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NDP Leadership 23

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dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

Topp in BC + Another Topp article (warning:contains slight media exaggeration)

Ruth-Ellen Brosseau (not an endorsement)

Mulcair Endorsements, Ravignat, and Pierre Jacob


Lachine Scot
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Joined: Jun 19 2010

dacckon wrote:

Supposedly(this is what i've heard on the internetz), you are officially a member and you can vote. BUT, you won't be getting a card for a long time.

Hm, interesting. I signed up after the election as well and never heard anything beyond that same e-mail Boom Boom describes.

I was starting to think that maybe I had imagined "joining"..


Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

theleftyinvestor wrote:

I'm a BC member if that's of any significance. I started receiving e-mails from the BCNDP leadership contenders shortly after I joined to vote in that race last January.

I never recieved Topp's message either. I would direct him to the 2000 election results. Jack did not start from 6%;  Alexa got 8.5% in that election. Even in the 1993 election our popular vote was 6.9%.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Just had a light go off inside my head - I'll take my request online to my new NDP MP. Laughing


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002
Idealistic Pragmatist wrote:

Huh. Did any other members not get Topp's mass mailing?

I didn't either, yet. Did anyone outside BC get it yet?


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002
Policywonk wrote:

I would direct him to the 2000 election results. Jack did not start from 6%;  Alexa got 8.5% in that election.

Topp is unlikely to have made such a mistake; so I assume we dropped in the polls from 8.5% to 6% at some point before Jack won the leadership. You'd expect Topp's website to explain this, though.

Malcolm
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Joined: Mar 14 2004

algomafalcon wrote:

 

I'm curious if anyone can remember if there have been any provincial NDP leadership contests where an unelected party staffer or organizer became leader? Actually, just asking the question, I am thinking there might be at least one situation where an organizer/staff member was elected leader. I'm thinking of Grant Notley, a former leader of the Alberta NDP. I believe he was a party organizer before he was elected leader of the Alberta NDP in 1968. But Grant had run twice for the NDP (1963 and 1968). And the other obvious point is that at the time, the Alberta NDP had no elected MLAs.

 

The most recent leadership race in New Brunswick would be much the same as that.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Vansterdam Kid wrote:

Is this the old unionist 'seniority' argument shining through or something?

Personal attack!!!

Cool

 


algomafalcon
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Joined: Oct 14 2011

Catchfire wrote:

I'd just like to remind babblers that the interest the NDP leadership race is going to incite across the NDP membership and elsewhere, will surely bring more people to babble to discuss it. It will make for a nasty and acrimonious discussion (not to mention a difficult job for the moderators) if more established or veteran babblers make insinuations or assumptions about new posters' motives. So: please welcome new babblers with grace and aplomb before you demolish their foolish arguments in favour of the weakest candidate in the race only a political naïf would consider supporting.

Ta!

That is rather nicely stated. And just to add to that, it is highly unlikely that anyone from the 1% elite is going to actually bother to register here, although I suppose there is always the possibility they might hire someone to do their bidding. ;-)

I think it is likely that long time disengaged persons may choose to join in the discussion and I hope that those who have been here for a long time don't consider that to be a bad thing. (I must add that the main reason I have joined this site is that it seems to be the main site which is discussing these issues.)


Aristotleded24
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Joined: May 24 2005

Stockholm wrote:
I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't go out of their way to meet Stockholm - is somehow not being serious about running

I'm thinking about heading down to Nathan Phillips Square on the weekend to announce my candidacy for leadership of the NDP. Would you like to meet for coffee beforehand?Wink


theleftyinvestor
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Joined: Jun 6 2008

dacckon wrote:

Maybe you have to subscribe at his website? I should as well get along to doing that with all the candidates.

I never subscribed anywhere other than giving my e-mail address to the BCNDP upon signup. But they all seem to have my e-mail address.

In the time since I joined, I've been contacted by the BCNDP communications officer, the leadership campaigns of Horgan, Farnworth, Simons and Dix, various personal endorsements from said campaigns, a targeted message from Dix to my provincial riding (as well as a targeted message from my MLA Jenny Kwan supporting Farnworth)... followed by an invitation to a Metro Vancouver Jack Layton rally, a call for volunteers on David Eby's Vancouver Point Grey campaign... a provincial riding newsletter, and a barrage of Stop HST e-mails. I've also gotten a few calls for donations from Jan O'Brien, the provincial secretary (the one in late August containing a footnote regarding condolences for Jack). And then this Topp e-mail was the first pertaining to the federal leadership.

Maybe the BCNDP is just very well-organized in terms of communication? Although it looks like my e-mail address was pulled by the Topp campaign onto their own listserv system rather than using the BCNDP's system. This is the first NDP e-mail I've received at that particular address that did not explicitly mention the BCNDP.


Vansterdam Kid
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Joined: Apr 15 2004

Unionist wrote:

Vansterdam Kid wrote:

Is this the old unionist 'seniority' argument shining through or something?

Personal attack!!!

Cool

 

Your arguments never get old.Smile


ottawaobserver
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Joined: Feb 24 2008

Speaking of jumping all over newly-joined Babble members, which I suppose some folks believe I did to Azana over comments she dug up from Mulcair during his time in Quebec City that were marshalled to argue he is anti-labour ...

I thought it might be worthwhile to dig up his speech on the June filibuster motion, because I remember at the time Peggy Nash tweeting that he had just given a barn-burner.

Here is the introduction and wrap up (and follow this link for the full thing). Tell me if it sounds anti-labour to you.

Thomas Mulcair in the House of Commons, June 23, 2011 wrote:

Mr. Thomas Mulcair (Outremont, NDP):      Mr. Speaker, sometimes debate influences a government's actions and also public perception.

     If Canadians initially had the impression that the Conservatives were a heartless and untrustworthy bunch who flouted human rights and freedoms, well, the government's actions are now giving credence to this perception.

     If there is one area where good faith must prevail, it is labour relations. The Supreme Court has told us that labour relations are guaranteed by the charter because they constitute a subset of our economic rights, our freedom of expression, and our freedom of association.

     What have we seen over recent weeks from this Conservative government? Why does Canadians' mistrust of the Conservatives now appear justified?

     Let us consider the government's concrete actions, and the response we have heard here today. To begin with, this is a crown corporation. The government owns the corporation on behalf of all Canadians, and it has the last word when it comes to what Canada Post Corporation does. Throughout the bargaining process-with the government on one side, and employees and their union representatives on the other-everything was going along swimmingly. There were a number of attempts by the employees-legitimately and according to their rights-to voice their point of view through rotating strikes, for example, which did not significantly affect service to the public.

     That was one way for the employees, who had the right to strike, to say that the bargaining process had gone off track, and to give us a sense of the steps they intended to take to make management see reason.

     What happened then? The very same Canada Post Corporation, owned by the government, locked out its own employees. They locked their doors, with the employees on the outside. The government, through one of its own bodies, a crown corporation, has shut its employees outside and is keeping them there. Then they turn around and look at the situation they just created and pretend to be surprised, saying, "For God's sake, this cannot go on like this. Look, these people have stopped working." That is how one of the Conservative backbenchers just put it.

    "We have to bring these people back to work".

    Those creeps, those things, as if they were not citizens endowed with all due rights, which they are exercising in a calm, practical way under legislation duly passed by the House of Commons. That is what we are talking about here. These are people who exercised a right guaranteed by legislation passed by this House. Not content just to trifle with this, showing their usual bad faith, the Conservatives are going so far today as to tell us that they are not only going to throw these people out but they are going to lock the doors and come up with a solution to the problem they just created themselves by throwing these people out. Special legislation will be passed to deprive them of their rights, even though those rights are guaranteed under the Charter and in legislation passed by the House of Commons.

     This is not a new way of doing things. My colleague from Vancouver East already showed us how the very same thing was done in 1997 by a Liberal government. It was very interesting the other day to hear certain leading lights of the Liberal Party pretending to be outraged by the tactics employed by the Conservatives when they are a carbon copy of Bill C-34 passed by a Liberal government in 1997.

     Governments change but the tactics remain the same. When it comes to showing respect for working people and their rights, what the Conservatives are doing is clearly in line with all the social and economic policies of the Conservative government. It is as if we were in the early 1980s, in the Reagan era with the air traffic controllers. What could be better for a government of the far right than to flex its muscles at the expense of working people, look at its Reform Party base and say, "Finally you can see why you supported us from the beginning. We will put working people in their place". The Conservatives will do that, even though the bad faith is as obvious as it is right now.

     It is the Conservatives who are imposing a lockout, bolting the door themselves, throwing everybody out, and saying how terrible it is that these people are not working anymore. But it is the Conservatives who locked them out, and now because they are not working any more, the Conservatives want special legislation to force them back to work. The funny thing is that the Conservatives are even going so far as to copy from the Liberals' legislation the part where the Liberals lowered the salary offers already on the table. Several of my colleagues, including the hon. member for Chicoutimi-Le Fjord, asked about this. But as we all heard, there was no answer.

    They cannot answer because this makes absolutely no sense. If the objective is to settle a dispute between an employer and its employees, they would have at least put on the table what the two parties had already agreed on. But no, the Conservatives are rubbing salt in the wounds of workers who were just locked out and telling them not only that they are the bad guys for getting locked out, but also that they are being punished and getting less than they managed to agree on with the employer. They are being told they should have been happy with the crumbs they had been offered. Now even the crumbs are being taken away, because they did not appreciate the fact that their employer is a good employer and they should have accepted whatever they were offered. So it is their fault.

....

    At the beginning of my speech, I said that the right to negotiate working conditions, the right to join forces with other workers to negotiate working conditions, and the right to collectively withdraw the offer of work in accordance with the law when the collective agreement has expired and all other conditions have been met are rights that are guaranteed under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms and recognized by courts across Canada.

    There was initially some indecision in this regard, particularly in terms of the RCMP's right to unionize, but all these issues are currently being upheld by the courts. These rights are a subset of the rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I am thinking of our freedom of association, our freedom to work with others to ensure that these same rights are respected and our freedom to speak out when those conditions are not met.

    The moment the government enters into the negotiations, a major conflict of interest is created. When that same government controls the employer and the tools through a majority government in the House, it is a complete conflict of interest. The basic obligation to demonstrate good faith in all negotiations is even more important when this clear conflict of interest exists.

    Rather than rising above the fray, the Conservative government is playing a shamelessly partisan game. That is why the New Democratic Party, which has always understood the role it plays in defending the rights of workers, will stand up and do everything in its power to stop this despicable and draconian bill from passing.

[emphasis added]

I went to this trouble not because I support Mulcair as leader at this stage, but because I want a fair and dispassionate consideration of all the leadership candidates. Dig up a couple of clippings if you like, but don't stop there in your research. There are a number of trade unionists in our Quebec caucus supporting Mulcair (and some not, or not yet). I'm assuming they wouldn't be doing so if they thought he was anti-labour.


ottawaobserver
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Joined: Feb 24 2008

As to the Topp email, I read in a story late tonight on the Globe and Mail website that it has so far gone to 30,000 of the party's members. There are at least some mechanics involved in distributing very large bulk emails, so I'm hoping that it's just a function of the time it takes to get these things fully distributed, or some issue with the party being able to make those email addresses all available.


AnonymousMouse
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Joined: Sep 19 2011

Wilf Day wrote:
Policywonk wrote:

I would direct him to the 2000 election results. Jack did not start from 6%;  Alexa got 8.5% in that election.

Topp is unlikely to have made such a mistake; so I assume we dropped in the polls from 8.5% to 6% at some point before Jack won the leadership. You'd expect Topp's website to explain this, though.

We were in the low teens in the polls when Jack Layton became leader.

Gaian
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Joined: Aug 5 2011
OO: "Speaking of jumping all over newly-joined Babble members, which I suppose some folks believe I did to Azana over comments she dug up from Mulcair during his time in Quebec City that were marshalled to argue he is anti-labour ..." Gaian: "I watched CPAC for more than a day as young New Democrat MPs and old, right across all of the ridings, stood in Parliament and argued passionately regarding the unfairness of a government that would allow the locking out of postal workers and then denial of their bargaining rights" Thanks for that extract OO. I'd missed him, but had to sleep sometime during the filibuster. You were not unfair, just demanding of fairness.

Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

AnonymousMouse wrote:

Wilf Day wrote:
Policywonk wrote:

I would direct him to the 2000 election results. Jack did not start from 6%;  Alexa got 8.5% in that election.

Topp is unlikely to have made such a mistake; so I assume we dropped in the polls from 8.5% to 6% at some point before Jack won the leadership. You'd expect Topp's website to explain this, though.

We were in the low teens in the polls when Jack Layton became leader.

That's what I remember too.


KenS
Online
Joined: Aug 6 2001

Somewhere upthread [or another thread?] there was the question of whether there is precedent of backroom to front room for someone who became leader of a section, and the recent one of Dominic Cardy as NBNDP Leader was mentioned.

First thing that came to mind was that job has been pretty much available to anyone who is willing to take it on.

But when thinking about the question...

Dominic Cardy is a friend. And back when we had few elected members in Nova Scotia, Dominic always saw himself as running for office himself. I wouldn't say he just fell into being an organizer and the backrooms... but that was what was there, and he did it well. And one thing leads to another, and then an organization from outside electoral politics sees your talents and hires you, so thats your day job. Then another, and....

 


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

A little history b/w Topp and Rae
Martin Singh and the need for more innovation in Canada
Speech by Dominic Cardy and Lorne Nystrom

Edit: Not sure if this Saganash story was posted or not


KenS
Online
Joined: Aug 6 2001

rabble.ca to host interactive forum with Libby Davies on the NDP leadership race

 

This has been on Rabble for at least a couple days, but I didnt see it.

 

Its going to be interesting how Libby handles the pace of the discussion- which I'm sure will move faster than she can think, let alone type.

 

Which may be true for any of us trying to both follow and speak.

 


Idealistic Prag...
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Joined: Aug 29 2011

Stockholm wrote:

One thing about Mulcair - for a guy who was supposedly angling for the leadership - it seems to be that he has never really gone out of his way up to now to be visible among New Democrats outside of Quebec. I don't see him having any presence on facebook or twitter, I have never heard of him speaking at NDP gatherings outside Quebec. I never hear about him campaigning for the NDP in provincial elections. I go to a lot of NDP social events and conventions and Mulcair is never "present". In fact he is the only person running (along with Saganash) for leader who i have never so much as shaken hands with. If i didn't know any better i would think he was a bit reclusive.

Yeah, I feel similarly. He's the only current leadership candidate who's not at the Alberta provincial convention this weekend, for example. Heck, even Niki Ashton is there, and she's not even a candidate (yet).

Now, I'm not paranoid enough to think this is a deliberate snub; he almost certainly had something else planned for that night at the point he was invited. And I'm sure he'll reach out to the (surprisingly-not-small) Alberta membership in another way soon. But the optics aren't good, and you can bet there will be those who will remember that he was the only candidate who wasn't there.


ocsi
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Joined: Jan 14 2007

KenS wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

I don't think there need be any mystery as to why Mulcair didn't have a wider organization in place, especially outside of Quebec.  It comes down to four things.

......

4. Mulcair likely expected that HE would be the establishment candidate.  I certainly did.

True. I thought so too. There was not an establishement candidate for the whenever future, but it was reasonable for Mulcair to expect it would be him.

 

It would have been bad news for the NDP if Mulcair would have been the establishment candidate.  He would have just slipped into the job.  No real leadership contest.  No real debate.  No MSM exposure.  No free publicity.  No involvement by the membership.  And worst of all, Harper's team would have defined Mulcair before Mulcair could define himself.  Bad all around.

Now, if I was a strategist for the NDP entrusted with the job of getting the NDP to form the government after the next election, I would have insisted on a real, open, democratic leadership contest.  Hell, I would even throw my name in if it helped.

A leadership race means months of free publicity and (hopefully) thousands of memberships sold.  Canadians would be able to get to know the NDP much better, etc..

So, I doubt there's an overarching hidden agenda here but we are in for a great contest.


Idealistic Prag...
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Joined: Aug 29 2011

ocsi wrote:

It would have been bad news for the NDP if Mulcair would have been the establishment candidate.  He would have just slipped into the job.  No real leadership contest.  No real debate.  No MSM exposure.  No free publicity.  No involvement by the membership.  And worst of all, Harper's team would have defined Mulcair before Mulcair could define himself.  Bad all around.

Now, if I was a strategist for the NDP entrusted with the job of getting the NDP to form the government after the next election, I would have insisted on a real, open, democratic leadership contest.  Hell, I would even throw my name in if it helped.

That was the first thing that occurred to me, too, when I found out Topp was running.

I don't think that was the only reason he chose to do so by any means, but I'm sure it was part of the consideration alongside all the other factors.


knownothing
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Joined: Mar 24 2011

Idealistic Pragmatist wrote:

ocsi wrote:

It would have been bad news for the NDP if Mulcair would have been the establishment candidate.  He would have just slipped into the job.  No real leadership contest.  No real debate.  No MSM exposure.  No free publicity.  No involvement by the membership.  And worst of all, Harper's team would have defined Mulcair before Mulcair could define himself.  Bad all around.

Now, if I was a strategist for the NDP entrusted with the job of getting the NDP to form the government after the next election, I would have insisted on a real, open, democratic leadership contest.  Hell, I would even throw my name in if it helped.

That was the first thing that occurred to me, too, when I found out Topp was running.

I don't think that was the only reason he chose to do so by any means, but I'm sure it was part of the consideration alongside all the other factors.

Yeah remember after Jack got sick and before Topp announced, everybody here talked about how bad it would be if Mulcair had a coronation. Well thanks to Topp that idea is out the window. Are you suggesting Topp's leadership candidacy is meant to avoid a Mulcair coronation? That sounds pretty selfless and conspiratorial. I think there is an actual power struggle going on.


ocsi
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Joined: Jan 14 2007

knownothing wrote:

Yeah remember after Jack got sick and before Topp announced, everybody here talked about how bad it would be if Mulcair had a coronation. Well thanks to Topp that idea is out the window. Are you suggesting Topp's leadership candidacy is meant to avoid a Mulcair coronation? That sounds pretty selfless and conspiratorial. I think there is an actual power struggle going on.

 

I don't know why Topp is in the leadership race.  But, because he's in, there's a real race.  I'm not convinced there would be a real race without him.  In any case, a Mulcair coronation would have looked as bad as an Ignatieff coronation.  And possible a similar result!


knownothing
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Joined: Mar 24 2011

I feel at a loss because I don't understand how the power structure of the party works. The party takes stances on issues that aren't settled at conventions or in federal caucus so who makes these decisions?

Is it the party president? Secretary to the Leader? Ed Broadbent? Unions? Can someone explain this to me?


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

http://xfer.ndp.ca/2011/2011-constitution/2011-06-CONSTITUTION-ENG.pdf

This lays out how the party functions, you should pay attention to parts such as the council, executives, and officers.

Why are you clueless? Its because there is no publized power struggle for these positions. Usually, people are put into these positions by landslides by delegates. This provides stability and calm as opposed to other socio-democratic parties who's left and centre flank begin tearing each other apart and trying to constantly capture party positions.


Idealistic Prag...
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Joined: Aug 29 2011

knownothing wrote:

Idealistic Pragmatist wrote:

ocsi wrote:

It would have been bad news for the NDP if Mulcair would have been the establishment candidate.  He would have just slipped into the job.  No real leadership contest.  No real debate.  No MSM exposure.  No free publicity.  No involvement by the membership.  And worst of all, Harper's team would have defined Mulcair before Mulcair could define himself.  Bad all around.

Now, if I was a strategist for the NDP entrusted with the job of getting the NDP to form the government after the next election, I would have insisted on a real, open, democratic leadership contest.  Hell, I would even throw my name in if it helped.

That was the first thing that occurred to me, too, when I found out Topp was running.

I don't think that was the only reason he chose to do so by any means, but I'm sure it was part of the consideration alongside all the other factors.

Yeah remember after Jack got sick and before Topp announced, everybody here talked about how bad it would be if Mulcair had a coronation. Well thanks to Topp that idea is out the window. Are you suggesting Topp's leadership candidacy is meant to avoid a Mulcair coronation? That sounds pretty selfless and conspiratorial. I think there is an actual power struggle going on.

If you read the words actually written by both ocsi and myself, you can see that neither of us is "suggesting" anything other than what we already wrote.

Of course there's a power struggle going on! It's a freaking leadership race! But that's not inconsistent with Topp also thinking it's better for the party if there's a real race so that the party can get lots of media attention and new members. No matter who wins, that's a good thing.


knownothing
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Joined: Mar 24 2011

dacckon wrote:

http://xfer.ndp.ca/2011/2011-constitution/2011-06-CONSTITUTION-ENG.pdf

This lays out how the party functions, you should pay attention to parts such as the council, executives, and officers.

Why are you clueless? Its because there is no publized power struggle for these positions. Usually, people are put into these positions by landslides by delegates. This provides stability and calm as opposed to other socio-democratic parties who's left and centre flank begin tearing each other apart and trying to constantly capture party positions.

Thanks


scott16
Online
Joined: Oct 15 2011

Yeah I'm a newbie but I have been reading rabble for over a year. I have had my membership card since I was 16. I live in Brampton. It took about a week or two.

 

Does anyone know each candidates position on welfare and disability support? (Like ODSP, etc.)

Also are there any candidates from Saskatchewan and/or the prairies?


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