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NDP Leadership #97

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Winston
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Joined: Feb 17 2007

Brachina wrote:
I'm confused about one thing the pundit guide suggests that the Mulcair campaign has dropped expectations on thier goal of gaining 20000 new member saying its closer to 10000. But does that mean Mulcair's campaign is under 20000 in signing new Quebec members or that there are under 20000 Quebec members period? How would Mulcair's team know how many people the other campaigns have signed up? Or even the NDP itself has signed up, after all the figures have not been made public.

Perhaps the Mulcair team has been the only ones successful at all in signing up members any numbers in Quebcec?


Hunky_Monkey
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Joined: Jun 11 2004
RevolutionPlease wrote:
wage zombie wrote:

I feel like his proposals are lacking in both substance and boldness.  Everything is vague, with details to be filled in later.  Additionally, I don't know of anything he's proposed that couldn't have been just as easily proposed by the Liberal Party.

Therein lies the rub. It worked to get Liberals elected in the past. Tom's seen how it's done. Now, can we trust him to do the opposite if he gains power?
Gee... haven't be complained for YEARS that the Liberals campaign on NDP policies? But somehow now Tom... and only Tom... is trying to be them on... policy? Am I in a twilight zone here?

Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004
This got my attention:


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

Again, if you think there's no difference between ANY of the candidates and the Federal Liberal party, here's a few words: Afghanistan, child care, Kyoto, proportional representation, home care, sherbrooke declaration...

Is there ANY substance to this paranoia?

Oh, right, "modernization". The Conservatives invented it, and now the Liberals are trying to outdo them. We might be next!!! Surprised


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

flight from kamakura wrote:

all he's saying on the tax issue is that it would be unproductive and entirely symbolic to promise to raise taxes for a budget that wouldn't be delivered until 2015 - there's no win there for the ndp.

I don't think he was that negative. I don't have a quote handy, but my recollection is that he was saying that he wanted the party to wait before adopting a tax platform, not ruling out the possibility of it including a top tax bracket increase. Am I wrong?

Brachina wrote:
I'm confused about one thing the pundit guide suggests that the Mulcair campaign has dropped expectations on thier goal of gaining 20000 new member saying its closer to 10000. But does that mean Mulcair's campaign is under 20000 in signing new Quebec members or that there are under 20000 Quebec members period? How would Mulcair's team know how many people the other campaigns have signed up? Or even the NDP itself has signed up, after all the figures have not been made public.

I assume they are lowering expectations, so they can claim success when the number is over 10,000. But we need to get it up to 25,000 if we plan to hold those seats and win a couple more. I hope we are more than half-way there.


Brachina
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Joined: Feb 15 2012
Lord Palmerston wrote:

It's kind of funny how people think unlike just about every social democratic "modernizer" who talked like Mulcair is now, Mulcair has no intention to move to the right, but rather just "update" the language.  

Has Mulcair noticed the Occupy movement?  The progressive discourse is moving leftward right now.   

Don't blame Mulcair for what Tony Blair and the third wave did, he had nothing to do with it. He supports childcare, pharmacare, cap and trade, he mentioned how he want to push Canada into a more value added economy like how Quebec banned the export of raw logs, he's made his support for fair trade and treaty protecting the enviroment, worker rights, and human rights clear, fighting against war rape, a fincial transaction tax, and still people make him out to be a crazy rightwinger. And those who keep suggesting he's third way still can't provide any evidence without fabericating things. Niki Ashton is talking about "New Politics" too does that mean she's secretly a third wayer too. People on the left of the party are too quick to label people they don't like third way, its become the left wing equilvent of red baiting. Anywho know that I made my point :) I have a simple suggestion to Nash on how to enforce the Health Act without violating Quebec's turf. Taxation changes. Boost federal taxation on private healthcare and any doctor that changes extra fees for healthcare services. The federal income and corporate taxes are federal juristiction. A 100% tax rate with absolute removal of any available tax credits or anything that would protect them from paying would put illegal private medical care out of business and cut out the profitablity of user fees. Alternately a more permanant solution would be to add the Canadian Health Act to the Constitution, but that comes with its own challenges. One question I have for all of the surviving seven is what policies of your oppentants do you approve of?

NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008

Let's have a little faith baby!

I vote for Michael Hollett as our next Communications person who is so refreshing compared to the usual claptrap "woe is me" attitude which is too frequently expressed.

Don’t swallow the defeatist gruel served by mainstream media eager to right a Jack Layton-led wrong so they can reinstall their preferred Liberal party as the government-in-waiting. Funny how the traditional press has had no problem using alleged interim Liberal leader Bob Rae as the default voice of the Opposition these last six months rather than the true Opposition’s own interim leader, Nycole Turmel.

It doesn’t help that many of the eight good candidates for NDP leadership have lost their shadow portfolios for the duration of the contest, not a recipe for putting the best people and ideas in front of media microphones. 

But the political stasis that has gripped the real Opposition is about to end, and during these next weeks the candidates should be grabbing significant airtime to speak about big issues in the process of defining themselves.

Hell, the race is finally veering from polite disagreement to a taste of the rough stuff, with candidates beating up on Peggy Nash at the last leadership debate for apparently waffling on whether Quebec has the right to buck the national guarantee of public, not private, health care. 

And Paul Dewar has been taking shots for picking French-challenged (some would say unilingual) Charlie Angus as his deputy leader should he win.

The party has mustered a good collection of candidates, some of them great and a few of whom I’d be happy to see as prime minster.

It’s essential that NDPers realize this leadership race is unlike any other. The Dippers are not selecting yet another quality person to lead a well-intentioned political grouping sitting safely on the edges of power, fated to act as a conscience but never in control.

A majority of voters do want change, despite the electoral system failings that allow a minority party to govern as if it ruled with more than 50 per cent. And at this moment of change, Canadians have been fleeing the Liberal party and flocking to the NDP. 

Jack Layton died; the NDP didn’t, despite the desperate desire of conservative politicians and their media pals. The country, like the party, is waiting for the next act. Everything changes March 24.

 


DSloth
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Joined: Apr 26 2011

Winston wrote:

Perhaps the Mulcair team has been the only ones successful at all in signing up members any numbers in Quebcec?

I'd suspect the other campaigns (with the probable exception of the former Saganash campaign) wouldn't invest a whole lot of time or money trying to sign up new members in Quebec.  It's a lot easier to track down lapsed members in other provinces where your opponent most likely to make it to the final ballot isn't already polling well north of 50%. 


Boom Boom
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Brachina wrote:
I have a simple suggestion to Nash on how to enforce the Health Act without violating Quebec's turf. Taxation changes. Boost federal taxation on private healthcare and any doctor that changes extra fees for healthcare services. 

Interesting idea, except it could be a recipe for an exodus of our health professionals to the USA.


Hunky_Monkey
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Brachina wrote:
He supports childcare, pharmacare, cap and trade, he mentioned how he want to push Canada into a more value added economy like how Quebec banned the export of raw logs, he's made his support for fair trade and treaty protecting the enviroment, worker rights, and human rights clear, fighting against war rape, a fincial transaction tax, and still people make him out to be a crazy rightwinger. And those who keep suggesting he's third way still can't provide any evidence without fabericating things. Niki Ashton is talking about "New Politics" too does that mean she's secretly a third wayer too. People on the left of the party are too quick to label people they don't like third way, its become the left wing equilvent of red baiting. Anywho know that I made my point :)
Agreed. I've said before if another candidate released Tom's proposals under their name, it would have been met with a different reaction. And we've seen Romeo go after Topp on taxes but the reaction was quite different. Yes, there was some comment but it was few and pretty mild. And then we had Peggy's slip (and I think it just that... I don't question her commitment to the Canada Health Act). If Tom had made that, poop would have hit the fan :)

mark_alfred
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Joined: Jan 3 2004

DSloth wrote:

josh wrote:
Yes, becoming more like the Liberal party is the ticket. Look how well it worked for them last time. All part of the "renewal" process I guess. If the NDP's traditional viewpoint and base seem such an anathema to Mulcair, makes you wonder why he wants to lead it.

Yeah It's almost like you're describing a ridiculous caricature of the man instead of the guy who turned down a prestigious spot with the Liberals to run for a fourth place party because he believed in them.  

He had been minister of the environment with the Quebec Liberals, but then was demoted by Charest to a lesser post (I can't recall what post exactly.)  Anyway, annoyed, he quit.  Later he ran for the NDP.


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

If the guy wanted to win, there were THREE parties where it would have been easier for him to go for the power grab. There's a reason Jack reached out to him, and there's a reason he went with a fourth-party.

Who in their right mind would become a New Democrat in Quebec before 2011, unless they genuinely agreed with what we were doing?

I can't believe I'm the guy defending Mulcair here, but the arguments against him are getting more and more inane.


Stockholm
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Joined: Sep 29 2002

There are a number of Quebec MPs back people other than Mulcair, such as Topp, Nash and Ashton (zero for Dewar for some strange reason) and I assume that they are all trying to sign up people in their ridings to vote for their favourite candidates.


Brachina
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Joined: Feb 15 2012
wage zombie wrote:

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

"Modernizing". Oh my god. Everyone knows Modernity is right-wing concept. Foot in mouth

Maybe you are not aware of this, but for decades there have been a steady stream of people who want to "modernize" social democratic parties.  They never want to move right--they just just want to change the party to make it more palatable to the masses, but of course they'll keep the values.

The problem is, when it comes time to stand up for social democratic values, they don't.

So how is Mulcair different from the many people coming before him who say the same things as he's saying now?

I don't really understand what Mulcair's offering that is new.

Mulcair has already stood up for social democratic values, when he added enviromental protection to the Quebec constitution, when he quit Charest cabinate over privatizing wetlands. I'm starting to think for some people Mulcair could promise to nationalize the entire economy and they'd just pawn it off as part of his secret rightwing conspiracy.

Winston
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Joined: Feb 17 2007

Stockholm wrote:

There are a number of Quebec MPs back people other than Mulcair, such as Topp, Nash and Ashton (zero for Dewar for some strange reason) and I assume that they are all trying to sign up people in their ridings to vote for their favourite candidates.

I'm sure they are, but I also know that Marie-Claude Morin and Francois Lapointe who are leading Mulcair's Québec membership drive have been touring all around the province, assisting all MPs (even those supporting other candidates) in signing up new members.

Link

Another Link


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

Boom Boom wrote:
This got my attention:

 

Ew. I'm voting for a candidate with better taste in furniture. Tongue out


wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Jack modernized the party in more ways than fundraising and organization. I doubt he would have stopped in his tracks in May.

What Mulcair talks about is what happened in Quebec... how we got rid of the yes, the old boilerplate language... and talked to voters in a new and inclusive way. He wants to use that model in the rest of Canada.

Ok...I thought there were a few factors in the orange wave.  Not in any particular order here, just trying to get a basic list

1. Quebecers trusted Jack.

2. The NDP addressed the national question in a satisfactory way

3. Quebecers were tiring of the streategy of voting Bloc, and felt it didn't have much to offer in terms of changing the Harper agenda

4. Quebecers believed that the NDP had a shot to win government

5. The NDP ran an optimistic campaign, focussing on hope rather than fear

I can see how number 5 is influenced by campaign language.  For the rest of it, I'm not so sure.

Can you explain a bit what you mean about talking to voters in a new and inclusive way?  What exactly is this model?

And how much of it came from Jack, how much came from Mulcair, and even, to what extent is Topp all over this too?  I can understand the boilerplate criticism applied to Nash, but I think Topp has a keen sense of messaging.


Winston
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Joined: Feb 17 2007

Doug wrote:

Ew. I'm voting for a candidate with better taste in furniture. Tongue out

I'm voting for a candidate who doesn't assume that MY taste in furniture is that hideous!


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

Doug wrote:

Ew. I'm voting for a candidate with better taste in furniture. Tongue out

How elitist! Laughing


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

wage zombie wrote:

Hunky_Monkey wrote:

Jack modernized the party in more ways than fundraising and organization. I doubt he would have stopped in his tracks in May.

What Mulcair talks about is what happened in Quebec... how we got rid of the yes, the old boilerplate language... and talked to voters in a new and inclusive way. He wants to use that model in the rest of Canada.

Ok...I thought there were a few factors in the orange wave.  Not in any particular order here, just trying to get a basic list

1. Quebecers trusted Jack.

2. The NDP addressed the national question in a satisfactory way

3. Quebecers were tiring of the streategy of voting Bloc, and felt it didn't have much to offer in terms of changing the Harper agenda

4. Quebecers believed that the NDP had a shot to win government

5. The NDP ran an optimistic campaign, focussing on hope rather than fear

I can see how number 5 is influenced by campaign language.  For the rest of it, I'm not so sure.

Can you explain a bit what you mean about talking to voters in a new and inclusive way?  What exactly is this model?

And how much of it came from Jack, how much came from Mulcair, and even, to what extent is Topp all over this too?  I can understand the boilerplate criticism applied to Nash, but I think Topp has a keen sense of messaging.

One example: up until recently, we literally translated our English press releases into French mechanically, promising that we'll deliver Child Care to all Canadians. So when I hear someone saying we need to drop the boilerplate, I take that quite literally, and think it's a good idea.


Brachina
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Joined: Feb 15 2012
mark_alfred wrote:

DSloth wrote:

josh wrote:
Yes, becoming more like the Liberal party is the ticket. Look how well it worked for them last time. All part of the "renewal" process I guess. If the NDP's traditional viewpoint and base seem such an anathema to Mulcair, makes you wonder why he wants to lead it.

Yeah It's almost like you're describing a ridiculous caricature of the man instead of the guy who turned down a prestigious spot with the Liberals to run for a fourth place party because he believed in them.  

He had been minister of the environment with the Quebec Liberals, but then was demoted by Charest to a lesser post (I can't recall what post exactly.)  Anyway, annoyed, he quit.  Later he ran for the NDP.

Way to leave out the most critical part, the reason why he was demoted, he stood up to Charest because Charest wanted to circumvent the law and ethics and basic morality and,privatize critical wet lands to appease liberal donars (aka corruptian) and Mulcair refused and was punished for it and so he left the party for its unprincipled actions. See this is what I mean by twisting the facts to fabericate the falsehood he lacks honesty and foundational principles. He says he doesn't plan to move the party to the centre and his actions have revealed him to be a man of courage, principle, and honesty. So I have every reason to be believe him. Its said its better not to believe words, its better to believe actions and his actions say he's an honest guy and that he's a true Dipper.

NorthReport
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Joined: Jul 6 2008
wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

Brachina wrote:

Don't blame Mulcair for what Tony Blair and the third wave did, he had nothing to do with it. He supports childcare, pharmacare, cap and trade, he mentioned how he want to push Canada into a more value added economy like how Quebec banned the export of raw logs, he's made his support for fair trade and treaty protecting the enviroment, worker rights, and human rights clear, fighting against war rape, a fincial transaction tax, and still people make him out to be a crazy rightwinger.

"He supports childcare, pharmacare, cap and trade"--great!  I support those things too.  But that actually tells people very little about what to expect.  Has Mulcair put out a pharmacare plan?  Or mentioned anywhere that he'd put in pharmacare?  It's like a listing of buzzwords.

So what does that mean, pushing Canada into a more value added economy?  What steps would he take to do that?

How would he support fair trade?  What does he think we need to change about NAFTA to protet the environment, workers rights, and human rights?  If he's not willing to renegotiate NAFTA, are there other ways to make gains in these areas?

A financial transaction tax sounds great?  How would it work?  What would it look like?  Has Mulcair ever mentioned it before the last debate?  Has he mentioned it since?

So no...I don't think he's made things very clear at all.


Wilf Day
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Joined: Oct 31 2002

Here's another stat: how are those in the NDP Quebec caucus who ran in or before 2006 (prior to Mulcair coming on board) endorsing?

Guy Caron, neutral

Christine Moore, undeclared

Raymond Cote, undeclared

Alain Giguere, Brian Topp

François Pilon, Thomas Mulcair

François Choquette, Niki Ashton

Denis Blanchette, undeclared

Philip Toone, Thomas Mulcair

No consensus there, eh? I could add Hoang Mai who was Quebec Party Treasurer before Mulcair came in (undeclared), and Francine Raynault (her partner ran in previous campaigns), an Ashton supporter.


Hunky_Monkey
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mark_alfred wrote:

He had been minister of the environment with the Quebec Liberals, but then was demoted by Charest to a lesser post (I can't recall what post exactly.)  Anyway, annoyed, he quit.  Later he ran for the NDP.

He was Minister of Sustainable Development, Environment and Parks with the only federalist party in Quebec. He passed North America's first Sustainable Development Act including amending Quebec's Human Rights Charter to include the right to live in a clean environment. He left when he wouldn't play ball with Charest turning over a provincial park to developers so they could build condos. You're slamming him for that?

wage zombie
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Joined: Dec 8 2004

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

One example: up until recently, we literally translated our English press releases into French mechanically, promising that we'll deliver Child Care to all Canadians. So when I hear someone saying we need to drop the boilerplate, I take that quite literally, and think it's a good idea.

Ok, that's a fair point, but it really only applies to our french communications.  It's a poor idea to literally translate.  What about the material that doesn't get translated?


Hunky_Monkey
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wage zombie wrote:

So no...I don't think he's made things very clear at all.

To be fair, I find most of the candidates proposals lacking great detail... including Topp's for example when he talks about a national nutritional program for children.

Brian Glennie
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Joined: Nov 23 2011

NorthReport wrote:

It's called leadership.

 

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=185260

Mulcair is said “not to work well with others.” Sometimes this is called commitment and charisma; Pierre Trudeau wasn’t terrific at getting along, but his persona was electrifying, and he was electoral gold for a generation despite his somewhat disagreeable approach to colleagues. Maybe Mulcair just knows what he wants.

I wish the NDP would use some better quality control over the pictures we're using of our leadership canidates.

Here's Peggy "Doesn't Look a Day Over Thirty" Nash followed by Paul "Hospital Haircut" Dewar...


TheArchitect
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Joined: Sep 15 2011

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

If the guy wanted to win, there were THREE parties where it would have been easier for him to go for the power grab. There's a reason Jack reached out to him, and there's a reason he went with a fourth-party.

Who in their right mind would become a New Democrat in Quebec before 2011, unless they genuinely agreed with what we were doing?

I'm fully aware that Mulcair decided to support the NDP rather than the Liberals or the Conservatives.  So what?  That by no means is sufficient to show that he is deeply commited to the values of the social democratic movement in Canada.

After all, 30% of voters chose to support the NDP in the last election.  Do I think that 30% of voters are profoundly commited to a social democratic philosophy?  Of course not.

The fact that one's beliefs are closer to the New Democratic Party's positions than to the Liberal Party's positions or the Conservative Party's position does not show that one really believes in a social democratic philosophy—much less that one is strongly commited to that philosophy and to the principles and values that define it.


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

wage zombie wrote:

socialdemocraticmiddle wrote:

One example: up until recently, we literally translated our English press releases into French mechanically, promising that we'll deliver Child Care to all Canadians. So when I hear someone saying we need to drop the boilerplate, I take that quite literally, and think it's a good idea.

Ok, that's a fair point, but it really only applies to our french communications.  It's a poor idea to literally translate.  What about the material that doesn't get translated?

How about this one?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/politics/article/1008690--ndp-leaving...


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