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We know. You think things haven't changed in the last 100 years and said so upthread. We can simply round-up 80 guys and sail on the Granma down the Ottawa River and storm Parliament. And then Yanqui imperialists can simply forget about owning majority shares in three dozen key sectors of Canada's economy, because we'll arm our guys with rifles and pitchforks when the US Military comes calling to defend US interests in Canada - thousands and thousands of US corporate interests. And then after we kick Yanqui imperialist ass, the workers will seize the factories. It's either that or the Yanks will go through us like shit through a goose for seizing thousands of US corporate interests in the northern ice box. Labour militancy? Gotcha and roger that. I like a good challenge, too. It's all good.
I'd appreciate if certain people could open another thread to discuss whatever the content of the above posts is (sorry, it's beyond me). This thread is about labour mobilization in the EMD situation, and it's in the Labour and Consumption forum. Thanks loads.
I've never read so much idiotic anti-worker and anti-NDP rhetorical bullshit all in the same place. I didn't think it possible to fit so much smelly bullshit into one thread. Someone open a window.
The NDP will be judged by how well they support the workers. The workers will never be judged by how far they support the NDP.
And part of the judgment was already rendered early in this thread, by the first poster who brought the NDP into this equation:
What he couldn't predict was that someone would "scream invective" against Danny Williams for "turning back the clock". It is truly shameful when a millionaire conservative shows more courage to defend the rights of workers and of the nation than those unimaginative souls who "have no appetite".
But it's ok. The NDP is not involved in the EMD crisis. The workers are. And whether they have the strength to influence Caterpillar and McGuinty and Harper, or not, will depend only on one thing: their strength, their unity, and their allies. Try to remember that no matter what party we favour at the polls (or what candidate in the threads), if we are not allies of the workers, we are nothing.
This sounds like it was directly out of an employee handbook in a Right to Work state...
I wonder if this is basically going to be the conditions of employment in Indiana???
Right to Work is one of the biggest,most insidious canards going for working people.It is always sold as trying to "stand up for the individuals freedom in the workplace".But when one looks into the history of it (starting with the Taft-Hartley Act)and the well heeled groups that promote it (The National Association of Manufacturers,The Koch Bros. and thier many tentacled free market think tanks like the Cato Institute),workers freedom in the workplace is a long way down the list of priorities...
It is nothing more than legislative union busting.If one delves into the geography of RTW,one finds that it tends to take place in the Mid-Western states and the Southeastern states.Not so ironically,these states have amongst the lowest levels of education,the lowest standards of living,and,the highest levels of industrial injury and death in the US....But at least they are "free"!!!In otherwords,"Right to Work" is simply the "right" to be willingly poor.
Sadly,I agree with you that it's simply a matter of time that some form of "Made in Canada" Right to Work legislation is passed by our Minister of Management (Lisa Rait) through the PMO.If I miss my guess,the Wild Rose Alliance has RTW in it's platform?I'm trying to figure out how they are going to sell it,though?I suppose we'll see the tried and true NAM/Koch Bros. "persoanl freedom" canard along with the played out perjorative like "Corrupt Union Bosses!" crapola..But I think they may use something I heared Ron Paul say a few weeks ago in the Republican debates when talking about a national RTW plan...RTW is going to needed to stop the "union problem" and to be "competative" with China.Of course,Mr. Freedom and US Constitution" Ron Paul kinda let the cat outta the bag on that one because he was basically saying what we all knew,but the Free Marketeers never admit...
RTW is about legislatively keeping that standard of living low and allowing business to have a free reign over the workplace.It never was,or is,about the sanctity of workplace rights for the average worker
I wouldn't have thought the Toronto Star's business columnist would be part of that small sector of the NDP. David Olive:
Admittedly that's just one of the ideas he tosses out. But I don't get the impression he's being facetious.
Thanks, pogge.
Some NDPers feel that nationalization would arouse Bay Street and Wall Street. They'd come kill us, or even worse, stop "investing" and "creating jobs".
Business people like David Olive and Danny Williams understand the world a bit better. They're not afraid to "play hardball" to defend their interests.
Let's play hardball.
but even if we did nationalize the plant, cat owns rights to all the technology of EMD so doesn't that kind of throw a wrench in the idea?
what would they do with the plant? to me it would be smarter to go for nationalizing plants/industries that aren't yet taken over or controlled by multinationals...before it's too late.
And apparently some of us think that thousands of predatory takeovers of Canadian corporations and valuable crown assets by rich Americans since 1985 and financed by Canadian banks using the savings of Canadians isn't a problem. Apparently they think there should be thousands more takeovers, and that the NDP had been wrong for speaking out against the rubberstamp approvals of these takeovers, like Electro-Motive in 2010. In fact, I think those people will tend to regurgitate any idiotic, pro-stoogeaucracy nonsense sooner than give the NDP credit for demanding an end to pawning off control of our manufacturing sector and economic sovereignty in general to foreign interests.
Danny Williams' nationalisation of Abitibibowater is turning out to be just another corporate welfare handout with overall cost of the cleanup and payoffs already at nearly a quarter of a billion dollars. And the NAFTA dispute tribunal isn't located in Canada - it's down there in one of those right-to-work states. That was one of many smooth moves by the strangler from Shawinigan and "pro Canadian worker"/stoogeaucrat John Manley in 1994. Carrot Top in Washington took Chretien's government and dozens of government lawyers for a big ride while throwing the ultimate fuck into Canadian workers.
The anti-Canadian worker, anti-NDP rhetoric in this thread has been laughable to the say the least. And it's quite sad actually.
Come on guys, you've really gotten off-topic here. If you want to start a discussion about what a Federal NDP Government could/couldn't/would/wouldn't do, why not just start a thread about that? Wouldn't it be better to keep the focus on the workers and the company?
Gaian, your contempt for the workers and their union - at a time when they are under attack - is pretty overpowering. You wouldn't dare say this about any other oppressed group who were just looking for allies and for ways to fight back. You ridicule them for wanting to "put on a show" instead of just placing their fate in the hands of impotent and lying politicians. Your remarks demonstrate how easy it is in our society to scorn workers and unions, and blame them for their own plight.
All that is not surprising, in a society built upon exploitation of working people. It's a little disappointing on a discussion board that aims to avoid the kinds of comments we can read in the MSM.
If the union calls for nationalizing the plant (and I haven't heard that yet), we should support them.
It's a tactic, milo. It's a means of punishing the company, by taking over some of their assets. It's like when workers occupy a plant that's announced a closure, or just a strike or lockout, where the aim is simply to stop the employer from removing products or equipment from the property. Locomotives must run about $2 million apiece? An occupation could put some pressure, at least to get a severance deal.
I agree it's not like nationalizing a resource extracting outfit, or a utility. But this isn't a discussion about whether the state should nationalize everything. It's simply about a struggle where the employer has taken the ultimate step of saying, "ok, we're leaving" - and one possible tactic in response is, "good - but you're not taking anything with you". Their assets could be frozen - action could be taken against other holdings that Progress Rail and Caterpillar have in Canada. It's a battle, not a political program. And no, I don't think the Canadian or Ontario government desperately need to be in the business of manufacturing locomotives right now. But if the union makes the call, shouldn't we support them?
Well said.
I find this doctrinaire dispute going on here interesting, but rather obscure. Might be good for a thread where the positions can be sharpened.
Closing for length, and continuing here.