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Syndicate
U.S. Groups Helped Nurture Arab Uprisings
The NED, USAID, IRI, NDI etc all do overtly what the CIA used to do covertly, like election rigging, "Low Intensity Conflict", and overthrowing governments of sovereign nations. They are agencies funded by the U.S. Government (ie. taxpayers) and are therefore absolutely not operating "at arm's length" from ... the U.S. Military Government. In fact, it's what democratically-minded people refer to as political interference in the sovereign affairs of other countries and against the law in the U.S.A. as well as most countries around the world.
Fidel, it's not a big secret that every US agency - overt or covert - has a finger in everyone's pie. What is truly offensive is the claim that they influence international actions - especially those of protesters who face physical harm and even death to publicly declare their opposition to oppressive regimes - to the extent that these protests are simply a result of [name your US agency] Western operations in various countries. To suggest such is an overtly imperialistic attitude, that the West has so much influence that any seeming groundswell of dissident behaviour is a result of some Machiavellian sceme, that it violates babble policy. As has been pointed out to you time and time again.
I get that you like conspiracy theories, and agree that much of them may represent real events, but the scant empirical evidence supporting these claims isn't enough. Back off from this, or I'll jackboot you into the land of the permanently banned.
To say that the CIA helped support some elements in the Arab Spring is far from claiming that the Arab Spring was nothing but the result of CIA-type operations. The first statement should be non-controversial; the second is obvious nonsense.
We have had several excellent moderators, and you have mentioned some of them. Catchfire and Becca are equally doing fine jobs, and best wishes to everyone here in 2012.
All I claimed is that the very imperialist CIA and its western cohorts in crime have been playing the game of democracy prevention since WW II. And Wilf is correct, I never claimed that the CIA, MI6 etc were all knowing and all-powerful god-like beings in control of everything everywhere all of the time. Because that would be absurd and an attempt to discredit even conspiracy theorists clinging to the weakest of theories.
But the military government is working on these problems/opportunities. The CIA has admitted that the drone wars are killing civilians as well as their former friends and the otherwise still in the mercenary business in far off lands. DARPA and thousands of private contractors are well funded in their search for new and better technologies to spy on and wage high tech warfare on mainly weak and defenseless countries now and in the future. They really do believe that they will one day be all-powerful and all knowing. And when it happens, it's basically check mate on democracy.
Catchfire said there was no evidence, but obviously there is. And it's as close to Glasnost as it gets in North America.
Wilf asked a question which is typical in law: Who benefits? And it's been glaringly obvious who benefits from democracy prevention in oil-rich and geostrategically situated countries bordering resource-rich Russia and the vast oil basin of Central Asia etc in the grand chess game. It's perhaps more obvious to those of us born before 1989 or so.
And I think it's especially grand that CIA involvement in the affairs of other nations is being described here as a point of contention that shares a realm with so many conspiracy theories, and that to suggest as much is to display an overtly imperialistic attitude against people with legitimate aspirations. Never mind the fact that western intelligence agencies and embassies have their people actively engaged in the background processes. The fact remains that if these things are spoken of here it is the same as saying democracy protestors are out there risking their lives for a lie...one that persists by the way in every country that rose up, where they still cannot freely elect their leaders. These threats of jackboot banning and such are the result of a complete misapprehension of what is being discussed here...six months down the road in this thread alone. Notwithstanding the fact that thousands of troops have died during the decade past in the service of pack of lies. We're not going to take it laying down I can tell you that.
No one here has said that the protesters are not genuine in their quest for democracy. I don't know how or why anyone jumping to the defense of the imperialist CIA liek this could possibly misinterpret what I have said in that way. It does sound a lot like kangaroo court style accusation, though. False accusations are no better than when the imperialist CIA waterboards innocent people to knowingly extract false information to use and abuse as propaganda in the phony war on terror.
I did not do it and will continue refusing to make false confessions.
As the character Jerry Fletcher said in Conspiracy Theory: No! Noooo not gravy nooooo!
It sounds like nonsense to me too Fidel, and I don't even like you very much. But we can appeal to the editor for some sanity if it comes to it..for what that'd be worth.
Thanks. I'm not all that wild about me some days, either.
I suppose it's not worth it to point out that the article Fidel linked to has nothing to do with the CIA and is simply parroting American imperialist narratives which credit Washington-based think tanks, a handful of NGOs and their "democracy building programs" for teaching Arabs the meaning of freedom.
Well isn't that nice! Thanks New York Times!
This is a very different prospect from the conspiracy theory (still, completely lacking in evidence) Fidel is trying to forward while mods are on a much-deserved holiday break. This is the last I'll say on the matter (since I'm regularly ten sheets to the wind these days and supposed to be off) but Fidel, you know the program. Until I'm back, could you at least leave it out of this thread, which is meant to pine babblers of yore and not a tool for grinding axes.
Let me finish by saying that I like Fidel very much, and always have. Slumberjack too, although I'd never admit it. Happy Holidays!
Even if you don't believe that these groups now do what the CIA used to do covertly, which is what I actually said before, you can't possibly believe that "democracy assistance" has anything to do with democracy.
What I actually said was that the CIA was not behind the door at rigging elections, assassinations of foreign leaders, and overthrow of foreign governments in the good old days, ie. the cold war era. And today the exact same ends are achieved by "democracy assistance." And the election rigging still occurs with Haiti being but one example in recent years.
The fact that NED's offshoots claim to be operating at "arm's length" from U.S. Government is a lie, because the U.S. Government funds NED, which is an umbrella organization funding IRI, NDI, USAID and so on. The money eventually flows to "NGO's" allegedly without linkages to U.S, Government. Whether "quasi-private", NGO or otherwise, the money trail is directly traceable back to the same people in power funding the CIA and that agency's annual portion of the Pentagon's "black budgets" on a scale of what the province of Ontario spends on health care annually. Black budgets have nothing to do with democracy, either, but that's another thread.
That it is the U.S. Government funding "democracy assistance" and not the CIA actually going into these countries and assassinating foreign leaders or rigging elections makes no difference as the CIA and U.S. Gov't have been synonymous since signing of the National Security Act in 1947. The CIA has operated above international law ever since and are continuing to do so today.
IOW's, these are U.S. Government funded agencies whose goals are not to encourage democracy in any country but to further U.S. Government interests and those of U.S. corporations and multinationals with interests in countries targeted for "democracy assistance"/regime change, overthrow of nationalist governments, and even the organizing and funding of protest groups in those countries. Money has no place in "democracy building" or democracy assistance much less foreign money from foreign sources. The U.S. itself would never allow "democracy assistance" funding to flow into U.S. primaries or presidential elections, because there would be some people being thrown in jail for a long time for accepting foreign aid to overthrow the government. It's called sedition, a high crime against the state and one which is on every country's law books.
This is not democracy assistance - it's crossing over the line into political interference. It's the same goal but different method whether by the CIA's cold war era maneuvering or by "democracy assistance" today. With U.S. democracy assistance and western aid to developing countries in general, there are always strings attached, which is another reason that the Washington consensus started losing out to "Beijing consensus" in the 2000s. This is colder war baloney and the same tune the old cow died on.
Happy holidays, D watchers!
US Clumsily Covers Tracks in Russian Sedition by Tony Cartalucci
Imagine that the governments of Russia, Venezuela, or Cuba were funding Occupy Wall Streeters, Ralph Nader's Green Party, Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich's presidential campaigns in America. How long would that last before a bunch of people are renditioned and thrown in an American gulag for accepting money from a foreign government for purposes of overthrowing the Wall Street government in Washington? It would be hello Gitmo or Rikers Island.
Ron Paul on Orwellian "democratization"
How many millions of US taxpayer dollars have been wasted trying to overthrow the government in Belarus?
Will rabble declare its official opposition to the USSA's imperialist "democratization" efforts around the world?
What ever happened to Tony Cartalucci? I rarely see him posting here anymore.
Seems we haven't heard from Stargazer in ages.
I've wondered about her, too. I hope she's okay.
Haven't seen LeFauvre in a while.
I miss Stargazer.
As for Lefauve, I don't think you'll see him again, unfortunately, after this:
In the same post, Gaian was suspended for a day, Chauchat was suspended "pending further action", and the thread was closed because:
GGood lord. I missed that lovely thread.
I should know better than to read ones that I had been avoiding- even of the avoidence decision was not really evaluated.
There are 3 that it would be nice if they remained missing.
But I'm violating the spirit of this thread.
Oops. Didn't remember Lefauvre being suspended. I don't remember the name Chauchat at all.
Dunno, I think rumours of Gaian's death have been greatly exaggerated, no?
And in keeping with the spirit of the thread, if I may quote another great thinker:
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.
Please excuse the dated, exclusionary language. I don't mention it just as a reminder that I don't think any of us wants to be spoken ill of after we have gone (and I know you acknowledge that, so I am not slagging you).
But I also think, in the spirit of this thread, that we are worse off for losing people who perhaps have not been so prudent in expressing themselves, but were nevertheless here in good faith.
I don't know. A round of good riddance from at least a few selected discussions conducted lately, if not all of them on some days, could alternately be taken as a compliment indicating that one has been making a stellar job of it.
I've become so rural that I don't even mind anymore that no one picks up their dog poop.
I'm rural. Dog poop everywhere. (who picks up dog poop???)
Never mind. I want to know what's up with those dog owners who put their dog poop in a cute little plastic bag and then leave that on the ground beside the trail.
Do they think the magic dogshit fairy is going to clean up after them?
Every little thing no matter how annoying or venemous jus' wants to be loved. I think it's a governing universal principle, or something pretty close to it.