NDP Leadership 53
Comments
Wells is saying that in Quebec, there is no dispute that the candidate who can hold the province for the NDP is Mulcair. Obviously there is some dispute, since a number of NDP MPs are supporting other candidates. But inside the province, among the talking heads, they all think it's Mulcair.
It goes against NDP tradition to ask leadership candidates to step off the soapbox and drop out, but I want the public to get a chance to know the next leader before they are elected and then defined (negatively) by the Conservatives.
WRT consolidating the gains in Quebec, I have never been convinced that the status quo is reasonably sustainable. While there have been exceptions, the usual aftermath of an out of nowhere sweep is significant erosion in the next election. Think the party's Atlantic seats post 97.
Certainl I'd work to retain every one of those seats and to gain a few more, but I'd hate to think that any potential leader - Mulcair included - would be stuck with an unreasonable benchmark for success like (just to pull a number from me arse) having to win 59 seats.
1st tier: Mulcair, Nash, Topp
2nd tier: Saganash, Ashton, Cullen
3rd tier: Dewar, Singh, Chisholm
Listen, If Topp had've stepped up to the plate and won a seat at any level for the NDP by now I bet tons of people would be supporting him but something, I don't know what, has stopped him from ever having done it and I'm pretty sure that is at least part of the reason why he got booed in Vancouver last Saturday.
While not having a seat is a liability for Topp, I don't see any evidence os "resentment" of him for that reason. I think the vast majority of NDPers acknowledge the great service he has done to the party behind the scenes. The booing you refer to I heard consisted of two people at most and it was essentially a "clac" by one of the other candidates.
While not having a seat is a liability for Topp, I don't see any evidence os "resentment" of him for that reason. I think the vast majority of NDPers acknowledge the great service he has done to the party behind the scenes. The booing you refer to I heard consisted of two people at most and it was essentially a "clac" by one of the other candidates.
I've wondered why Topp was such a latecomer to the elected politics game and then was pushed on the party so suddenly from above. He certainly doesn't look (or yet sound) the part. Even his "real world" experience is a pretty short skip and a jump from the NDP backroom. This is not to fault him for being a good servant to the party, but how much is his story going to resonate with the average Canadian? I'm also not 100% convinced that Topp will run for office if he doesn't get elected leader. He hasn't run to date and is still working on that connection with people, with very little time and tough circumstances under which to pull it off. Topp is smart though, so I would never count him out.
What does it mean to "look the part"? Looking like Willard "Mitt" Romney? Who knows if he would still run for a seat in 2015 if is is not leader. It an election that is almost four years away. Is there anything in Harper's "story" that is supposed to resonate with the average Cdn??
Pig you want to to talk about people skills (or lack thereof) look no further than Bob Rae. He can give a nice speech, but one on one he is just about the coldest, most aloof person I've met in my life.
Its a very good question why Topp did not run before. Not only do I not know the answer, I dont have anything I would rate as a good guess.
Here's some 'shreds' on that topic.
I dont think there are many people who do know the answer, and probably most of them are in his campaign. Its as likely as anything to be something mundane.
Topps role in the party was not really someone who does others' bidding. He had a very good gig in the Layton leadership circle. And the fact he was in and out of every day intense roles probably had a lot to do with how long he was central. When Chiefs of Staff left the position, they moved on and did not come back.
As much of a guess as I will make is the fact that it was a good gig had at least a lot to do with why he did not run for office and join Caucus- that would be rocking the boat. Not to mention that while his boys were growing up he was only gone a lot for stretches. Being in Caucus would have ended that, and anyone who sees what that is like stops to think.
All of that and probably much more that is specific and personal that no one could guess at.
The reason I think he will run for office even if he loses this is that he has now turned a page. It is unlikely he could go back to something close to the role he had. I suppose there are a couple of the possible leadership winners who might want him to do something similar. But after that [possible] inclination they would bump up against the chemistry with other people they want in senior roles. You don't ust mix and match people for that sort of thing- least of all in a new operation.
While if he joins Caucus, he has his own base, to do with what he will and can. Mind you, bit of a wrinkle having to wait 3 years for the chance to join Caucus. Anything could happen in that time. But I doubt he is rigorously reflecting on all the possible permutations if he doesnot win this.
I think its funny how persistent is this notion that Topp was pushed on the party by the establishment, like he was their tool. Or even seeing it as a joint effort. I have no idea how he put it together, or even a guess any more about how far back he has been thinking about doing this. But make no mistake: Brian Topp has the skills and the gumption to drive himself where he is. And the people who believe in Topp the most who have been around him are not doing that just based on ambition and moxie they see.
Agreed: that does not say whether he has what it takes to be Leader. But it is what it is.
The Leger poll of November 22 of 863 Quebecois showed the NDP at 37% (a drop of 6%) with the Bloc at 27% and the Liberals and Conservatives both at 15%. With a larger sample size and a track record of predicting 20 -22% support for the NDP in the fall of 2010 when national polls showing the NDP at 10-12% or even in single digits in Quebec at the same time, I place more trust in Leger than this poll. I have no doubt the NDP have dropped in popularity in Quebec and could drop even more in the future. However, I doubt we dropped 11% in less than a month at a time when we are not undergoing the intensity of an election campaign and there are no NDP scandals. I think we have to consider the consequences of not picking Mulcair carefully. I am not saying one should vote for him, as I have not even decided on that, but we need to take it into account.
I'm inclined to agree with Malcolm, and that our victory in May was more of a contingent fluke than was the Mulroney sweep. Not that it cannot be completely consolidated, and more added. But it is shaky gound, whoever is Leader.
But I also think these differing opinions do not matter. Pessimist or optimist starting point: we have to put our best foot forward in Quebec, and choice of Leader is a big part of that.
AnonymousMouse wrote:Shoon wrote:Wow, that got really mean, really fast. And not just Chisholm, Hampton too. I agree there is some chance of that Robert Chisholm's presence is being seen as an insult by some Quebecers (most of whom are not aware that historically plenty of people run for the leadership of the NDP without any intention of winning--maybe it would have helped to have a Socialist Caucus candidate this time), but we should all calm down about it. He will either improve his performace to date--enough that he is bringing something to the debate even if he can't speak French--or he'll drop out.If Chisholm's invitation is lost in the mail accidents happen. An aside as if being unligual wasn't bad enough, Chisholm has been endorsed by Howard Hampton, a man whose idea of good campaigning was trying nail jelly to a wall and worst yet Chisholm bragged about his endorsement. Look I like Hampton, a heart as big as his former riding and a great cabinate minister, but the man doesn't have the tactical sense the Gods gave a lemming. Best tactical decision he made was to let Andrea Horwath take over.

Wells:Quebec's not making it easier for the NDP to pick a leader
I dont think Wells puts the questions the same way we would. And his framed choices are all around dualistic. But he's not writing for us, and its a good piece anyway.
I say HDs Quebec numbers are a fluke, no other recent numbers show it, so until thier is a poll to confirm it that is how I'll view it.
That being said the major effect of this will not be on the 2015 campaign, it'll be now during this leadership race. This will drive those uncertain or leaning towards Mulcair into supporting him. This coupled with his compaign picking up speed could lead to a first ballet win. At the very least it will raise him up higher on many lists. I also suspect that it'll push the ndp into working harder in Quebec.
Also I see no evidence Mulcair is a centralist. He supports pharmacare I believe I read somewhere and of course his cap and trade is very expensive restructuring of the economy. That's screams lefty to me and most people.
This is also not his whole platform which I suspect will be released some time in early January.
As to the other hopeful Niki Ashton there was Paul Dewar article where she got tacked in on the end. She has a policy announcement soon on housing which include a plan make buying a home for young people more affordable. Again I suspect the other platforms to be fully out in January so I cauten patience. I think she may be cutting back on the new politics repetitiveness. Also does no one see the resemblence to Jack's campaign style, high energy, confidence, and a slogan that is unleashed often enough to incite drinking games around it. Next time Niki says working families, er that was her mentor, I mean New Politics, take a drink. Should make the next debate waaaayyyy more fun to watch.
Btw why does she on her face book page have picture of her with the directors of the wheat board. Holding a teddybear? I know she reprsents youthful energy, but still that a bit too far. Unless this is the future mascot for the NDP:) A Diabolical plan I admit.
Piece of advice for niki, exploit your Greek understanding to show a greater understanding of the Euro crisis
Pual Dewar, Martin Singh, and Chisholm are wasting peoples time, Quebecers have made it clear fluency in french is a prerequiste for thier votes, it simply is to late to aquire it. It doesn't have to be right now, but if they are not fluent by the next french debate then they should resign from the race so as to no longer humiliate the NDP and if they don't it will make it more difficult to test those that remain. Its a slap to the face, especially chisholm, to Quebecers. We failed to tolerate Dions flawed english and at least he spoke english, unlike chisholm. If Dewar and Singh can't hit above dion they don't belong in this race either. Even Nash and Cullen should go if they don't make the standard by the second french debate. oh and the debate should be longer. If I was Turmel I'd even offer a refund of thier 15,000 for those too silly to realize on thier own that full french skills were required.
I won't lie, ideally at this point I'd like this race become between those who has the requiste language skills, Mulcair, Ashton, Topp, Saganash, and maybe Nash. Otherwise the debates will suck, because those who can debate in french and english will lose time to those who can't or at least not acceptably.
Also would like to see a national tv campaign recruiting for the NDP, while crowing about our accomplishments so far.
Anybody know what the holdup is in scheduling the January leadership debate? No one's really able to schedule any events until we know, which is frustrating both for the leadership campaigns and for local event organizers.
Don't quote me, but I've heard everybody thinks somebody else is doing it.
It is an excellent piece. Here's the crux in my opinion:
Wells is saying that in Quebec, there is no dispute that the candidate who can hold the province for the NDP is Mulcair. Obviously there is some dispute, since a number of NDP MPs are supporting other candidates. But inside the province, among the talking heads, they all think it's Mulcair.
Wells then frames the question as something akin to 'hold quebec and hope for the rest' vs. 'hold the rest and hope for the best in Quebec.'
With respect to Wells, I think Mulcair can make a better case that he can hold the rest of the NDP's support while winning Quebec than the other candidates can do the opposite. Impressive though Topp and Nash (and others) are, they are unknown quantities anywhere in Canada. Mulcair is at least well known in Quebec.
Mulcair supporters can argue that their guy has a decade and a half of experience in politics, he's been a Minister, he's a known, proven entity, while others (espcially Topp) are in need of more seasoning before they take over the big chair. They can claim that while Mulcair has to learn to campaign in 9 provinces, the others have to learn to campaign in 10.
Which is to say Ken that I don't think what you took from this column is what I took from it.
Seeing as we're getting a new thread-chunk in this series practically every day, would it be too much to ask that people who start them link back to yesterday's thread-chunk?
To Shoon, I do hope we will see a narrowing of the field after the Halifax debate. It has been good to have a variety of candidates, their ideas, their organising, and their excitement, but I am getting tired of candidates that don't seem up to the task. Inadequate French is a very clear disqualifier but there are others too, like insufficient experience.
Based on the above traits and communications skills, I have a very clear picture in my mind of three tiers of candidates:
1st tier: Mulcair, Nash, Topp
2nd tier: Saganash, Ashton, Cullen
3rd tier: Dewar, Singh, Chisholm
I hope after the Halifax debate, whomever remains the third tier will drop off. I hope the second tier will also make clear what they need to happen, in subsequent months, to stay in the race. You shouldn't be in the race, if you can't do really well at convention. It goes against NDP tradition to ask leadership candidates to step off the soapbox and drop out, but I want the public to get a chance to know the next leader before they are elected and then defined (negatively) by the Conservatives. That is not possible right now, with so many candidates in the race, they suck up all the airtime.
While it remains to be seen, I think the party HQ really dropped the ball (again) on these debates. Here was an opportunity to expand the NDP base to a new audience by holding debates in new cities. Instead, it looks like they just went with NDP strongholds that would be "most able" to host the debates. What we are seeing now, is what a mistake this was. Places that have never hosted debates are clamouring to get in (e.g. Alberta, NFLD, Northern Ontario, others). With the raw energy we are seeing from these volunteers, a debate in these locations would be guaranteed to suceed, in fact some of these locations already have suceeded or would have suceeded if the HQ wasn't lumbering under the weight of these slow to spring up events in the NDP "strongholds."
We also have to remember that some of these "strongholds" like Vancouver are getting two debates (i.e. the candidates town hall at BC NDP convention and one in March) and Toronto wanted two debates too (i.e. they already get the convention, two leadership campaigns running!). I have been watching how the leadership candidates respond to these debate scheduling issues and I would have to say that those candidates that accepted the invite to debate in Northern Ontario early (e.g. Mulcair) won points in my books and thus that issued calls for Toronto to have a second debate (e.g. Dewar) lost points.
Oh yeah? Well what if someone wants to check back to a specific thread? Out of sheer courtesy, I'm filling that need here:
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-52
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-51
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-fifty
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-49
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-48
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-47
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-46
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-45
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-43
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-42
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-41
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-40
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-39
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-38-0
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-37
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-36
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-35
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-34
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-33-...
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-32
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-31
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-30
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-forum-29
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-28
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-27
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-26
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-25
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-24
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-23
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-22
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-21
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-20
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-19
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-18
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-17
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-16-0
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-15
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-14
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-13
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-12
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-round-eleven
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-round-10
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-round-9
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-round-8
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-part-7
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-6
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-5
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-4
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-3
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-2
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-thread-part-1-many
For my next project, I'll be linking to each individual post. Stay tuned.
That Wells piece is simply stunning. As a commenter writes:
Wells doesn't even bother to dismiss Saganash. Based on this article, he is a non-person, not even worth mentioning. Meanwhile, wasn't he considered by many to be the best French speaker in the debate?
*smooch* Aw, shucks. *grin*
I still do think, though, that since the "raw energy" places are--as you point out--hosting other kinds of local events than official debates, party members in those areas will have plenty of opportunity to get to know the candidates before the convention. I mean, nice as it would have been to see an official debate in my city, it really wasn't necessary.
@ Unionist:
You missed one:
http://rabble.ca/babble/canadian-politics/ndp-leadership-44-threads-firs...
I think I'd like to go further than this and say, you shouldn't be in the race if you don't think you can finish in the top 3.
@AnonymousMouse - I actually meant to write "but inside the province" in the last line of what you quoted. Sorry.