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Syria 3

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Merowe
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Today's Dem Now (Feb 7/12)  has a very pertinent interview with a Brit journalist, Patrick Seale, who does as good a job as any I've yet heard, of not just acknowledging the complexity of matters there but correctly identifying the different interests at play.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Syria Standoff No Arab Spring - Former Russian PM

http://rt.com/politics/syria-arab-primakov-foreign-561/

"Russia spared no effort to enable dialogue between the Syrian authorities and opposition, but the opposition refused all offers Primakov writes, suggesting that the reason behind this could be foreign political advice. Primakov goes on to disclose the plan of those wanting to displace President Assad.

He says the US and its NATO allies [Canada] seek to use the current situation in the Arab world to remove leaders with whom they are not happy - primarily due to their support for Iran.."

Canada Joins in Diplomatic Offensive Against Assad Regime

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canada-joins-in-diplomatic-off...

"...US President Barack Obama said the Syrian leader's departure is only a matter of time.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper plans to broach Beijing's ongoing support for the Assad government during his trip to China this week - but he faces a delicate task as he will be keen not to derail expanding bilateral relations.

'China does not accept the accusation that it is protecting Mr al-Assad's regime while it wages war against its own people, Mr Liu said. 'China does not have its own selfish interest on the isssue of Syria. We don't shelter anyone. We uphold justice on the Syrian issue.'

Canada also plans to raise its concerns about Iran's nuclear-program and threats toward Israel. But Mr Harper would be naive to assume President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabo will be listening when he meets them this week."


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

NDP complains that Stephen Harper is not hawkish enough on Syria.

"Get in there, Steve, and flex those imperialist muscles," NDP foreign affairs critic says.

 


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Here's the Patrick Seale Interview referred to above by Merowe: (and vid)

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/2/7/a_struggle_for_regional_supremacy_s...

 


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

Look, if it becomes clear that the Syrian people are not going to be able to stop Assad from slaughtering them by the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands, etc., does the "anti-imperialist" position HAVE to be that everybody outside of Syria is obligated to stand aside and let him do that?

Why does opposition to imperialism have to mean letting a head of state bomb his own people into subservience?

I'm against NATO intervention and for the "third choice" option in the Al Jazeera link above...but, Christ, does "anti-imperialism" HAVE to mean doing nothing while people are being massacred by the government they live under for no reason?

What, if anything, would be any non-imperialist way of acting to prevent the massive loss of innocent life that's going on now in Syria?

And how does saying "Hands off Assad" serve any radical purpose at all?  It's not as if you have to say "Leave Syria alone, no matter what" in order to fight against intervention in Venezuela or Bolivia or Cuba.

Clearly, no revolutionary goal could be furthered by letting Assad stay in power and keep doing all this.  There's no way the loss of all these people could lead to a socialist future for the world.

Seems to me that this is taking the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing to an insanely ludicrous extreme.


JKR
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Joined: Jan 15 2005

M. Spector wrote:

Imperialism or fascism? There is a third option.

This is a great way to comprehend the issue.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

West, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Curb Syrian National Dialogue (and vid)

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/225602.html

"After failing to ratify an anti-Syria resolution at the UN, the US-backed Persian Gulf kingdoms of Qatar and S. Arabia have started using other methods to escalate pressure on this country. Press TV has talked with Ahmad Shalash, the chief of al-Basaraya tribe from Damascus about his insights on the Syrian unrest..."


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Ken Burch wrote:

What, if anything, would be any non-imperialist way of acting to prevent the massive loss of innocent life that's going on now in Syria?

Heavy indeed lies the white man's burden!

 

"It's not that we want to be imperialists; we're just forced to be imperialists by the Saddams and the Qaddafis and the Assads.

"It's all for the good of humanity, dont'cha know."

- the lament of the Predator-drone humanitarians.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, if it becomes clear that the Syrian people are not going to be able to stop Assad from slaughtering them by the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands, etc., does the "anti-imperialist" position HAVE to be that everybody outside of Syria is obligated to stand aside and let him do that?

Good question.

What if, election after election, it becomes clear that a radical right-wing party continues to impose its dictatorship over a population although a clear majority votes against it in every election?

Would foreign invasion be justified to unseat that dictatorial regime?

 


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

M. Spector wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

What, if anything, would be any non-imperialist way of acting to prevent the massive loss of innocent life that's going on now in Syria?

Heavy indeed lies the white man's burden!

 

"It's not that we want to be imperialists; we're just forced to be imperialists by the Saddams and the Qaddafis and the Assads.

"It's all for the good of humanity, dont'cha know."

- the lament of the Predator-drone humanitarians.

I'm as anti-Predator and anti-imperialism as you are, Spector.  I'm just asking if any outside intervention HAS to be considered imperialist.  The International Brigades, after all, were outside intervention in the affairs of Spain.


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, if it becomes clear that the Syrian people are not going to be able to stop Assad from slaughtering them by the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands, etc., does the "anti-imperialist" position HAVE to be that everybody outside of Syria is obligated to stand aside and let him do that?

Good question.

What if, election after election, it becomes clear that a radical right-wing party continues to impose its dictatorship over a population although a clear majority votes against it in every election?

Would foreign invasion be justified to unseat that dictatorial regime?

 

Well, that is what it took to stop Hitler.  He was never going to be overthrown by internal forces.   Besides, if you took some of the arguments in this thread to their logical extreme, you'd end up arguing that Britain, France and the U.S. were being "anti-imperialist" in letting Franco bomb the shit out of Guernica without doing anything to stop him.

Is there some way, at the least, to do something to help the anti-Assad people in Syria(who are, after all, the only ones who want the police state thing there to end)as this situation goes on?


welder
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

Fidel wrote:

Adolf Hitler on 9/1/39 wrote:
Deputies, if the German Government and its Leader patiently endured such treatment Germany would deserve only to disappear from the political stage. But I am wrongly judged if my love of peace and my patience are mistaken for weakness or even cowardice. I, therefore, decided last night and informed the British Government that in these circumstances I can no longer find any willingness on the part of the Polish Government to conduct serious negotiations with us.

These proposals for mediation have failed because in the meanwhile there, first of all, came as an answer the sudden Polish general mobilization, followed by more Polish atrocities. These were again repeated last night. Recently in one night there were as many as twenty-one frontier incidents: last night there were fourteen, of which three were quite serious. I have, therefore, resolved to speak to Poland in the same language that Poland for months past has used toward us. This attitude on the part of the Reich will not change.

Adolf Hitler on the SS' covert terrorist attacks at Gleiwitz and falsely blamed on Polish nationals on the eve of launching blitzkrieg over Poland.

 

Interesting you bring up Adolph Hitler in the face of apparent covert attempts to usurp the Ba'Athist regime in Syria...

 

Ba'Athism,of course,having roots in European Fascism,but,that's another discussion...

 

However,since your so up on Islamofasci..Oops...Militant Islam...Could you elucidate for all of us the goings on with The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem(circa 194,'41),his ties to Hitler,the Nazi Party,and more specifically,the SS....And...The brigade The Grand Mufti sent to Yugoslavia???

 

 

How this ties in with Yasser Arafat (not his real name),the wacky and zany Hamas Manifesto,and,the general tone of the folks calling the shots in Tehran?

 

And please Fidel,for the love of everything that's cool...Please don't turn this into a "But the US and Capitalism is really really bad!!!" obfuscation...Just deal with the questions asked... 


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

We can't wage a Western war to wipe out Baathism, welder.  All doing that would do would be to strengthen Baathism.  And what the hell does Arafat's name have to do with anything?  A lot of leaders of various causes changed their names...does that matter?


welder
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Look, if it becomes clear that the Syrian people are not going to be able to stop Assad from slaughtering them by the thousands, the tens of thousands, the hundreds of thousands, etc., does the "anti-imperialist" position HAVE to be that everybody outside of Syria is obligated to stand aside and let him do that?

Good question.

What if, election after election, it becomes clear that a radical right-wing party continues to impose its dictatorship over a population although a clear majority votes against it in every election?

Would foreign invasion be justified to unseat that dictatorial regime?

 

Well, that is what it took to stop Hitler.  He was never going to be overthrown by internal forces.   Besides, if you took some of the arguments in this thread to their logical extreme, you'd end up arguing that Britain, France and the U.S. were being "anti-imperialist" in letting Franco bomb the shit out of Guernica without doing anything to stop him.

Is there some way, at the least, to do something to help the anti-Assad people in Syria(who are, after all, the only ones who want the police state thing there to end)as this situation goes on?

 

Is'nt this how Fascist regimes maintain power when thier own populace turns against them?

These bloodthirsty Ba'Athists will not stop because they want power for the sake of power...The Assad's have done this before and clearly,have no compunction about decimating their own people again.Totalitarian gov't's of all stripes care very little of the people they lord over...

 

The problem here,besides the card carrying members of the Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theory Society,is that doing nothing will guarantee hundreds of thousands of deaths of people who are essentially under the lash of a brutal dictatorship.I don't see that as heroic at all....


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist wrote:

What if, election after election, it becomes clear that a radical right-wing party continues to impose its dictatorship over a population although a clear majority votes against it in every election?

Would foreign invasion be justified to unseat that dictatorial regime?

 

Well, that is what it took to stop Hitler.

Umm, I was referring to the Harper regime - and how we would view a Russian-Chinese invasion, invited by some "insurgents", to overthrow it.

Quote:
Besides, if you took some of the arguments in this thread to their logical extreme, you'd end up arguing that Britain, France and the U.S. were being "anti-imperialist" in letting Franco bomb the shit out of Guernica without doing anything to stop him.

You may have forgotten that it was Hitler's Luftwaffe - not Franco - that bombed the shit out of Guernica. Franco's invasion from North Africa, in alliance with Germany and Italy, was a clear instance of international aggression aimed at overthrowing the Spanish republican government. The international community would have been entirely within its rights - and obligations - to intervene on the side of the victim of aggression. Nuremburg established that principle and the United Nations enshrined it. Doesn't mean they uphold it very consistently.

Quote:
Is there some way, at the least, to do something to help the anti-Assad people in Syria(who are, after all, the only ones who want the police state thing there to end)as this situation goes on?

The anti-Assad people? As opposed to the innumerable pro-Assad people? No, I think international intervention to support an insurgent force is against international law, and it's not a good idea for you to decide what the Syrian people want. It's a civil war, by all accounts. That's why these days, new excuses have to be invented. "He's committing genocide against his own people." That's a good one, works well. Better than, "They won't let their females go to school."


welder
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

Ken Burch wrote:

We can't wage a Western war to wipe out Baathism, welder.  All doing that would do would be to strengthen Baathism.  And what the hell does Arafat's name have to do with anything?  A lot of leaders of various causes changed their names...does that matter?

 

I don't disagree....It seems Ba'Athism,or Pan-Arab Nationalism,is basically in its death throes...And not a moment too soon,in my estimation...

 

And the other stuff is basicaly shooting holes in the conspiracy theory of ol' Fidel...

 

Check out who Arafat was related to and how it ties into The Grand Mufti vis a vis Herr Schickelgruber...And them note the modern attitudes of the fun loving folks in Hamas and the folks in Tehran...

 

Very interesting...And scary! 


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

The Baathists are what you say they are.  But what has produced the cynicism about outside intervention among many here is the way that such interventions, in the past, have led to Western takeovers of the countries where the intervention occurred(as was the case in Iraq, which is now nothing but an American colony).

 

Really, what we need here, perhaps,  is an international movement to give the UN peacekeeping forces the capacity to have a real effect in keeping warring factions apart, since the U.S.(my country)has made it clear that it won't intervene anywhere without "getting something" in return.

Or, we need a new system of International Brigades to be able to intervene on behalf of civilian populations without being tied to anybody's imperial agenda.


welder
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

Unionist wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Unionist wrote:

What if, election after election, it becomes clear that a radical right-wing party continues to impose its dictatorship over a population although a clear majority votes against it in every election?

Would foreign invasion be justified to unseat that dictatorial regime?

 

Well, that is what it took to stop Hitler.

Umm, I was referring to the Harper regime - and how we would view a Russian-Chinese invasion, invited by some "insurgents", to overthrow it.

Quote:
Besides, if you took some of the arguments in this thread to their logical extreme, you'd end up arguing that Britain, France and the U.S. were being "anti-imperialist" in letting Franco bomb the shit out of Guernica without doing anything to stop him.

You may have forgotten that it was Hitler's Luftwaffe - not Franco - that bombed the shit out of Guernica. Franco's invasion from North Africa, in alliance with Germany and Italy, was a clear instance of international aggression aimed at overthrowing the Spanish republican government. The international community would have been entirely within its rights - and obligations - to intervene on the side of the victim of aggression. Nuremburg established that principle and the United Nations enshrined it. Doesn't mean they uphold it very consistently.

Quote:
Is there some way, at the least, to do something to help the anti-Assad people in Syria(who are, after all, the only ones who want the police state thing there to end)as this situation goes on?

The anti-Assad people? As opposed to the innumerable pro-Assad people? No, I think international intervention to support an insurgent force is against international law, and it's not a good idea for you to decide what the Syrian people want. It's a civil war, by all accounts. That's why these days, new excuses have to be invented. "He's committing genocide against his own people." That's a good one, works well. Better than, "They won't let their females go to school."

 

Interesting...

 

What are your feelings on Stalin's involvment and arming of the Republican side during The Spanish Civil War??

The Chinese involvment in the Korean conflict?

The Soviet involvment in Viet Nam?


welder
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Joined: Dec 1 2009

Ken Burch wrote:

The Baathists are what you say they are.  But what has produced the cynicism about outside intervention among many here is the way that such interventions, in the past, have led to Western takeovers of the countries where the intervention occurred(as was the case in Iraq, which is now nothing but an American colony).

 

Really, what we need here, perhaps,  is an international movement to give the UN peacekeeping forces the capacity to have a real effect in keeping warring factions apart, since the U.S.(my country)has made it clear that it won't intervene anywhere without "getting something" in return.

Or, we need a new system of International Brigades to be able to intervene on behalf of civilian populations without being tied to anybody's imperial agenda.

 

While I might entetain the idea of subterfuge in Libya,I'm fairly certain this is not the case in Egypt and I don't think this is the case in Syria.I think many people in Syria have seem what has happened in neighbouring countries and have decided the struggle was worth it.I have always felt that Syria,short of Saudi Arabia,would be the toughest nut to crack in the overthrow of these despotic regimes in the Arab world mainly because of the murderous history of the Assad's.

They simply don't care about the people they rule over...I assume they think of them as nothing more than extraneous obstacles to be done away with as quickly as possible when they get out of line.The problem with peacekeeping,in this case,is that The Assad's would most likely attempt to kill the peacekeepers,along with the Syrians standing up to them.

 

And as far as the US goes in this conflict...

 

 

1.The US is broke...This would most likely be a lengthy protracted military engagement and the US cannot afford this.

 

2.This is an election year,and after getting rid of Osama Bin Laden and withdrawing from Iraq (sort of),Mr.Obama is'nt likely to go rushing headlong into another contretemps in the Middle East.


Unionist
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Joined: Dec 11 2005

welder wrote:

What are your feelings on Stalin's involvment and arming of the Republican side during The Spanish Civil War??

Not sure what you mean by "involvement". I don't recall Stalin bombing Spanish cities, or sending Soviet troops in, if that's what you mean. And I guess you mean the Republican government? I don't like arms sales, but every government in the world buys arms as far as I know, and that's considered as a legitimate exercise of sovereignty.

Quote:
The Chinese involvment in the Korean conflict?

Can't answer - don't know enough.

Quote:
The Soviet involvment in Viet Nam?

Same question as before - what "involvement"? I do recall the "involvement" of the U.S., Australia, many other countries that sent invasionary troops, bombed cities, and napalmed the population. I don't recall the Soviets doing anything like that. Do you mean selling arms again, to the government of North Viet Nam? That would have been lawful.

 

 


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Syria Hotbed of Major Geopolitical Games (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/syria-resolution-geopolitcal-game-115/

"The interest of Syria for the Western powers is great proximity to Israel,' the author and journalist claims underlining the importance of the geopolitical  factor in this case rather than energy interests. 'It (Syria) has been a party in the war against Israel, it's one of the big opponents of the Israeli state,' he explained. 'There is an arc - Lebanon-Syria-Iran - of geopolitical opposition to Israel and to America's role in the Middle East.

Dr. Chandra Muzaffar, the President of the International Movement for a Just World, told RT 'Both Russia and China knew that a resolution by the Security Council opens the door for military intervention by NATO,' he says. 'It would be another attempt to oust an Arab government and replace it with a government which is sympathetic to  the larger geopolitical aims of Washington, London, Paris, [Ottawa] and other Western countries..."

Syrian Opposition Agrees to Russian Mediation (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/syria-opposition-assad-talks-709/

"President of the Arab Lawyers' Association, Sabah al-Muktar, believes the West has little interest in a peaceful resolution to the conflict. He told RT that the Western powers are careless about the bloodshed. 'NATO and the European counties killed enough Libyans under the pretext that they were giving them democracy. They've done the same thing in Iraq, where they killed almost a million people.'

John Rees, a political activist and national officer of the STOP THE WAR Coalition in London, told RT that there is a more serious conflict unravelling over events in Syria - one between the world's major powers. 'One of the dangerous things about the talk of intervention in Syria is it now is producing a conflict between major powers themselves. When that begins to happen then wholly different orders of danger are involved.."


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

welder wrote:
What are your feelings on Stalin's involvment and arming of the Republican side during The Spanish Civil War??

It was an important first test of the Russian T-34 tanks. By 1943 the fascist government of Spain had ordered 100 Panzer tanks but only 20 were delivered due to problems with logistics.

Quote:
The Chinese involvment in the Korean conflict?

It was an opportunity for Gladio allies to learn that land war in Asia is not such a good idea.

Quote:
The Soviet involvment in Viet Nam?

The whole world discovered that not only was the U.S. Military government on the wrong side of that one, they were the wrong side.


Bec.De.Corbin
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Joined: Mar 17 2010

Fidel wrote:

welder wrote:
What are your feelings on Stalin's involvment and arming of the Republican side during The Spanish Civil War??

It was an important first test of the Russian T-34 tanks. By 1943 the fascist government of Spain had ordered 100 Panzer tanks but only 20 were delivered due to problems with logistics.

I don't know where you get your armored vehical history from but the T-34 was not sent to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)... the Soviets sent a little over 300 BT-5 and older T-26 light tanks to support the Republicans. Many were crewed by Soviet "advisers".

The T-34 did not see combat till 1941 with the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Syrian Opposition Getting 'Daily Shipments' of Arms (and vid)

http://rt.com/news/syria-opposition-weapon-smuggling-843/

"With recent reports of fierce fighting in Homs, many wonder where the opposition is getting so many arms from. No wonder, argues Professor Ibrahim Alloush, as 'weaponry is being smuggled into Syria in large quantities from all over the place.

'It is pretty clear that the rebels have been receiving arms from abroad and Syrian television has been showing almost daily shipments of arms being smuggled into Syria via Lebanon, Turkey and other border crossings. Since the rebels are being supported by the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council) and by NATO, it is safe to assume that they are getting their financing and weaponry from the same sources that are offering them political cover and financial backing,' he explained.

'What we are dealing with here is an armed rebellion that does not express the will of the Syrian people."


Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
the Soviets sent a little over 300 BT-5 and older T-26 light tanks to support the Republicans.

Which more than outmatched the PzKpfw I employed by the other 'advisors.'


Bec.De.Corbin
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Joined: Mar 17 2010

Slumberjack wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
the Soviets sent a little over 300 BT-5 and older T-26 light tanks to support the Republicans.

Which more than outmatched the PzKpfw I employed by the other 'advisors.'

 

(impressive)

 

  

Yes, you are correct. The T-26 was quite the Tiger tank of the Spanish Civil war. The Nationalists even offered a substantial reward for a captured T-26.

 

On a related note I'm seeing more and more armored vehicles showing up on the FSA side on YouTube... including a few tanks. Does that mean it's the end for Assad? Hardly, but it does show there's cracks starting to appear in his military. How serious that is only time will tell.

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

Fidel wrote:

welder wrote:
What are your feelings on Stalin's involvment and arming of the Republican side during The Spanish Civil War??

It was an important first test of the Russian T-34 tanks. By 1943 the fascist government of Spain had ordered 100 Panzer tanks but only 20 were delivered due to problems with logistics.

I don't know where you get your armored vehical history from but the T-34 was not sent to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)... the Soviets sent a little over 300 BT-5 and older T-26 light tanks to support the Republicans. Many were crewed by Soviet "advisers".

The T-34 did not see combat till 1941 with the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany.

 

The T-34 was derived from the BT series of tanks, some of which were sent to Spain and tested in battle. Yes, they were mostly Soviet T-26's(which also resemble the T-34 in certain ways), but I did read somewhere that those battle conditions did have some influence on the Sovs choosing to go with the T-34 by the time the Nazis invaded. 

Meanwhile Hitler, Ford, GM and Studebaker were sending thousands of trucks to Franco's side in aiding the overthrow of Spain's democratically elected leftist government. And I've never owned a Ford. Paint jobs and body metal are notoriously bad.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

US Will Continue to Arm Anti-Government Rebels in Syria (and vid)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30474.htm

"This is an insurrection funded by foreign governments" Pepe Escobar (Asia Times)


Merowe
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

A friend I made in Damascus last spring forwarded this, from a Swiss friend of hers staying near Safita:

> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 09:46:34 +0100> Subject: Re: From Basel
> From:
> To:
>
> Hello -
> Thanks for your e-mail, just came back yesterday from Syria, I had
> reserved back for the 13th but face to the actual awfull situation at
> 50 km from the village I prefered to leave the country before the
> French ambassy close. dramatic sitation during those last 3 weeks for
> everybody, no electricity every day during more than 12 hours changing
> the time of the cut, no more Diesel for the heating or less and less,
> always the same problem as always with the water but now more and
> more, since 3 days no line for calling or just a few minutes and cut,
> mobiles do not work anymore sinc Tuesday. Moreover - (in Khaled's flat in Al-Hosn, normal
> temperature around 10 - 12 degres unless sitting almost on the heater
> and as far as it works... but we cut it anyways everytime we go out
> and during the night, see the results...but for Khaled, he said that
> it was not cold...) Your's etc


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 27 2008

Syria Through a Glass, Darkly  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NB09Ak02.html

"...Syria slipping into civil war would open the door to an even more horrific regional conflagration. Here's an attempt to see through the fog.."


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