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Space: What's out there III

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Fidel
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The Fabric of the Cosmos

Acclaimed physicist Brian Greene reveals a mind-boggling reality beneath the surface of our everyday world. Airing 11/2, 11/9, 11/16 and 11/23, at 9pm on PBS

PBS wrote:
"The Fabric of the Cosmos," a four-hour series based on the book by renowned physicist and author Brian Greene, takes us to the frontiers of physics to see how scientists are piecing together the most complete picture yet of space, time, and the universe. With each step, audiences will discover that just beneath the surface of our everyday experience lies a world we'd hardly recognize-a startling world far stranger and more wondrous than anyone expected.

Brian Greene is going to let you in on a secret: We've all been deceived. Our perceptions of time and space have led us astray. Much of what we thought we knew about our universe-that the past has already happened and the future is yet to be, that space is just an empty void, that our universe is the only universe that exists-just might be wrong.


M. Spector
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Quote:
Roll out the red carpet! Earth is about to be visited by the largest close-approaching asteroid on record. Known as 2005 YU55, it comes closest to us on November 8th at 23:28 Universal Time (6:28 p.m. EST), when it passes 198,000 miles (319,000 km) from Earth's surface — closer than the Moon's orbit.

...Read more...


Fidel
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Search Resumes for Evidence of Life Out There

Quote:
Kepler 22b, as it is known, is 2.4 times the size of the Earth and about 600 light years from here. It takes 290 days to orbit its star, which is slightly smaller and dimmer than the Sun. Mr. Borucki said that if it had a reasonable atmosphere, the surface temperature on 22b would be about 72 degrees Fahrenheit, "a very pleasant temperature."

I think they are saying we'd need the natural resources of about three more earths to carry on with our currently unsustainable, post-cold war era economies.

So all we need to do is order up a super-sized planet like Kepler 22b. Keep looking, SETI -  there has to be a sale on somewhere out there. And tell'em we'll pay in U.S. dollars cash on the barrelhead.


sknguy II
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Fidel wrote:

So all we need to do is order up a super-sized planet like Kepler 22b. Keep looking, SETI -  there has to be a sale on somewhere out there. And tell'em we'll pay in U.S. dollars cash on the barrelhead.

I wonder that if humans were to run into a harmful lifeform would we go so far as to exterminate them for the sake of resource extraction? So many times in our past, and present, we've annihilated species simply through our exploitive activities. I doubt that there are conventions or treaties that deal with the treatment of... I don't want to say "new"... but life forms we haven't seen before.

Some of my Google searching returns references to international patenting laws. Gawd I hope Monsanto doesn't "do space"... or the Disney corp for that matter. This is an interesting article on sustainable exploration. But be warned, after about two minutes of reading, and without prompting, some goofy script redirects you to an Amazon.com page for a book titled "Human Mission to Mars". At least it does for me in Firefox.


Fidel
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sknguy II wrote:

Fidel wrote:

So all we need to do is order up a super-sized planet like Kepler 22b. Keep looking, SETI -  there has to be a sale on somewhere out there. And tell'em we'll pay in U.S. dollars cash on the barrelhead.

I wonder that if humans were to run into a harmful lifeform would we go so far as to exterminate them for the sake of resource extraction?

I'm not sure why we would go so far as to find a resource rich planet and destroy the life forms there for the purpose of resource extraction. I know it sounds probable based on the historical record of colonizations here. I think the space agencies are proposing to first visit asteroids and perhaps mine the wealth of metals and mineral resources carried around in those celestial bodies. But I think the farther away a planet or asteroid is, the less it makes sense to extract the resources to ship them back on long journeys to this planet. 

I think the plan for the future is to terraform a planet within the solar system, like Mars. Who would be the first colonial settlers to Mars? Who would volunteer for such an arduous and dangerous journey to what will surely be a life time of hard work, setbacks, and facing adversity? We might ask what the incentives were for Europeans to make long ocean crossings to the new world here in the Western hemisphere? Adventure is our middle name apparently.


Fidel
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How Neutrons Might Escape Into Another Universe The leap from our universe to another is theoretically possible, say physicists. And the technology to test the idea is available today

What's out there? Even more space apparently.


Mike Stirner
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Joined: Jul 25 2009

Untill you start exploring the mind and conciousness your missing out on most of the details.


NDPP
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Deadly Asteroid Bounds Towards Earth

http://rt.com/news/paint-asteroid-earth-nasa-767/

"To avert a new apocalypse - this time set for February 2013 - scientists suggest confronting asteroid 2012DA14 with either paint - or big guns. The tough part of either scenario is that time has long run out to build a spaceship for any operation. NASA confirms the 6- meter (197 feet) asteroid, spotted by Spanish stargazers in February, has a good chance of colliding with earth in 11 months..."


Bec.De.Corbin
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NDPP wrote:

Deadly Asteroid Bounds Towards Earth

http://rt.com/news/paint-asteroid-earth-nasa-767/

"To avert a new apocalypse - this time set for February 2013 - scientists suggest confronting asteroid 2012DA14 with either paint - or big guns. The tough part of either scenario is that time has long run out to build a spaceship for any operation. NASA confirms the 6- meter (197 feet) asteroid, spotted by Spanish stargazers in February, has a good chance of colliding with earth in 11 months..."

Asteroid 2012 DA14 definitely won't hit Earth. So why are people freaking out?

 

Quote:

 

The 150-foot-wide asteroid will pass within 17,000 miles (27,000 kilometers) of us next February. That's nearer than the orbits of some geosynchronous satellites, and the closest shave of a mid-size asteroid ever predicted before the flyby has actually occurred. But even so, NASA assures the world that there is no chance of 2012 DA14 hitting Earth next year. Zero, zip, zilch.

 

 

Gotta love RT news...


Fidel
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Mike Stirner wrote:

Untill you start exploring the mind and conciousness your missing out on most of the details.

 

Quote:
"All possible events, all conceivable variations on our lives must exist,..." "We live not in a single universe, but in a vast and rich "multiverse."

"I don't think there are any interpretations of quantum theory other than many worlds,..." "the others deny reality." -- David Deutsch, Oxford Physicist

I think that anything is possible.


macktheknife
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Fidel wrote:

I think that anything is possible.

So do I, but I wonder at what point "anything is possible" becomes a catchall for we don't know.  After all isn't our goal to determine not what is merely possible but what is probable? It is possible a giant bunny rabbit is contolling the universe, but how probable, provable, is it. To say something is ultimitely possible could be construed as a scientific cop out. Science is based on provable theories, not unprovable possibilities.

So, multiverses may sound exotic and exciting but they are simply, at this point, as much of a fantasy as God.


autoworker
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Klingons


macktheknife
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Jean Luc Picard?


sknguy II
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macktheknife wrote:

Fidel wrote:

I think that anything is possible.

...Science is based on provable theories, not unprovable possibilities.

In all fairness though, proveable theories would normally be the realm of the applied sciences, and anything else would likely be a gig in theorectical research.


Fidel
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macktheknife wrote:
So, multiverses may sound exotic and exciting but they are simply, at this point, as much of a fantasy as God.

 

I believe they are pretty serious about it. It's leading edge theoretical physics today. They think that that there is more to gravity than meets the eye. In fact, we can't see gravitational force only its affect on matter. Imagine that,  we can't see something with our eyes, and yet we believe.  

Parallel universes could explain a lot of what they have not been able to understand about this universe and estimating the total amount of matter within it. To their surprise the galaxies are recently measured to be expanding away from each other at an increasing rate not decelerating as previously thought. Astronomers have noticed that the contents of the universe are seemingly pulled in one direction at an accelerated rate, like the contents of a milk carton sloshing sideways. Something very large is out there at the edge of the universe and pulling this one toward it. Is it a larger and-or denser universe than this one?  Science text books have been rewritten and appended to an increased rate over the last few years. And they're not done. Far from it. Scientists suggest that several new laws of nature are waiting to be discovered.


sknguy II
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macktheknife wrote:

...To say something is ultimitely possible could be construed as a scientific cop out...

Well, to avoid a dynamic and changing universe Einstein injected the cosmological constant into his theory because he didn't want to beleive in an evolving unuverse... even though his own theory said it was possible.

But as an idea, multiverse is akin to the question is there life elsewhere in the universe. The possibility that there are other universes seems to outweigh the possibilitiy that there aren't. The conditions that allowed life to establish here on Earth are the same conditions that allowed our universe to exist. And asking whether life is unique to earth is like asking is our observable universe alone and unique?

The reason for asking is that the conditions which created our universe are very specific to our experience, like ours here on Earth, and are among other inumerable possiblities. The very slightest of changes in the force of dark energy (the stuff regulating the expansion of our universe) and the universe could be very different. The universe could slow and collapse into a big crunch, expand into a big-rip or could be so stong that matter couldn't exist. But in our case the universe is expanding, and accelerating, and at a specific rate. What made our universe so special among all the other possibilities?

This video is related to your concerns. It's of some prominent physicists/panelists offering arguements for and against a multiverse. A bit dry with a lot of shop talk but interesting.

Edit: In the video they present the number 10e+500 possible values for the cosmological constant. Keep in mind that Einstein's value kept the universe in a static state version of the universe.


Boom Boom
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Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

I wonder how many of Hitler's broadcasts they may have listened to before changing channels.

Earth is becoming quieter with the advent of direct satellite signals and digital over fiber, CATV, and line of sight microwave transmissions. We can imagine advanced civilizations will have gone quiet in the same way and perhaps a long time ago. Perhaps there are type III and IV civilizations which stopped being so noisy perhaps hundreds, thousands, or even millions of years ago.


sknguy II
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Joined: Apr 20 2009

Entanglement is where I'd put my money.


Fidel
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Cool video. That's right, space apparently is not a void and vacuum of utter nothingness. Space can be curved and undergo enormous distortions. Light is matter, too, and can be bent and redirected by gravity.

And it's said that in space no one eats ice cream. I find that hard to believe.


sknguy II
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Entanglement is Erwin Schrodinger's theory that Einstein famous called "spooky action at a distance". It's one of the mechanisms they are using for teleportation experiments. Researchers have successfully transported particles between two locations by the way. But the applications could be much broader in relating to anything that's transportable, specifically the information about something is what's transported/communicated. Scientists only know how it works right now, but not the why it works, so unfortunately it's still "spooky".


macktheknife
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Well, I hate to burst the multi-dimensional bubble but somebody already gave a party and no one showed.


Fidel
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Top comments: Sorry Hawking,I couldn't make it, I had important business to attend to. -John Titor."

---

What could possibly be more important than traveling to this point in the space-time continuum? I mean it's not like we aren't very technologically or culturally advanced. Today we have first past the post, socialism for bankers, economies based on war and aggression, and striped toothpaste. This is paradise, no? Surely this period in human history is more enticing to time travelers than, say, the stone age. It's like Mike Myers said in Austin Powers part whichever: We've got it all, ba-by, yeah! They don't know what they're missing. Or do they? 

Same with the aliens. Why do technically advanced species not come here and steal our energy reserves derived from dead plants? Here we are come get us! They could do an alien mind transplant of TransCanada Pipeline execs and build a conduit from here to Alpha Centauri if they rilly are superior beans. It makes no sense. Therefore they can not exist.


macktheknife
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But it`s Hawking! Do you not agree that he is one of our times most brilliant minds? If you wanted to visit an era, would you not want the opportunity to visit with Aristotle, Einstein, Copernicus, Hawking?

Seriously, if the argument is, and I`ve read the argument, that we are too uninteresting to bother with, I say pashaw. Stephen Hawking is one of our most brilliant scientific minds of OUR AGE. If I was alive in 3042 I would definitely have him on my most wanted to hang with list.


Fidel
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macktheknife wrote:

But it`s Hawking! Do you not agree that he is one of our times most brilliant minds? If you wanted to visit an era, would you not want the opportunity to visit with Aristotle, Einstein, Copernicus, Hawking?

Seriously, if the argument is, and I`ve read the argument, that we are too uninteresting to bother with, I say pashaw. Stephen Hawking is one of our most brilliant scientific minds of OUR AGE. If I was alive in 3042 I would definitely have him on my most wanted to hang with list.

What if, in the future, every other person has Einsteinian intelligence? Superhuman intelligence?

What if we are a dead end in human evolution? How interesting would we be to time travelers then? 

What if a species eventually survives/evolves from us that is non-biological or even a hybrid cyborgenetic species more robust and intelligent than modern man? 

What if striped toothpaste and fossil fuels from dead plant matter are just not on their travel itineraries? What if predatory and aggressive species like ourselves are a dime a dozen and, according to Carl Sagan et al, are destined to destroy ourselves in a fit of passion? What if highly evolved species aren't visiting us like we tend to avoid frequenting quarantine hospitals filled with people suffering incurable and infectious diseases?

I remember reading that the Queen and Philip of Greece were supposed to travel on the royal boat to a port near my hometown in northern Ontario. The towns folk spent a lot of money rennovating a hotel for the couple and paved streets for a royal visit that never took place. The grandiose  hotel became run down over the years and streets have since been paved over and widened. People died waiting for the Queen and her husband to visit. I think a few of them even began to question whether the Queen and Phil are real people.


macktheknife
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Fidel wrote:

What if, in the future, every other person has Einsteinian intelligence? Superhuman intelligence?

What if we are a dead end in human evolution? How interesting would we be to time travelers then?

What if a species eventually survives/evolves from us that is non-biological or even a hybrid cyborgenetic species more robust and intelligent than modern man?

What if striped toothpaste and fossil fuels from dead plant matter are just not on their travel itineraries? What if predatory and aggressive species like ourselves are a dime a dozen and, according to Carl Sagan et al, are destined to destroy ourselves in a fit of passion? What if highly evolved species aren't visiting us like we tend to avoid frequenting quarantine hospitals filled with people suffering incurable and infectious diseases?

I remember reading that the Queen and Philip of Greece were supposed to travel on the royal boat to a port near my hometown in northern Ontario. The towns folk spent a lot of money rennovating a hotel for the couple and paved streets for a royal visit that never took place. The grandiose  hotel became run down over the years and streets have since been paved over and widened. People died waiting for the Queen and her husband to visit. I think a few of them even began to question whether the Queen and Phil are real people.

I say humans are dumb as fuckin posts generally with a spattering of brilliance throughout history , with no change to that ratio in the present, so not much hope for the future that people will generally become so overloaded with knowledge that travelling back in time to meet Hawking would be boring.

If we had discovered multi-universes, time travel, worm holes, etc., someone surely would have arrived for a bit of a chat a t Stephen Hawkings party.


Fidel
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I think Hawking does not say that time travel is impossible only that it is not practical. It would require the energy of a star. 

I think that any civilization capable of harnessing the power of a star would consider us to be primitive and, therefore, not very interesting.

Sorry Stephen.

Why do future people not come here, to a parallel stream in the space-time continuum entirely, and say, Greetings! We come to give you trinkets and beads and high technology so advanced that you might possibly destroy yourselves faster and-or destroy other parts of your solar system more efficiently? Why not help us speed up the process of self-destruction? It makes no sense. 

If they hate us, like we surely hate them for snubbing us, then why don't they offer us the technology to destroy ourselves with? Or do we possess that capability already?


macktheknife
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Aw c`mon! Seriously? You wouldn`t wnat to have a beer with Plato or Angelo?  A time travelling possible future would undoubtedly include humans keen to experience, first hand, the ideas put forward by the great thinkers of a given time.


Fidel
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Plato was a clever guy, but I would not want to live in a world centrally planned by him. No I wouldn't. Not then or now.  It would be a hellish existence don't you think?

And, what if time travelers are all around us but invisible so as not to interract with us and thusly avoiding to alter the future and perhaps even destroying the future?

What if...?

What if UFO's are a kind of Darwinian time traveler from the future or even parallel worlds? What if they are von Neumann probes piloted by synthetic organisms/robots? I just blew your mind, Mac. You are now reeling from these strange and wondrous possibilities.


macktheknife
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Fidel wrote:

Plato was a clever guy, but I would not want to live in a world centrally planned by him. No I wouldn't. Not then or now.  It would be a hellish existence don't you think?

And, what if time travelers are all around us but invisible so as not to interract with us and thusly avoiding to alter the future and perhaps even destroying the future?

Well we don't have to LIVE in Plato's world, just visit. Perhaps no more than a sip of champagne and some polite converstaion.  But the second part of your assumption supposes people are uniformly in agreement about contact with people in the past. Our understanding of human nature makes this possibility laughable. No there would be unscrupulous individuals who would wish to capitalize on the past. That is for 100% certain.


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