Ontario 2011 election campaign 5
Comments
I have argued for a long time that the weakness with the Green party is the failure to recognize the direct link between social sustainability and environmental sustainability.
In a world that is this unequal in wealth it is impossible to move toward an enviromentally sustainable future. The reason is basic: inequality creates waste. In a world where growth is unsustainable and sacrifice is essential you can't just cut everyone back the same amount because you will create mass social chaos, lack social acceptance of measures. You cannot ignore the waste created by inequality. Those with more will continue to waste and can afford to even as energy becomes scarce and expensive. Less well off will suffer to the point where they have nothing to lose. Both will fight back.
If this planet does not address social inequality quickly then environmental security will be impossible. Suzuki and many others are tryign to end-run social equality in order to go after policies that simply cannot happen without it.
While the NDP has definite weaknesses on enviro policy, it is the only party that understands this connection.
What we need is widespread education of the connection, a coordinated move towards both social equality and environmental sustainability.
BTW: Even though I think its a total fabrication on the part of the Ontario Liberals - every time the OLP attacks the NDP for not being environmentalist ENOUGH and for having "betrayed" David Suzuki - it probably actually HELPS the NDP win seats in northern Ontario!
Meanwhile every poll that asks people which party they trust most on the environment still puts the NDP way ahead of the Liberals.
(scroll down to page 13)
Best party to deal with protecting the environment: Green 52%, Liberal 22%, NDP 19%, PC 8%
All Voters: Lib 37.7%, PC 31.5%, NDP 23.3%, Green 5.9%, Others 1.6%
Likely Voters: Lib 38.6%, PC 34.0%, NDP 21.1%, Green 5.2%, Others 1.1%
Stockholm wrote:Meanwhile every poll that asks people which party they trust most on the environment still puts the NDP way ahead of the Liberals.
(scroll down to page 13)
Best party to deal with protecting the environment: Green 52%, Liberal 22%, NDP 19%, PC 8%
The problem is that when you include the Green party in the question, the results become totally useless because most people assume that a single issue party that is about the environment and nothing else will invariably be the best party to deal with the environment. Imagine if we had a party called the "Tax Cut Party" and we asked people "which party will do the best job of cutting taxes? The Liberals, Conservatives, NDP or the Tax Cut Party?" - what do you thik the answer would be?
I have seen many other polls where if you ask people about which of the three real parties is best on the envronment and you don't give people the easy way out by offering Green as an option - the NDP wins hands down and most people who would say Green still think the NDP is better than the Liberals
But party that does not believe in government intervention -- Ontario Greens -- have taken themselves out of the equation.
I wish that I could convince more people of this essential connection between social equality and enviro sustainability because that would expose the lie behind the Green environmental positions at the same time as showing the way forward.
I have seen many other polls where if you ask people about which of the three real parties is best on the envronment and you don't give people the easy way out by offering Green as an option - the NDP wins hands down and most people who would say Green still think the NDP is better than the Liberals.
Have you seen any of these polls during the past month? The Liberals are trying to steal the environmental vote away from the NDP and Greens by touting their 'Green Energy' agenda every chance they get. I haven't seen any polls recently to see if it is working.
Stockholm wrote:I have seen many other polls where if you ask people about which of the three real parties is best on the envronment and you don't give people the easy way out by offering Green as an option - the NDP wins hands down and most people who would say Green still think the NDP is better than the Liberals.Have you seen any of these polls during the past month? The Liberals are trying to steal the environmental vote away from the NDP and Greens by touting their 'Green Energy' agenda every chance they get. I haven't seen any polls recently to see if it is working.
I think it's partly why the Liberals have come back since the election started. They were really pushing Green Energy in the weeks leading up to their campaign platform launch too, and that's when their fortunes started turning around.
Also gave the Liberals a bit of a wedge issue against Hudak who basically looks like he's living in the dark ages for actively opposing green energy. The average person isn't sure if the Liberals have gone far enough, whether the way they've gone about it is the right way, etc, but in my view most people intuitively think that green energy is a good thing (other than a few pockets of people who don't like windmills).
I really hope McGuinty doesn't weasel out a slim majority, as it will be quite depressing, especially with the NDP polling around 25%. FPTP makes a mockery of the vote.
If it's a Liberal minority, it will provide a tremendous opportunity for Horwath/the NDP to have a much larger profile in the provincial media and for the voters to get much more acquainted with her. Certainly that will provide a much stronger platform for the NDP in the next provincial election.
Maybe the Tory meltdown will continue and the NDP will become official opposition to a Liberal majority government!
Assuming you believe some of the more outrageous polls (which presumably both OnTheLeft and Stockholm do), one possibility that hasn't been mentioned here yet is a Liberal minority with the NDP as Official Opposition. This would, of course, make Hudak the kingmaker, not Horwath.
Hudak could demand the resignation of McGuinty before negotiating with the Liberals (somewhat like what the socialist Lib-Dems demanded from the Labour Party in the last UK election -- "no negotiation with Labour until Brown resigns as leader.")
Or, even more bizarre ... just imagine a socialist "Premier Horwath" kowtowing to far right Hudak's Conservatives to prop her government up. (Just think of all those lovely demands those PCs would force onto the NDP -- no tax hikes, bye-bye 'Clean Energy Act' to name but two ...)
I think it's partly why the Liberals have come back since the election started. They were really pushing Green Energy in the weeks leading up to their campaign platform launch too, and that's when their fortunes started turning around.
I think that the Liberals did well by using green energy as a wedge issue against the Tories and I think it was a big loser among swing voters for Hudak to let himself be depicted as being anti-green energy. its like being against motherhood! But I don't think that the Liberals ever succeeded in making the average person think that the NDP was "not environmentalist enough". Usually the knock against the NDP is that its a party of impracticle tree-huggers - so if anything putting out the message that the NDP was not doing EVERYTHING that David Suzuki demands - probably actually makes the NDP look more palatable to the average voter.
All of that being said - there are about 3% (at most) of voters who actually care that much about environmental issues. Its very rarely a vote determining issue.
Assuming you believe some of the more outrageous polls (which presumably both OnTheLeft and Stockholm do),
I don't.
But you're presuming that I do.
Or, even more bizarre ... just imagine a socialist "Premier Horwath" kowtowing to far right Hudak's Conservatives to prop her government up. (Just think of all those lovely demands those PCs would force onto the NDP -- no tax hikes, bye-bye 'Clean Energy Act' to name but two ...)
Keep dreaming.
Andrea has been doing momentum rallies all day. I never even asked how many she had done before Oshawa. Her busses pulled in around 6:15pm and pulled out around 7:00pm, on their way to Scarborough Southwest, ending with Scarborough Rouge River. She was pumped. So was the crowd. So was her team. Lots of adrenelin. No one looked tired, somehow. Huge turnout for the cameras. All four Durham Region candidates and their teams, plus large numbers of ordinary campaign workers and autoworkers and everyone from Ed's sister-in-law Sharon on down. The Oshawa machine is in fine form. If Mike Shields doesn't win, it won't be for lack of effort.
Last night was amazing. Let's hope Mike Shields pulls through with a victory tonight!
So, were half-way through the day; anyone have word on how well the vote is being pulled? how well the feeling on the ground is in those target ridings that the NDP can pull through? Is there going to be a large venue for a Toronto victory party? (presumptunous eh lol)
Campaign's as over as this thread. Continue in this results thread here!
These people freaking out at Horwath are these sanctimonious middle class environmentalists from Toronto who are willing to create more misery for the working class to enforce their own environmental agenda. These "progressives" have thrown social class out the window. They would rather focus on the environment to comfort their middle class guilt.
Actually I completely agree with you this. I find most environmentalists are not at all aware of issues of poverty, and how many of their policy positions actually make poverty worse. Of course Peter Tabuns is one of those downtown environmentalists. We'll see if the NDP platform has any affect on his vote total.