Aliens Land!

I couldn't have written a better reply. 

Yes,  accountability and transparency in government is what's needed here. We know this is true by observing the corrupt financial system and their muscle, NATO, and how they operate above international law. 

I don't know about you, but I tend to want to believe the many ordinary people and their evidence over that of the denialism of the most secretive governments in history and their vicious toadies in Canada, U.K., France etc. European Parliaments did acknowledge and condemn the cold war era Gladio terrorism by 1991 while the ringleader nation denied, denied, and denied some more. Yes they reacted to it.

And the U.S. Military dictatorship has told a number of lies, and each incompatible with the official lies before it about UFOs since 1947, which was also the same year that the U.S. republic was overthrown  and replaced with a militarized government with signing of the National Security Act and creation of the CIA and NSA. And our governments went on to embrace war criminals and welcomed them in to the English-speaking countries and West Germany where Himmler's SS was reconstructed to spy on our WW II allies, the Soviets for decades. 

You've identified the problem, S.J. It is an overall lack of transparancy and accountability to the public in general since at least WW II. IOWs, our democracy is a sham. What we have is an illusion of democracy and not the real McCoy by a long shot. And I want to thank you for underscoring that basic truth for us. The truth isn't out there - it's right here in this thread.

The glasnost is half full.

I believe your associating the economic desperation of millions of poor and unemployed Americans and other countries nationals with that of the UFO phenomenon while interesting is somewhat meaningless to the topic at hand, S.J. There is nothing that isn't wide open to marketing in a capitalist system including the topic of discussion. So what else is new?

But what you are trying to say about the matter, that all UFO reports are marketing gimmicks for T-shirt business types etc, is called a fallacious argument and affirmation of the consequent. It's like proposing that because all dogs die, like all political hawks on the right must eventually die, then surely all political hawks on the right are dogs. We can agree with that proposition all we like, but it makes neither semantic nor logical sense. It's a meaningless statement for which there is no meaningful reply.

You seem to be in agreement with the notion that a vicious empire has lied constantly to the world public about a wide range of issues affecting global warming, and peace and prosperity in general.

And yet you are basically on side with those same lyingest liars of the century when it comes to official government lies concerning UFOs, just so you realize. And I have not concluded that you are a political hawk, because it would be a feeble attempt to use affirmation of the consequent similarly.

It would be better if I associated your extreme point of view, or that of your disbelief in UFOs period and that all eye witnesses to the UFO phenomenon world wide are deluded or insane, with that of Carl Sagan who, like you, said that extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof and say nothing of Sagan's mild criticism of Frank Drake's equation concerning a higher than Drakean likelihood that the universe and even our own galaxy is teeming with highly evolved intelligent life. And that's because I think you are mainly interested in eye-balling the hard physical proof side of things and not so interested in the meta discussion of what is considerable evidence for. And that is a valid point of view imo. And there exists a copious amount of physical evidence for debunkerists to debunk and can prolly use all the help they can get.

 We don't know what the truth is about UFOs except that the US Military Government has lied to the public concerning their own employees' and citizens' reports concerning UFOs. And the official lies that change from decade to decade can be checked against previous US Gov't lies with respect to the same sightings and eye witness reports. Who is reponsible for authorizing the re-writing of these lies, you ask? That's a good question and glad I mentioned it. And in true NSA-CIA fashion, their idea of transparency in government is to declassify official documents decades after the fact with anywhere from 10 to 90 percent of a given declassified CIA report blacked-out. S.J, what does blacking out information that is 60 years old have to do with transparency and accountability to the public? There is perhaps one eye witness to the Roswell incident still alive. And I could be wrong about that.

Meanwhile other Western world governments have come clean with the public WRT UFO reports, and most of them dating back to some specific year between 1946 and 1948 strangely enough. What do you think about that coincidence, SJ? What else do you think the US Military Gov't has locked away from public access in archives until such time as it no longer represents a threat to U.S. "national security"? 

U.K. picks up Chilean story

Agreed.

And so what do you make of the Chilean government's physical evidence for UFO's described in the article above? Shall we reject it completely on pseudo-scientific inquisitional grounds demanding we not bother looking through Galileo's telescope, because Galileo Galilei is surely proposing heresy? Why should I jump to conclusions and reject this physical evidence?

That's simply not true, SJ. If you look into it, objects of a wide range of sizes and shapes have been sighted around the world - objects from a few metres typical of, say, a landing craft to objects more than a mile long and similar to, let's say, a command module or carrier ship. The US Navy has floated large aircraft carrier ships on the seven seas since WW II for example. Photographs of UFOs are recorded since the 19th century and before there was Photoshop and the internet.

Are you suggesting that UFO's are dogs down the quarter-mile? Perhaps aliens don't do capitalism? Perhaps they don't do built-in obsolescence? It could be that they build vehicles to last a life time? I dunno, but I think imagination is all that's lacking here. This could be future tech we're speculating on. What are the limits, really? Because in the 19th century, wild ideas like trans-oceanic steamship crossings were laughed at by leading Royal astronomers at the time. Who's laughing now? 

I mean, our airplanes have all had wings since before the Wrighteous brothers sang Unchained Melody. And even before that. Why doesn't Boeing or Bombardier design planes without wings? Or sans wings and one that floats in mid-air without making a sound? Or how about a plane without wings, no sound, and flies through both air and water with negligible drag coefficient? That would represent significant design change, don't you think? Never mind settling for racing stripes, or CD players or WiFi ports in the dash, I want one of those things that gets a gazillion kilometres to the litre of whatever in heck fuel they use. And I won't even care if there isn't a rear view mirror, or that the seats aren't leopard skin. 

We haven't even reached the tech limits of our own spacecraft designs according to the experts. A nuclear ramjet was ground-tested as part of NASA's Pluto program. A range of nuclear rockets were successfully tested during the NERVA (Nuclear Engines for Rocket Vehicle Applications) program.

Canadian nuclear physicist Stanton Friedman wrote:

We could have spacecraft capable of travelling millions of miles per hour. The problem with travelling at such high speeds is more one of human biology than technological. A trained astronaut can't stand a force of 30 G's for longer than one second at a time. Obviously if the object in the Chilean videos is piloted by someone, they can't be human. Could it be some sort of military UAV? I think it's possible but not likely.

What are you talkin' aboot, future boy? Buck Rogers is 25th century whereas this 1870 photo pre-dates Bucky by centuries.

And, what do you make of the recent physical evidence in Chile? As much as I hate to consider it, it might be that neither Toronto nor Vancouver is the centre of the universe. It's heresy for sure.

Well yes it seems to me that you are the one proposing conspiracy theories now. Seven pranksters conspired to film the same speeding object from different vantage points? That shouldn't be difficult for the experts to check if they haven't already. 

And upon further analysis, the videos might even corroborate each of the others. Imagine that - seven Abraham Zapruders on-site and all filming the scene of the crime.

Hmmm? Sounds like another X file to me.

lol!

Tell us, Slumber J. if you were a betting man, would you put a dime on Gordon Cooper and his anarcho-astronaut friends, or would you be liking what Uncle Sam says about the issue? Say no more because I already know the answer to that one.