot).
Would that it were. Although the article attempts to conform to a predetermined narrative that I'm not entirely unsympathetic to, I'm afraid the entrenched stasis with respect to political activism in this country runs so deep, as to require the examination of additional instances of wanton disregard for authority and property on a similar or greater scale in order to draw the necessary political correlations. This has all the appearance of a fun night out for most involved, which is not to suggest that there weren't a few among them channeling some fire and haze induced euphoria along the lines suggested in the article. A few doesn't turn Vancouver 2011 into the Paris of 2005 though.
I don't think that stating the rioting "has political meaning" is meant to deny that there were myriad factors at play, or that politics was foremost in people's minds as they smashed, looted, and burned.
I simply do not get how people can be fired for their alleged actions and as for people turning them in, or threatening and other abuse seems pretty fucking hyprocritical, at best. They show themselves to be just another mob benton mob violence itself.
I don't doubt that it has SOME meaning, and a loaf of bread (or a stolen TV) can be political in the right circumstances.
It is a different matter to take an event witn myriad factors and spin it as justification for whatever political line you are pushing. And that goes equally for those who are blaming this on "anarchists" as those who are hailing it as disaffected working class people liberating themselves.
(though it seems to me there;s not that much difference between those two extreme positions, the main difference being whether one thinks burning, vandalism and theft are good things or not).
{joke} Or hey, maybe it was drunken rich white guys liberating themselves from their social constraints. That's a good thing too, right? {/joke}
I honestly think that the reason why people are so strongly targeting people like me is because people are upset. They are drunk off of emotions, and want to do everything they can to fix their city. I completely understand that and like I said, am not proud of myself! Collaborating to clean up the city? Excellent way to remediate the mess. IDing people? Very helpful for the VPD – saves time and money for the cops and in the end for our city. Harassing people, ruining their lives, and finding unlawful punishments? Not at all helpful. It gives the cops more things to deal with, and is in a way a form of anarchy. The laws were made for everybody to follow: criminals and spectators alike. So for you to disregard the laws makes it seem like you are an anarchist…starting a mob…based on social media…starting to get the picture yet?
I went to that link and that quoted text isn't there. Did you intend to link to a different site?
The second halt-hour of CBC The Current (9 am) has a piece on the riot, and includes an interview with two people who have set up sites dedicated to identifying people who were in the crowd that night.
I went to that link and that quoted text isn't there. Did you intend to link to a different site?
Whoops. babble's state-of-the-art posting technology put the link in the wrong place. The quoted text is from the first article (where I also got the link to her apology).
I went to that link and that quoted text isn't there. Did you intend to link to a different site?
That same quote also appeared in the first link of post #36.
In her blog, Camille references her "original apology", so it sounds like she felt compelled to issue another apology that didn't include any reference to the bullying behaviour of the social media vigilantes.
I went to that link and that quoted text isn't there. Did you intend to link to a different site?
Whoops. babble's state-of-the-art posting technology put the link in the wrong place. The quoted text is from the first article (where I also got the link to her apology).
Ah, okay. It would have helped if I had looked at the first link as well!
Speaking of apologies, I heard that polo player doing his weepy, gag-inducing mea culpa on CBC this morning. Awww.... poor him. It was a perfect Jerry Springer moment.
One of the dark sides of vigilante justice and public shaming that hasn't been mentioned is that I think some of these self-centered buffoons actually get off on the embarrassment and the attention.
After all, the people who drop their drawers on those reality TV shows come from somewhere, don't they?
Vancouver officials were more concerned with striking Canada Post workers than any potential violence in the hours leading up to the Stanley Cup riot, documents released by the city reveal.
The hatred of workers trumps any realistic assessment of what might have happened, given the events of 1994, and begs the question: why don't more workers hate the boss? Why?!
Vancouver police say they plan to serve warrants on local media outlets to collect video footage from the Stanley Cup riot earlier this year.
The warrants - also known as production orders - include the CBC, The Vancouver Sun, The Province, The Globe and Mail, Global TV and CTV.
"This is an important step in the investigation to ensure all images are collected and rioters held accountable," said Insp. Les Yeo in a statement released on Wednesday morning.
Meanwhile, police say they continue to make progress analysing more than 1,600 hours of video evidence collected since the June 15 riot.
There are only so many resources to go around. In BC it is becoming almost routine to have criminal cases thrown out because of lengthy delays. To bad about all the missing women. But then there was the 6 year investigation into the BC Rail affair. Priorities, priorities.
I'm not sure how a question directly related to the OP and the thread title can be considered changing the subject, but if you don't want to answer my question, you only have to say so.
Norms of masculinity at root of riot: Hooligans are a factor, but so is society's expectations of young men to be aggressive and tough
Oh please.
Yeaah, these bozos wanted to prove their virility by breaking plate glass windows. They thought that by lighting garbage cans on fire they would prove how tough they are.
Mind you, one never hears of riots following poor performances at Broadway shows.
I think they were simply waiting outside for something to be happy about in Liberal B.C. and were disappointed. Again.
So when will Vancouver be hosting a G20 meeting?
Vancouver Media Co-op: Aftermath of Canucks Riot
Also, Jim Chu is doing some backpedaling now that his initial claims about "anarchists and criminals" are falling apart.
Vancouver police shift blame for riot
UBC student apologizes for role in Vancouver riot, criticizes social media mob
Dear Vancouver, I am sorry.
There is another important difference between the Stasi and the Vancouver Police: Stasi informants and spies stayed undercover and they were paid in a climate of economic hardship. In Vancouver, the informants operate in broad daylight and do it for free.
Would that it were. Although the article attempts to conform to a predetermined narrative that I'm not entirely unsympathetic to, I'm afraid the entrenched stasis with respect to political activism in this country runs so deep, as to require the examination of additional instances of wanton disregard for authority and property on a similar or greater scale in order to draw the necessary political correlations. This has all the appearance of a fun night out for most involved, which is not to suggest that there weren't a few among them channeling some fire and haze induced euphoria along the lines suggested in the article. A few doesn't turn Vancouver 2011 into the Paris of 2005 though.
I don't think that stating the rioting "has political meaning" is meant to deny that there were myriad factors at play, or that politics was foremost in people's minds as they smashed, looted, and burned.
I simply do not get how people can be fired for their alleged actions and as for people turning them in, or threatening and other abuse seems pretty fucking hyprocritical, at best. They show themselves to be just another mob benton mob violence itself.
There may be a few wrongful dismissal case when this all sorts itself out.
Vigilante behaviour is probably as old as recorded history and beyond.
I don't doubt that it has SOME meaning, and a loaf of bread (or a stolen TV) can be political in the right circumstances.
It is a different matter to take an event witn myriad factors and spin it as justification for whatever political line you are pushing. And that goes equally for those who are blaming this on "anarchists" as those who are hailing it as disaffected working class people liberating themselves.
(though it seems to me there;s not that much difference between those two extreme positions, the main difference being whether one thinks burning, vandalism and theft are good things or not).
{joke} Or hey, maybe it was drunken rich white guys liberating themselves from their social constraints. That's a good thing too, right? {/joke}
I went to that link and that quoted text isn't there. Did you intend to link to a different site?
The second halt-hour of CBC The Current (9 am) has a piece on the riot, and includes an interview with two people who have set up sites dedicated to identifying people who were in the crowd that night.
Whoops. babble's state-of-the-art posting technology put the link in the wrong place. The quoted text is from the first article (where I also got the link to her apology).
That same quote also appeared in the first link of post #36.
In her blog, Camille references her "original apology", so it sounds like she felt compelled to issue another apology that didn't include any reference to the bullying behaviour of the social media vigilantes.
Ah, okay. It would have helped if I had looked at the first link as well!
I thought what she wrote was quite good.
Speaking of apologies, I heard that polo player doing his weepy, gag-inducing mea culpa on CBC this morning. Awww.... poor him. It was a perfect Jerry Springer moment.
One of the dark sides of vigilante justice and public shaming that hasn't been mentioned is that I think some of these self-centered buffoons actually get off on the embarrassment and the attention.
After all, the people who drop their drawers on those reality TV shows come from somewhere, don't they?
Television has been cultivating a couple of things lately in a big way:
1) getting "free" services from fools willing to work for practically nothing on the off chance (none really) that it will lead to better things, and
2) larding on heaping doses of programs intended to evoke the strongest schadenfreude (pleasure from the misfortune of others) possible.
Some days, turn on the idiot box and the majority of what you see falls into category 2.
CBC link
The hatred of workers trumps any realistic assessment of what might have happened, given the events of 1994, and begs the question: why don't more workers hate the boss? Why?!
Vancouver police say they plan to serve warrants on local media outlets to collect video footage from the Stanley Cup riot earlier this year.
The warrants - also known as production orders - include the CBC, The Vancouver Sun, The Province, The Globe and Mail, Global TV and CTV.
"This is an important step in the investigation to ensure all images are collected and rioters held accountable," said Insp. Les Yeo in a statement released on Wednesday morning.
Meanwhile, police say they continue to make progress analysing more than 1,600 hours of video evidence collected since the June 15 riot.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/09/28/bc-vanco...There are only so many resources to go around. In BC it is becoming almost routine to have criminal cases thrown out because of lengthy delays. To bad about all the missing women. But then there was the 6 year investigation into the BC Rail affair. Priorities, priorities.
What a stupid circus act.