babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.
I was called away to a meeting, if your determination was based on my absence, and I do have to return to my family. Sorry if you consider my point of view, questions and struggles with the topic insincere.
I'm still looking for an example of a "humanitarian" intervention, uninvited by any sovereign country, which progressive folks supported.
The "sovereign" part might be under dispute, but many progressives, rightly or wrongly, see the American Civil war as in part a humanitarian intervention - though of course that is only part of the truth.
And Charles II hanging the threat of dissolution over the Massachusetts Colony in order to impose greater religious tolerance.
I am sure some Americans think the Invasion of Montreal was a case of bringing freedom and fighting empire (and they did leave behind the printing press that started the Gazette).
Though I think the greater question is not what is and is not imperialism, but what is appropriate and valid discourse with respect to it.
I don't think there is any one answer to that one. This space has its set of rules and protocols, and I think most of us understand how to operate within them most of the time.
But there is no one right answer, and how that question gets answered depends entirely on the context.
The 50-year U.S. blockade against Cuba is the epitome of imperialism. The world applying sanctions and embargoes against racist South Africa or Israel is the epitome of anti-imperialism. So it depends.
Unionist, I cross posted with you. ( I think that's what it's called ). No offense taken and certainly none intended. I will come back to continue reading when I get free. It is an important topic and one that confuses me.
The 50-year U.S. blockade against Cuba is the epitome of imperialism. The world applying sanctions and embargoes against racist South Africa or Israel is the epitome of anti-imperialism. So it depends.
Was this in response to something I said? Hard to tell with all the examples being tossed around.
We need to be able to speak emphatically against imperialism; not only because it is so richly deserving of being spoken against, and not only because such caveats are often demanded as a way to measure our compliance with someone else's progressive scale. At any rate, it seems that it is rarely a given in our discussions. The same sleeve wearing denunciations are not generally demanded when we speak in the context of repressive regimes. This is in fact discouraged, on the presumed basis that we're lending comfort and validity to the narratives of our reactionary enemies. I think we should be free to reject the false choices between dichotomies and between displays of political contortionism formed out of cement. But we can't put the people out of our minds. They should never be used as anyone's excuse. We need to do a better job of understanding the difference between discussing people and discussing the various political systems they fall under.
Excellent! And I think that at times it's possible that we find ourselves focused, perhaps, a little too intently on condemning our own opposition party for their bad decisions. This is good for democracy no doubt. And I think when we have the NDP on the ground kicking hell out of them while laughing maniacally like this, sometimes we neglect to criticize the actual imperialists in phony majority rule doing the bulk of toadying to NATO and Uncle Sam so predictably. I enjoy a good kick at the NDP, but meanwhile the vicious toadies in government are rising off the pavement, brushing themselves off and crawling past our steel-toe boots on the sidewalk to political safety.
We are missing the opportunity to ask why? Why did the Harper Government of Canada knowingly prop-up
I guess it would get right to the heart of the matter if we were to ask if that article would have violated babble's later policy on anti-imperialism. In which case, perhaps the moderators should take it down, or at least add a note saying "This is something that we regret having published". Sort of like those old racist Warner Brothers cartoons I've seen on DVD, where the studio puts an intro at the beginning saying "We realize now that this stuff is highly offensive, but we're not going to pretend the cartoons never existed".
The 50-year U.S. blockade against Cuba is the epitome of imperialism. The world applying sanctions and embargoes against racist South Africa or Israel is the epitome of anti-imperialism. So it depends.
Was this in response to something I said? Hard to tell with all the examples being tossed around.
I guess it would get right to the heart of the matter if we were to ask if that article would have violated babble's later policy on anti-imperialism. In which case, perhaps the moderators should take it down, or at least add a note saying "This is something that we regret having published". Sort of like those old racist Warner Brothers cartoons I've seen on DVD, where the studio puts an intro at the beginning saying "We realize now that this stuff is highly offensive, but we're not going to pretend the cartoons never existed".
Voice of the Damned,
The article immediately opposite to the one you posted is even more blunt in advocating foreign intervention, this time from Linda McQuaig. Isn't she a regular contributor to rabble?
Quote:
Can't we spare 600 troops for Darfur?
By Linda McQuaig
| May 15, 2006
Some 200,000 people have already been killed and another 2 million driven from their homes.
An international intervention in Darfur could make an enormous difference, possibly even averting a Rwanda-style genocide.
While the janjaweed, mounted on horseback and camels, easily kill and terrorize the unarmed people of Darfur, they're no match for a modern army.
Peter Langille, a defence analyst at the University of Western Ontario, notes that the Canadian army's fighting vehicles, the Coyote and Lav III, are equipped with top-of-the-line sensors and firepower that could easily stop the janjaweed in their tracks.
Canada is well equipped to play a leading role in a UN mission to Darfur. Such a mission could be carried out by a special UN standby force known as SHIRBRIG, which was created in 2001 to deal with just this sort of crisis.
Canada was one of the moving forces behind SHIRBRIG, and one of 15 nations agreeing to support it. A Canadian general heads it up.
But Ottawa has refused to authorize Canadian troops for a SHIRBRIG mission to Darfur, to assist overwhelmed African Union troops.
Or the Congo where the armies of U.S. proxies Rwanda and Uganda have slaughtered six million human beings since 1998? Let's not go there and interfere with the grand central plan, either.
I guess it would get right to the heart of the matter if we were to ask if that article would have violated babble's later policy on anti-imperialism.
We're trying to have a discussion about what anti-imperialism is, how we should view it, how progressive people are not immune to the massive propaganda of the MSM, etc. You want to turn that discussion into some kind of caricature by asking what we will ban and what we won't ban for discussion. You can do better than that.
Shit yes. Just let you imagination flow and put down fellow babblers in this fashion: "This is far from ideal, obviously, but it's difficult to ask for anything more when our one mainstream progressive party is hailing the actions of our troops for killing Libyan civilians."
Chortle, chortle.
Yes,Merry Christmas.
Shit yes. Just let you imagination flow and put down fellow babblers in this fashion: "This is far from ideal, obviously, but it's difficult to ask for anything more when our one mainstream progressive party is hailing the actions of our troops for killing Libyan civilians."
Chortle, chortle.
Yes,Merry Christmas.
Really? Reeaallyy?? And you somehow think not one Libyan civilians blood is our shame? It's no insult to babbler's. It's a deserved insult to the NDP and a shot across the bow they need.
Shit yes. Just let you imagination flow and put down fellow babblers in this fashion:
"This is far from ideal, obviously, but it's difficult to ask for anything more when our one mainstream progressive party is hailing the actions of our troops for killing Libyan civilians."
Chortle, chortle. Yes, Merry Christmas.
It's ugly, and not very festive I'll grant you that. But is there not a ring of truth in it for you?
Neither I nor any other New Democrat was "hailing the actions of our troops for killing Libyan civilians." Not one. That's just distorted nonsense hung out on the line for effect. The usual holier than thou from folks who pretend to a higher moral order. We hailed the deaths of the bloodthirsty bastards who played butcher for the madman who engineered the deaths of innocents over Lockerbie. Is there not a "ring of truth in that." Get a grip, people.
"I am sorry for the consequences of my silence at that time, for the innocent Libyan Mr. Abdelbaset Al Megrahisentenced to life imprisonment, and for the country of Libya."
Just another false flag I'm afraid. There's a lot of it going around.
We're trying to have a discussion about what anti-imperialism is, how we should view it, how progressive people are not immune to the massive propaganda of the MSM, etc.
Hmmm... Maybe we should amend that to say that progressive people are not immune to propaganda.
We're trying to have a discussion about what anti-imperialism is, how we should view it, how progressive people are not immune to the massive propaganda of the MSM, etc.
Hmmm... Maybe we should amend that to say that progressive people are not immune to propaganda.
? You seem to be forwarding it. What's your elixir?
Well you see what I mean about the question not being about what is and is not imperialism, but rather what is acceptable discourse with respect to it.
Well, generally, you've been trying to derail us off the MSM trail, no? That's what I took from your statement amendment?
If we can't start there, why are you trying to drag it back to a meta backstage discussion?
Let's have it out there in the open. Then let people decide. If you're going to remove the MSM from culpability, I can't respond in good faith.
Actually it was a comment on the Lockerbie bombing, of which yes, there are a number of alternative theories. Not to dismiss any of them, but none have been proven.
I think I have pointed out deception and bias in the media as much as anyone here. The difference is I think the mainstream media can be useful if one reads it with open eyes. And furthermore, there are many people working within it who are on our side.
But when I read Unionists post I did raise my eyebrows a little bit. Misinformation and bias come from many directions, after all, even if yes, the right wing of the media is the biggest bogeyman.
We don't all have exactly the same perspective on these issues. We shouldn't have to in order to discuss them in a reasonable manner.
If you want to understand what is meant by anti-imperialism you must first understand what is meant by imperialism.
Quote:
David McNally offers us a helpful definition of imperialism, one that allows us to see how its form may change over different historical periods while its basic presuppositions remain constant. He suggests that "Imperialism is a system of global inequalities and domination – embodied in regimes of property, military power and global institutions – through which wealth is drained from the labour and resources of people in the Global South to the systematic advantage of capital in the North."
In 1976, a coalition of intelligence agencies was formed, which was called the Safari Club. This marked the discreet and highly covert coordination among various intelligence agencies, which would last for decades. It formed at a time when the CIA was embroiled in domestic scrutiny over the Watergate scandal and a Congressional investigation into covert CIA activities, forcing the CIA to become more covert in its activities.
In 2002, the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Turki bin Faisal gave a speech in which he stated that in response to the CIA's need for more discretion, "a group of countries got together in the hope of fighting Communism and established what was called the Safari Club. The Safari Club included France, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Iran [under the Shah]."[1] However, "The Safari Club needed a network of banks to finance its intelligence operations. With the official blessing of George H.W. Bush as the head of the CIA," Saudi intelligence chief, Kamal Adham, "transformed a small Pakistani merchant bank, the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI), into a world-wide money-laundering machine, buying banks around the world to create the biggest clandestine money network in history."
AGM is talented young Canadian and promising anti-imperialist researcher and author in his own right.
The "sovereign" part might be under dispute, but many progressives, rightly or wrongly, see the American Civil war as in part a humanitarian intervention - though of course that is only part of the truth.
And Charles II hanging the threat of dissolution over the Massachusetts Colony in order to impose greater religious tolerance.
I am sure some Americans think the Invasion of Montreal was a case of bringing freedom and fighting empire (and they did leave behind the printing press that started the Gazette).
Though I think the greater question is not what is and is not imperialism, but what is appropriate and valid discourse with respect to it.
I don't think there is any one answer to that one. This space has its set of rules and protocols, and I think most of us understand how to operate within them most of the time.
But there is no one right answer, and how that question gets answered depends entirely on the context.
Oy - double post.
The 50-year U.S. blockade against Cuba is the epitome of imperialism. The world applying sanctions and embargoes against racist South Africa or Israel is the epitome of anti-imperialism. So it depends.
Duplicate
We know that NATO has killed Libyans in Libya.
But as it is in Afghanistan, Iraq and so on, are we missing someone? What about U.S./NATO-backed religious militants, this time in Libya?
Was this in response to something I said? Hard to tell with all the examples being tossed around.
Excellent! And I think that at times it's possible that we find ourselves focused, perhaps, a little too intently on condemning our own opposition party for their bad decisions. This is good for democracy no doubt. And I think when we have the NDP on the ground kicking hell out of them while laughing maniacally like this, sometimes we neglect to criticize the actual imperialists in phony majority rule doing the bulk of toadying to NATO and Uncle Sam so predictably. I enjoy a good kick at the NDP, but meanwhile the vicious toadies in government are rising off the pavement, brushing themselves off and crawling past our steel-toe boots on the sidewalk to political safety.
We are missing the opportunity to ask why? Why did the Harper Government of Canada knowingly prop-up
Libya's top rebel commander who has deep ties to Al-Qa'eda?
Unionist wrote:
Here's an unfortunate example of someone who should know better getting caught up in the rush to war.
I guess it would get right to the heart of the matter if we were to ask if that article would have violated babble's later policy on anti-imperialism. In which case, perhaps the moderators should take it down, or at least add a note saying "This is something that we regret having published". Sort of like those old racist Warner Brothers cartoons I've seen on DVD, where the studio puts an intro at the beginning saying "We realize now that this stuff is highly offensive, but we're not going to pretend the cartoons never existed".
Let's condemn the Harper Government, too, for propping-up AQIM in North Africa.
And let's condemn NATO's policies, official and otherwise, for their import-export business in terrorism at the same time.
Hello? Where did all the anti-imperialists go?
Oy! Wait up, mates. What's the hurry? ...
Double post
No. It was in response to Glenl.
Voice of the Damned,
The article immediately opposite to the one you posted is even more blunt in advocating foreign intervention, this time from Linda McQuaig. Isn't she a regular contributor to rabble?
http://rabble.ca/columnists/cant-we-spare-600-troops-darfur
Or the Congo where the armies of U.S. proxies Rwanda and Uganda have slaughtered six million human beings since 1998? Let's not go there and interfere with the grand central plan, either.
We're trying to have a discussion about what anti-imperialism is, how we should view it, how progressive people are not immune to the massive propaganda of the MSM, etc. You want to turn that discussion into some kind of caricature by asking what we will ban and what we won't ban for discussion. You can do better than that.
It's ugly, and not very festive I'll grant you that. But is there not a ring of truth in it for you?
Getting a grip. Got it-good a-ok. And it now appears that the Gladio gang prolly fitted-up Gadaffi for that one, too.
Just another false flag I'm afraid. There's a lot of it going around.
Hmmm... Maybe we should amend that to say that progressive people are not immune to propaganda.
That's nice.
Well you see what I mean about the question not being about what is and is not imperialism, but rather what is acceptable discourse with respect to it.
RP
Look, I neither said nor meant any such thing.
Actually it was a comment on the Lockerbie bombing, of which yes, there are a number of alternative theories. Not to dismiss any of them, but none have been proven.
I think I have pointed out deception and bias in the media as much as anyone here. The difference is I think the mainstream media can be useful if one reads it with open eyes. And furthermore, there are many people working within it who are on our side.
But when I read Unionists post I did raise my eyebrows a little bit. Misinformation and bias come from many directions, after all, even if yes, the right wing of the media is the biggest bogeyman.
We don't all have exactly the same perspective on these issues. We shouldn't have to in order to discuss them in a reasonable manner.
If you want to understand what is meant by anti-imperialism you must first understand what is meant by imperialism.
This is from Todd Gordon's excellent 2010 book, Imperialist Canada.
I'm not against having an anti-imperialism rule here, but defining what anti-imperialism actually is won't be as easy as some here insist.
And so we forge on...
The Imperial Anatomy of Al-Qaeda: The CIA's Drug-Running Terrorists and the "Arc of Crisis" Andrew Gavin Marshall
AGM is talented young Canadian and promising anti-imperialist researcher and author in his own right.