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Syndicate
Interesting observation. I might be able to offer an explanation, although I’m not sure it will be sufficient. I think, at least sometimes in my experience, that question is asked with a sort of expectation that whoever is being asked should know and give an answer that is appropriate to the asker just because they are men.
First, the fact is most men don’t have a clue what percentage of men turn out to be rapists or wife-beaters and why they become that way, let alone what to do about it. One could argue that it might make a positive difference overall in society if they did know. But in today’s reality, most don’t. To assume that they must have an answer simply because they share the same gender is to imply that because they are men they empathize with a rapists’ actions and motivations, which is of course nonsense.
Second, while it’s obvious on principle that even one man becoming a rapist is unacceptable, the term “so many” is highly subjective and, in terms of actual numbers, is not accurate.
According to Statistics Canada studies and
various studies in the US of A, an estimated eight per cent of the males population statistically commits a violent crime (as in murder, rape, some sort of physical assault, kidnapping and armed robbery) in their lifetime (about four per cent of women statistically do the same). About a third of that eight per cent commit a violent crime against women.
So that’s not very many men at all. The problem is that about 86 per cent of violent crimes are perpetrated by men. That means that it’s very uncommon for a violent offender, including rapists, to commit only one crime. Rather, the small percentage of men who do perpetrate violence for the most part are serious repeat offenders.
Two points on this.
First, while the culture generally exposes men to violence, or insinuates that violence is a good way to resolve differences and conflict, it’s clear, at least from my own experience and of those who I know growing up, that it doesn’t directly say that rape or violence against women is OK. In fact, all those goofy cop shows and dramas we all grew up with in the 1960s and 1970s always portrayed the rapists, wife-beaters, child-molesters, extortionists and muggers as the bad guys, and anyone who knew of or read about such people saw them as gross villains, not as role models.
So it seems to me the cultural influences on rape and other violence against women isn’t that such things are acceptable. Rather, it’s that the emphasis on violence as a way of maintaining personal identity and addressing social or personal issues can influence some men to act out in that violent and destructive way.
Second, I agree that it’s incumbent on all working class people, including men, to get involved in any way they can to change our economy and society for the better, including advocating against violence. However, it is impossible, and patently unfair, to ask men collectively, especially working class ones, to take responsibility, as in blame, for what they do not control and have no say in shaping. The culture in question here was not developed consciously and democratically by everyone affected by it. That, I think, is one of the main reasons it has so many rotten attributes. To hurl the burden of this onto people who have no franchise in it is counter to justice and makes no sense.
You are correct, it is asked because they are men. Who should I be asking, women? We have no real insights. Why do I ask my male friends? To see what their insights may be. You can believe me, some come up with some pretty disturbing answers. The ones who get hostile? They are the minority. I do not think asking men what they think causes rape to happen is a bad thing to ask. Nor does ti extend to assuming all men know. That was your interpretation. To me, your interpretation is problematic. I would think about that for awhile as to why it is problematic for you. If someone were to ask me, as a female, why do some women abuse their children, I could at least speculate and answer from what knowledge and insight I have as a women.
Read above again. Your defensiveness is not that encouraging. Nor is your pat answer. In fact, it is essentially "you should ask men about rape" which is pure bullshit.
Highly subjective? Try telling that to women who have been victims of insect, date rape, stranger rape, molestations, etc. These crimes go largely unreported and according to the police themselves, over 90 percent of rapes or sexual assaults are not reported. There is a reason for that. Part of it is denial. Sort of what you are doing here, in this thread. Much of it is, "oh please, that many men don't rape. I'm going to share something with you Steppenwolf. Out of all of my closest female friends, I do not know one single women who has not experienced rape, sexual assault, or incest or stranger molestation in one form or another. Most of them have been victims of family members. Your stats, well, they mean nothing when compared to reality. Stats cannot accurately reflect that reality. I'm sure you can surmise why.
While this is true, it does not deal with the reality of unreported sexual crimes does it? No, it does not. That would inflate these statistics to a very high degree. Nor do these statistics take into account the vast majority of unfound rape claims, claims which do not mean there have been no crime, but a crime which has has been perpetrated against a women of 'unsavory background, or whatever other criteria these cops use these days. So, Steppenwolf, what of all these men who sexually assault and have their cases thrown out for reasons not associated with their guilt or innocence? And how about dealing with the reality that the justice system is unfairly hard on women reporting and going through their system when raped? You conveniently ignore these, or perhaps you are not aware.
Did you miss this life? Did you read about Sven's Grand Theft Auto description? I'm sure that is not the only example. How about all those other examples wherein the charge is against a big name, with money, and the woman is a money grabbing 'whore'? Or how about the rapes against prostitutes and other sex workers? How about addressing a culture that makes jokes about the No means No slogan, such as the one mentioned in another thread? How about all those rape pron videos, and degradation scat videos some men seem to keen to buy?
Again, another 'Oh please, I don't think it is fair to make men think of such things and the way they may help perpetuate such a culture of rape. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
I am going to be 42 soon. In my life alone here are the many thing I have experienced okay? Only 1 was reported:
- two rapes (vicsious ones I might add)
- numerous instances of walking by some man trying to masterbate in front of me
- sexualt assaults. One when I was in grade seven done by 7 boys
- Family related sexualt crimes against me as a child
That's just some things. These are just the one's I am comfortable to print. Not because I want sympathy, but you need to realize that just because 'in your world' this is a non-issue (which personally it shouldn't be) does not mean it is a non-issue for us.
Michelle, no worries, you are doing amazingly well, and I fully appreciate your help and insights.
So if a dock worker rapes a woman, he's not to blame because his union didn't negotiate a better salary?? If Donald Trump raped someone, would he be more culpable because he's rich and powerful [img]confused.gif" border="0[/img]
We should ask rapists. Honestly: is there any work done interviewing rapists on why they rape?
No Safe Place
But just FYI, those studies I listed in the last post and the numbers they offer are NOT based on reported or convicted crimes, since they also state that the majority of these types of crimes go unreported, but on estimates extrapolated from reports and convictions and studies based on large numbers of interviews and random polling.
I wasn’t inferring that asking men about their impressions on why some men become violent offenders is not a good thing. In fact, if you’re doing research, I don’t see how you would not want to do so. I would assume you would also need to ask women in general about their impressions, as well as the vics, the perps and the families of both. That way, you get a more broad and comprehensive view.
My reference was to my own experience having been asked the question but soon realizing, given the asker’s behaviour, that it wasn’t asked out of interest my impressions or for research, but as a slight or attack, expecting me to answer for the violent crimes or attitudes of other people I don’t know and have nothing in common with.
The sad fact is you likely have as much insight into this matter as I do. If you asked me simply for my insights into why some men engage in sexual violence against women, most of what I could offers are not very qualified impressions that would likely not be of interest or serve any real purpose.
For example, you say:
This obviously gives you insights that I can’t even fathom. I wouldn’t dare even guess at what it was like for you going through all this.
But I can say that as a victim of a fair deal of non-sexual violence as a youth (still have a scar), I can certainly much more readily empathize with your plight as a victim of violence at the hands of obviously very disrespectful and destructive people than I can with whatever motivations a violent sexual predator might have.
No denial, or being “defensive” either. Just trying to be factual—relying on comprehensive reports and studies by agencies with at least some credibility on the issue with obviously a lot more knowledge about it than me.
As said, those studies refer to estimates that I mentioned of what percentage of the population turns violent, regardless of whether they get reported or not.
While I think it’s safe to say that all people, especially men, have, to one degree or another, violent tendencies and that our economies and cultures create many situations where various people are provoked or even encouraged to engage in violence for various reasons, it’s not safe to assume that most people, including men, are blood-thirsty scheming monsters just itching for an opportunity to get violent with someone in order to get something they want. I don’t think people in general work that way.
Actually, one of those studies (can’t remember which one now) estimates that one in three women and one in nine men will experience some form of sexual violence, like what you describe, in their lifetimes. That bugs me, since I have two daughters, and while they have never said they have been directly victimized, those stats don’t look encouraging. And I do know that my wife was sexually abused when she was a teenager. So, in fairness, I think they do relate to reality.
I know several women who have experienced similar sexual violence—most of it with a man as the perp. But the question seems, at least related to this discussion, has every or almost every man they have had dealings, association or relationships with attempted a violent sexual assault on them. The answer that I am presented with is clearly no. Actually, it seems, from what I have learned from the victims I know, is that it’s often one or two individuals out of many men in their lives who show a pattern of assaulting women other than just them.
Hold on. That’s a bit of a low blow. I certainly may not be the most culturally tuned-in or knowledgeable person out there, but I do think my life experiences aren’t all that bizarre or out of the ordinary. I have never even seen the video game you talk about, so I can’t comment.
I do know that despite all the crass jokes in the locker and lunch rooms out there, my experience tells me for sure that most people, including most men, know that sexual violence is unjust and unacceptable. Certainly the men I have talked with about this in those locker and lunch rooms seem to know it and don’t look positively on men who do engage in such things.
It seems that even most rapists know it’s unacceptable, since most of them clearly try to hide what they do from most other people.
Anyway, I don’t mean to drag on or get preachy about this. I’m obviously no expert on this matter, and in the end, other than a few studies I have skimmed through, I don’t have much to go on other than my own impressions and experiences. But for me, I see it as fundamentally wrong to associate everyone of the same gender with the violent misconduct of minority simply because they have the same gender.
BTW, you're right. This stuff is harder to talk about from this angle than one might think.
On Saturday March 25, people came out to recognize the women and girls who've been killed by violence. So many women murdered - young and old; at home and on the street; of all races, classes and ethnicities. The living held each name, spoke each name, honoured those who died. The living bore witness to what is still happening in our communities each day.
coolwomen.ca
Unbelievable - how does this guy get away without a jail sentence?
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/02/02/vancouver-billionaire-david-ho-p...
I should have known. Having friends in high places says it all.
Didn't Ho hire former BC LIberal Finance Minister Gary Collins to run his Harmony airline into the ground?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/vancouver-...
Is this a measure of equality in Canada, where someone of Chinese ancestry who is rich can now buy justice as well as any rich WASP can buy justice?
I suppose it is. It's the kind of justice we are all too familiar with in this country.
A woman tried to leave, he restrained her and in the process of that illegal act, she suffered a broken ankle and ended up almost naked, in the snow.
And he's fined what would be in the average Canadian's term of economic reference, mere pennies.
Crown Attourney Elliot Poll is a poltroon, and the Judge in this case a reprobate.
What I would like to know for this case and many others that will undoubtedly happen in the future, is what is the line of communication for us to let Crown Prosecutors and Judges know exactly how we feel about their crappulance and corruption.
This stuff goes on, due in part, to the fact that these people are too protected.
One of the key words in the title to this thread is "solutions". Given the problem, what are the solutions?
There have been many suggestions of solutions, Sven.
But here's 10.
Sexual Assault Prevention Tips
1. Don't put drugs in people's drinks in order to control their behaviour.
2. When you see someone walking by themselves, leave them alone!
3. If you pull over to help someone with car problems, remember not to assault them!
4. Never open an unlokced door or window uninvited.
5. If you are in an elevator and someone else gets in, DON'T ASSAULT THEM!
6. USE THE BUDDY SYSTEM if you are not able to stop yourself from assaulting people, ask a friend to stay with you while you are in public.
7. Always be honest with people. Don't pretend to be a caring friend in order to gain the trust of someone you want to assault.Consider telling them you plan to assualt them. If you don't communicate your intentions, the other person may take that as a sign that you do not intend to rape them.
8. Don't forget: you can't have sex with someone unless they are awake!
9. Carry a whistle! If you're worried you might assault someone "accidentally", you can hand it to the person you're with so they can blow it if you do.
10. Don't assault people.
And intervening in a public domestic dispute is not always a good idea, either. Sometimes the young woman getting slapped around by her bf will turn on the outside objector and tell you to mind your own bees wax.
Maysie, from my observations, I think there is often a strong tendency for progressives to seek legislative or regulatory solutions for economic, social, environmental, etc. problems and to not leave problems to be solved by the "free market". But, in the area of violence against women, it strikes me that there really aren't any solutions that are being offered that follow the normal legislative or regulatory pathway...and that the problem is, essentially, being left to the "free market" to solve. At least I'm not aware of any significant government-based solutions to this problem that are being widely, or even noticeably, advocated.
One of the reasons cops loath domestic dispute calls. Greater chance of injury from those calls
Any man (or woman) who intervenes publically when a woman is being assaulted by her male partner doesn't understand the dynamics of an abusive relationship.
Of course she will not run to you as her "saviour". She never will. You're a stranger. And she's locked into a dynamic with her abuser. He runs her life. He decides whether she gets hit or not. He controls her. Until he doesn't. If she shows any sign of going against him, such as looking to a stranger, especially a male strenger FFS, she'll suffer later.
Think about it this way. This is behaviour that he sees as "okay" public behaviour. Imagine how he is behind closed, locked doors.
And Fidel, it's not a "domestic dispute". It's, statistically, violence against women.
And Bacchus, sorry, but cry me a fucking river for the cops. She has to live there, with him, and deal with him, knowing the cops can't do anything until she's badly beaten or dead. Imagine living with that fear. Imagine that, as we chat about this. In the feminist forum.
Sven, the reason the justice system isn't looked to for solutions is because it's never been a place where women have found justice for the violence perpetrated against them. There are some examples in this very thread. They are not the exceptions. Read them again. Read "The Story of Jane Doe: A Book About Rape". Jane Doe was the exception in that her rapist was arrested, tried and convicted of raping her and other women. And there were specific reasons this happened, most of them having nothing to do with the acts of rape he committed. Jane also (successfullly, but it took 10 years) sued the Toronto Police for not issuing warnings about the serial rapist in her neighbourhood, as a "tactic" to use women as bait to catch him. Never mind the women he further raped and terrorized. It was Jane's actions of posting his image around the neighbourhood that led to his arrest.
If this is the direction this new bump in this old thread is going, I need to remind you guys that it's the feminist forum.
Mansplaining in the feminism forum. I'm lovin' it!
Thanks, Maysie.
"nd Bacchus, sorry, but cry me a fucking river for the cops. She has to live there, with him, and deal with him, knowing the cops can't do anything until she's badly beaten or dead. Imagine living with that fear. Imagine that, as we chat about this. In the feminist forum."
Not to mention, that should she retaliate and he has the bruises when the cops come, she gets arrested.
Michael Enright's opening editorial on today's (feb 5) Sunday Edition is worth listening to.
On the issue of the Shafia murder trial and so-called honour killings, he begins by drawing a comparison with talking with his sons after learning about the Montreal Massacre.
He ends by touching on the call by some pundits for new immigrants to receive instruction in "Canadian values" - specifically not attacking and murdering women. He says he thinks it is a good idea - one which should probably be extended to include all men in Canada.
If the podcast isn't up yet, I expect it should be soon, for anyone interested.
http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/
I do like Michael Enright. Recall the debate around the extradition of Roman Polanski to the US a couple of years ago, when Michael said, after a reasoned consideration of both sides, concluded with, "The man drugged and raped a 13 year old girl. He needs to be brought back to the United States in leg irons and a choke chain."
The trouble I have with this is it not only isn't true, necessarily, but it helps provide societal justification for lack of intervention.
Plus, I haven't been in too many violent situations, I have never stopped to consider how the people are going to react, even if I might be aware of that dynamic.
Usually in situations like that things happen so fast that either you intervene or you do not
On the rare occassions when women are attacked in public places, people tend to intervene, and quickly. Most abusers are clever enough to abuse their partners in private, forcing the woman into a position of having to disclose something that has not been witnessed, putting not only her personal safety, but also her credibility on the line.
So an abused woman has to face her own personal Stockholm syndrome that locks her into a dysfunctional dynamic, but also she has to speak out in a way that feels, well, rather rude. To say nasty things about your partner feels churlish.
My sister used to be a cop, and she said she has observed it to be true some number of times out of ten. The abused woman will sometimes become ferocious in defending her abuser in cases where he is threatened with removal from the home. And the cops will tend to always remove the larger and stronger male during domestic calls. And the abuse starts all over again after he's released from a holding facility. The women often have nowhere to go, or are afraid to strike out on their own for whatever reasons. There is an appalling lack of social housing in Canada. I think women just don't have the range of choices that they should have and too often feel trapped in bad situations.
It's surprising what does happen sometimes. I've observed bullies mesmerize dozens of people at a time before someone actually says something.
ETA: I'm not from the Toronto area or any of the big cities. I don't know if they have training for women at the Cabbagetown club or not. I know they've produced some tough customers over the years, though. In Ottawa there is the Beaver boxing club. Most aggressors will not want to deal with a woman who can defend herself. Those guys will teach you how to throw punches in bunches and even to avoid them.
Stephen Harper to the rescue - in my riding, no less. The story also has some snippets about Saulie Zajdel, the long-time municipal politician who ran for the Conservatives last year in Mount Royal, trying to out-Zionize Irwin Cotler, and lost - and was promptly put on staff by Heritage Minister James Moore, to carry on Harper's work of infiltrating cultural communities:
Project to combat “honour crimes” gets $348,150 grant from Ottawa: Prime Minister Stephen Harper makes Shield of Athena Family Services announcement in Montreal
if you ask me why men rape, i'd say this:
-they can get away with it and they know it. it's been mentioned here several times that up to 90% are unreported.
-the idea of women as people in most cultures is a really recent phenomenon. Humans have been around for tens of thousands of years, women have been recognized as people for a few decades. That power dynamic is built into our culture in ways we can't even begin to understand. It's not "thou shalt not rape" it's don't rape your NEIGHBORS wife....spousal abuse wasn't even a crime until very recently, it was looked at as normal for thousands of years.
-rape is a way to humiliate someone in a psychological way that can't be acheived solely with violence. in other words you don't just want to hurt the victim, but do long term mental damage. like nuclear weapons, it's not just the actual physical toll it takes, but it's the ongoing psychological impact that makes it so effective as a means to control and humiliate.
Since you seem disinclined to listen to those with more knowledge and authority on this issue, I will repeat what has already been said over and over again. The solution is not for women to learn to better protect themselves. The solution is for men to stop abusing women.
The feminist forum is not an area of this board where a lack of understanding of the issues is easily tolerated. Unless you can speak with real understanding of the issue of violence against women (and no, your sister the cop doesn't provide that credibility for you) I strongly suggest you refrain from posting in this thread.
milo, individual men rape and attack women in the context of a society that encourages this behaviour, allows it, and approves of it.
Speculating why individual men rape will not end rape culture.
What is rape culture?
Transforming a Rape Culture
Rape Culture 101
I started this thread a very long time ago and its intention is not to educate men on the basics.
If you insist on sticking to analyzing the behaviour of individual men, that very narrow view will not get you far. Decades of feminist history and theory has created an excellent theory and framework through which to understand, break down, and eradicate rape culture, and violence against women in general.
It's the application to real life that's the problem, which is what I was aiming for in starting this thread.
I didn't read milo204 as "insist[ing] on sticking to analyzing the behaviour of individual men".
For example, you write:
Milo204 writes:
It seems to me that milo204's post is not at all antithetical to analysing rape from a systemic perspective. No...?
i agree i'm probably not offering any unique insights to you, but the question was asked of men, why do we think men rape...that's what i think. you can take that for what you will, but i'd respectfully disagree that my position is ignoring that "individual men rape and attack women in the context of a society that encourages this behaviour, allows it, and approves of it."
That's really what i was trying get at by pointing out that rape and sexism in our culture is thousands of years old. While we might, like racism, publicly disapprove on the surface it none the less persists in the culture because thousands of years of history is not easily undone. And as you point out, it's a pretty small percentage of people who are even aware of the feminist theory on this (both men and women), which clearly is not something that is a part of mainstream culture.
and perhaps that answers the question. when a critical mass of people ARE aware of that viewpoint and it DOES become a part of our cultural discourse moving forward, we might begin to deal with issues such as systemic sexism and racism. The problem is how do you move the conversation we're having here to a place where the mainstream culture is exposed to it and accepts it. For that there's no easy way which makes me think it's going to take many many years, maybe hundreds of years to reverse this culture.