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NDP Leadership #93

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NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

Quarter of decided New Democrats would choose Mulcair for NDP leadership: poll
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Quarter+decided+Democrats+would+choose+Mulcair+leadership+poll/6146370/story.html


nicky
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Robin Sears on Power Play talking about Dewar's support in the poll; "If it was true Sunday morning, it was no longer true Sunday night."


Gonzaga
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I too was at the Québec debate yesterday. I was favourably impressed with the performances of Cullen and Ashton, though they didn't win me over. Mulcair came across very well. He seemed friendly and likeable and was clearly more at ease than the others. Dewar's French was the worst of anyone's, often incomprehensible. Nash's French is OK but she came across, I think, very poorly. Singh's French was surprisingly good.

Topp's French is almost better than Mulcair's. Most people I asked didn't take to him, but I went to his reception afterwards to ask for clarifications regarding his involvement in the Saskatchewan NDP. It didn't go well. He proudly owned Romanow's record and cited the old (and I think discredited) Romanow talking points, comparing Saskatchewan to Greece to justify its neoliberal leanings. I tried to ask him about the Gass Commission's rigged accounting, but he waved off my attempt to follow up and piled on more Romanow talking points.

I had considering supporting him, but I've changed my mind. (A) He truly stands by that the Romanow government's record (rated second best of 32, after Alberta, by the Fraser Institute); and (B) I didn't like him. Just a personal impression and based on very little, admittedly.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

JeffWells in the last thread wrote:
Stop Dewar? Stop Cullen? Stop Mulcair? Stopp Topp? It's an embarrassment of riches - I don't know who I should stop more!

No one wants to stop Ashton.

NorthReport wrote:

It would not surprise me to see Ashton end up ahead of Dewar before this is all over.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/mulcair-on-...

It will disappoint me if she doesn't.


Stockholm
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Joined: Sep 29 2002

I hate to sound nasty about this, but honestly I think that anyone supporting Dewar in view of his terrible French has to be one of two things either -

a) totally ignorant and having no idea that his Franch is such a problem and cheerfully skipping down a garden path without the slightest idea of what is in store. OR

b) delusional in thinking that his being unable to speak passable French is "no big deal" and that Quebecers will "get used to it".

I repeat my offer. If ANYONE supporting Dewar can give me a solid argument for how making him leader is NOT suicidal in Quebec (and by extension elsewhere too) - I would love to hear it! Honestly I would.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

 Boom Boom... remember Gary Malkowski from Ontario? :)

Indeed. He's now with the Canadian Hearing Society - I've been a Life Member for almost 50 years now.

He had a huge support group behind him - I have never been that blessed.


Winston
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Joined: Feb 17 2007

mark_alfred wrote:

wage zombie wrote:

Dewar's French during the debate was terrible.  "Peggy Nash, what you want do of medical user fees by Quebec government?  What policy you support?  All about us want to know your alignment."  This is the about the equivalent of what he can manage.

That's a bit sobering.

It was every bit as bad as wage zombie implies: in fact, if I am not mistaken, that's almost a verbatim translation.


GregbythePond
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Joined: Jan 7 2012

Some interesting comments from others regarding Paul. Since they can clearly see what will be the outcome - in Quebec and elsewhere - of his election to the leadership of the NDP (and the official opposition) perhaps they can also share with us which stocks to buy for a 300% return in three years.

As for the "apparent" absence of Paul Dewar supporters on babble, perhaps they realize that the votes aren't here and they are out connecting with real voting members every night?

Paul has outlined a next 70 seats plan - I believe.Wink

Considering we were nowhere in Quebec until the BQ collapsed - perhaps appeasing Quebec separtists - won't be such a great vote getter?

What I find most intolerable here is the undisguised bias and language discrimination leveled at Paul Dewar by people that seem to believe that Quebec must be "saved" at all costs.


Howard
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Joined: Aug 31 2011

Chantal Hébert is particularly devastating in her latest column on the NDP's prospects in Québec:

NDP tide in Québec is quickly receding


Lord Palmerston
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Joined: Jan 25 2004

GregbythePond wrote:

Some interesting comments from others regarding Paul. Since they can clearly see what will be the outcome - in Quebec and elsewhere - of his election to the leadership of the NDP (and the official opposition) perhaps they can also share with us which stocks to buy for a 300% return in three years.

As for the "apparent" absence of Paul Dewar supporters on babble, perhaps they realize that the votes aren't here and they are out connecting with real voting members every night?

Paul has outlined a next 70 seats plan - I believe.Wink

Considering we were nowhere in Quebec until the BQ collapsed - perhaps appeasing Quebec separtists - won't be such a great vote getter?

What I find most intolerable here is the undisguised bias and language discrimination leveled at Paul Dewar by people that seem to believe that Quebec must be "saved" at all costs.

Because it's not 1990 anymore?  


Stockholm
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I could care less about Chantal Hebert's histrionics...she wrote all kinds of columns about how the NDP was going to be wiped out right up until about two weeks before election day last year. One thing about tsunamis - usually a big wave comes in, then the entire harbour empties of water, then an even bigger wave washes in!


Stockholm
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GregbythePond wrote:

Paul has outlined a next 70 seats plan - I believe.Wink

Considering we were nowhere in Quebec until the BQ collapsed - perhaps appeasing Quebec separtists - won't be such a great vote getter?

What I find most intolerable here is the undisguised bias and language discrimination leveled at Paul Dewar by people that seem to believe that Quebec must be "saved" at all costs.

The next 70 seats plan is very nice - except that if we lose 58 seats in Quebec as a result of his inability to communicate, he better come up with a plan to pick up 130 seats not just 70!

Can you imagine if someone was running to be leader of the NDP and their English was on par with Dewar's French? Just think about that for a moment.


Howard
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Stockholm wrote:

I could care less about Chantal Hebert's histrionics...she wrote all kinds of columns about how the NDP was going to be wiped out right up until about two weeks before election day last year. One thing about tsunamis - usually a big wave comes in, then the entire harbour empties of water, then an even bigger wave washes in!

Thanks Stockholm. 


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

When has Chantal Hebert ever said anything positive about the NDP after the election?


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Wilf Day wrote:

It will disappoint me if she doesn't.

Same here. Ashton is the future of this party. Dewar would be the caretaker wrapping up the NDP's final demise.


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Stockholm wrote:

I hate to sound nasty about this, but honestly I think that anyone supporting Dewar in view of his terrible French has to be one of two things either -

a) totally ignorant and having no idea that his Franch is such a problem and cheerfully skipping down a garden path without the slightest idea of what is in store. OR

b) delusional in thinking that his being unable to speak passable French is "no big deal" and that Quebecers will "get used to it".

I repeat my offer. If ANYONE supporting Dewar can give me a solid argument for how making him leader is NOT suicidal in Quebec (and by extension elsewhere too) - I would love to hear it! Honestly I would.

I don't often agree with Stockholm, but this time I say: Go, Stock!  Great post.


KenS
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Joined: Aug 6 2001

Mia Rabson wrote:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/census2011/Odds-and-sods-from-t...

That Brian Topp is so far down the list is a bit more surprising. There are some who have said for awhile that Topp was no longer in the top four of candidates and this seems to prove it. Interesting because when Topp entered the race last September he was supposed to be unbeatable. He was first into the race. He started raising money and campaigning almost a month before Mulcair. With big endorsements from Roy Romanow and Ed Broadbent he seemed to be hard to beat. He raised more money than anyone else prior to Christmas. But if this poll is accurate Topp isn’t really in it at all anymore.

Proves what now? The "some who have been saying" that Topp is not in the top four being the same ones who did the poll that 'proves' it. :)

And the old 'hard to beat' blah-blah that never had any traction with anybody except those who liked running against this narrative.

I said earlier that I figure the Dewar poll is basically accurate [for when it was taken]... because all it says is that there is a pack of 4 after Mulcair. There is no reliability to the ranking of those 4.

I also believe Topp's campaign manager response that their polling says that 28% of members are planning on voting for Topp. He didnt say what choices are included. :)

Anything you get from campaigns is pure spin. It might even be true / accurate [for what is selected to release]. But that doesnt make it any less spin.


Hunky_Monkey
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Joined: Jun 11 2004
mark_alfred wrote:

If the NDP becomes a cheap copy of the Libs, then we'll lose.  My opinion is that Layton's direction of taking small but bold little steps toward social democracy (like opposing the war, opposing the lowering of corporate taxes, favouring coalitions) has gotten us to be the Official Opposition and to be the more trusted alternative to the the Conservatives than the Liberals are.  Why step back now?  Topp's vision of moving a little more forward toward progressive taxation is the next bold little step toward social democracy, I feel.  This will be a winner come next election, when we can contrast our vision of developing a better Canda with either Harper's or Rae's failed visions of the country.  Jack's mom knows best, and I suspect that if Jack were alive, he'd give Topp his endorsement too.

You fail to recognize that I could say the same words as Jack... but I don't have his charisma, his media ability, his likability, his gravitas, his ability on the stump... and NEITHER does Brian Topp. And for the record, Mulcair opposed the Afghan war, deeply opposes corporate income tax cuts, and was in favour of the 2008 coalition to remove Harper from office. We have progressive taxation already. To say increasing tax on the top 0.7% will make the personal income tax more fair is quite a simplistic view of our tax system. And will that be Topp's new slogan? "If Jack were alive, he'd endorse Brian Topp!"?

flight from kamakura
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Joined: Nov 24 2006

GregbythePond wrote:

Considering we were nowhere in Quebec until the BQ collapsed - perhaps appeasing Quebec separtists won't be such a great vote getter?

What I find most intolerable here is the undisguised bias and language discrimination leveled at Paul Dewar by people that seem to believe that Quebec must be "saved" at all costs.

this is nearly as incoherent as dewar's french.  who wants to 'appease separatists'?  what is 'language discrimination'?  what does 'at all costs' mean - that we don't elect the bland white guy who speaks in generalities and has almost no charisma?

if your goal is to have a leader with french poorer than turmel's english, one basically learning french so that in three years, he can run a campaign, i'm sorry, but i think you'll find a very strong 'undisguised bias' against any candidate proposing that.  in that case, why not just continue on with dewar's corollary across the outaouais, the current leader?  she has the same chops, far more experience, but the added advantage of already being in place.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

 

Quote:
We have progressive taxation already.  

 

No.


dacckon
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Lord Palmerston
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Joined: Jan 25 2004

Hunky_Monkey wrote:
To say increasing tax on the top 0.7% will make the personal income tax more fair is quite a simplistic view of our tax system.

It's necessary, but on its own not sufficient, in terms of creating a more social democratic country.


Hunky_Monkey
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Joined: Jun 11 2004
dacckon wrote:

 

Quote:
We have progressive taxation already.  

 

No.

Ah, yes, we do... sadly there are many loopholes those with means can use to avoid tax for sure. More so for corporate taxes. From Revenue Canada... •15% on the first $42,707 of taxable income, + •22% on the next $42,707 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $42,707 up to $85,414), + •26% on the next $46,992 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income over $85,414 up to $132,406), + •29% of taxable income over $132,406. In addition of course, we have provincial income taxes. Using Nova Scotia as an example... 8.79% on the first $29,590 of taxable income, + 14.95% on the next $29,590, + 16.67% on the next $33,820, + 17.5% on the next $57,000, + 21% on the amount over $150,000 Could there be more tax brackets? Sure. But we have a progressive tax system and to say we don't is really living inside an NDP bubble.

wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

Thanks for providing those figures, Hunky_Monkey.

With the example of Nova Scotia, before loophole deductions, someone earning $150,000 a year has the same basic tax rate is in the same tax bracket as someone making $15 million a year.

Do these rates apply to capital gains as well?


Lord Palmerston
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Hunky_Monkey wrote:
Could there be more tax brackets? Sure.

Mulcair doesn't seem to agree with you. 


Hunky_Monkey
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Lord Palmerston wrote:

Hunky_Monkey wrote:
Could there be more tax brackets? Sure. But we have a progressive tax system and to say we don't is really living inside an NDP bubble.

Mulcair doesn't seem to agree with you.

Unlike some on here, I'm not a paid spokesperson for the candidate I'm supporting and I have my own opinion. That said, Mulcair has said he wants to introduce a fairer personal income tax system. I'm sure you're sitting on the edge of your seat waiting... :)

Howard
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Joined: Aug 31 2011

Having watched the debate and the press conference afterwards as well as all the reviews I could get my hands on, here is my assessment of the candidates:

Tom Mulcair

Pros: He towered over the other candidates at the Québec debate. It was a really good day for him and the gap between his performance and that of the other candidates on most points was quite large. I am also getting the sense that Mulcair is already starting to campaign towards other Canadians (i.e. those not currently in the ND Party).

Cons: Mulcair continues to be sloppy on policy. This was most glaring on trade in this debate. In one response he talked about how free trade had created opportunity for Canada, in another he talked about how we have to keep jobs in Canada, but he never closed the loop. What is Mulcair's plan to simultaneously promote free trade and act domestically to protect jobs, enhance the protection of our natural resources and create value-added? I can guess at what Mulcair's plan would be, but he never explicitly states it, so once again you are left to wonder. Now to many people this may be a bit too wonkish, but consider this, most Canadians may not care about the fine points of policy or what-have-you but when I see Mulcair wax grandiose and present too seemingly conflicting ideas without an explanation of how they are reconciled I get the sense of a bullshitter and I'm sure the Canadian public will smell bullshit too if the Conservatives clip together these statements and there is nothing out there to back them up. The media will also not back us up if there is no previously released plan or ready explanation. If there is any lesson Mulcair needs to take from this sloppiness, it is that he needs to be more like Jean Chrétein to win: a man with a plan. Or at least he needs to connect his thoughts so that they are clear and make sense. Otherwise he does sound like a Liberal, with beautiful talk, but no action. This is also not Mulcair's first offence. He has soft-pedalled on his plan for revenues, he has given short shrift to the details of his carbon emissions trading idea, and he is a lot better at saying we need to give x or y study without specifying precisely what we should study and why? I am thinking about taxes. I am thinking about the massive risk he wants the federal government to take on with expansive guaranteed benefit CPP+/QPP+ pension plans. I am thinking about "priorities" like childcare, pharmacare, seniors' poverty, first nations poverty, child poverty, and many other of his worthy and costly and unaccounted for goals. Now I'm not saying Mulcair should have all the answers now in fine print and all, but I have a lot more questions than answers when it comes to his policy proposals (despite the fact that they have been improving) and that concerns me.

General concerns: Another concern I have is that I cannot speak to babbler's concern that Tom Mulcair is a "Third Way" type or not, because I don't know if he is myself. Besides asking him point-blank "are you Third Way?" Which to my mind is a way of asking, do you care about income inequality or not? Do you have any ideas for what to do about it? Do you support a foreign policy predicated on peace first, second, and third? I don't know how we or anyone else can lay these concerns to rest. For one, Tom Mulcair hasn't been very clear about what he means about leaving behind the "1950s boilerplate" and like Stockholm, I'm not convinced that this point is any more than a strawman he could/can easily tear down at any opportunity. Also, any comments in the media or otherwise, denigrating our much maligned grassroots NEEDS TO STOP. Dedicated NDPers have been shit on enough by the media, their friends, their co-workers, members of the community, etc for years that we don't need to take it from one of our own. We have had to fight for the NDP in elections were we got slaughtered, knew we were going to get slaughtered, and got up each morning and did it anyways because we believed in social democratic (or socialist) values. We donate what we have, which at times may not be a lot, but we have done it through thick and (previous to campaign finance reform) very thin. So please, show some respect.

I will post more on the other candidates subsequent to this...


wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

GregbythePond wrote:

What I find most intolerable here is the undisguised bias and language discrimination leveled at Paul Dewar by people that seem to believe that Quebec must be "saved" at all costs.

Uh oh!  Discrimination alert!  A straight white anglophone male is getting unfair biased treatment!  It's just intolerable, I tell ya.


dacckon
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Joined: May 19 2011

Mitt Romney would pay less tax here than in the U.S., thats how regressive we are. The loopholes are simply step one of the very important equation. I think we should compare ourselves to some of the most sucessful regimes of social democratic governance in places such as Scandinavia.


wage zombie
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Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Unlike some on here, I'm not a paid spokesperson for the candidate I'm supporting and I have my own opinion.

More veiled aspersions.  What crap.


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