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Tar Sands Hell 3

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Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

I saw that segment on P&P. Kudos to Evan Solomon for keeping up the attack.


Boom Boom
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Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

epaulo13
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Joined: Dec 13 2009

Woodland caribou won’t get federal protection: Kent

Federal Environment Minister Peter Kent won’t be issuing an emergency order to protect the woodland caribou despite a judge's order that Kent should do so. 

Last July, Federal Court Justice Peter Crampton ordered Kent to revisit his decision not to issue an emergency order to protect the caribou.

Kent refused.

Environmental lawyers filed a request with the court last week to force the minister to comply with the judge’s ruling.

Kent is still refusing, but this time he’s explaining why.

Kent says the “the species does not face an imminent threat to survival at this time.”

The caribou are being forced out from large parts of their range, especially in Alberta’s tar sands region.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

The court did not actually order Kent to issue an emergency order. What it did do was set aside his decision not to issue an emergency order because his explanation for not doing so was inadequate, and sending it back to Kent for reconsideration.

Justice Crampton, in his reasons for judgment last July, wrote:
... where the Minister erred was in failing to provide a meaningful explanation for how he reached his conclusion not to recommend an emergency Order, given (i) the scientific and other information that was reviewed over the course of several pages in the Decision, (ii) the recovery objectives for boreal caribou set forth in the Draft Policies, and (iii) the language of subsection 80(2), the purposes of the SARA, as set forth in section 6, and the overall scheme of that legislation.

Notwithstanding the substantial scientific and other evidence that was discussed and that contradicted the overall conclusion reached by the Minister in the Decision, the Minister concluded that there are no imminent threats to the national recovery of boreal caribou in Canada. The sole basis that was provided in the Decision for that conclusion was the following:

Quote:
Although the extirpation of even the [Seven Herds] would result in further range retraction in the middle of the range of boreal caribou, it is possible to maintain a self sustaining population of boreal caribou in eastern Canada. As such, even though national recovery objectives and approaches would be constrained by the extirpation of even the 7 Alberta herds in question, the Eastern local populations could provide the basis for achieving a national recovery objective.

In my view, these very short reasons provided for the conclusion reached by the Minister do not enable me to conduct a meaningful review of the Decision... This is because the basis for the overall conclusion reached by the Minister, particularly the evidentiary basis, was not meaningfully discussed..., and the record does not otherwise explain the Minister's decision in a satisfactory manner. In the context of the Decision as a whole, this conclusion essentially came "out of the blue". The Applicants, the public and the Court are left to speculate as to:

i. the scientific basis for the conclusion that it is possible to maintain a self sustaining population of boreal caribou in eastern Canada;

ii. the content of "the national recovery objectives and approaches that would be constrained by the extirpation of" the Seven Herds;

iii. the basis upon which it was concluded that the eastern local populations could provide the basis for achieving a national recovery objective;

iv. the likelihood of achieving such national recovery objective if the Seven Herds become extirpated; and

v. the basis upon which this conclusion was considered to be consistent with the language of subsection 80(2), the purposes of the SARA, as set forth in section 6, and the SARA as a whole.

Source


Snowd
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Joined: Feb 14 2012

 The idea that Tar Sands GHG emissions are not a lot worse than other sources of GHGs - a comment made by an astute Babbler in the National News section recently - was backed up by a study noted on the CbC news today.

  It said COAL was the worst culprit. Also, oil industry people will tell you that 85% of emissions come from "tailpipes", not productionn of oil and gas - their point being that "it is driver's fault tha planet is warming, don't blame the industry" {but without any alternatives, how do people get around? you might ask... I say demand EVs and mass transit.}

   Uninformed protestors do the environment no favors by getting it wrong, even if their heart is in the right place. It is the local effects of the Tar Sands, and the potential spills from pipelines if the Gateway or Keystone XL are approved and built, as well as "the other local effects" where dilbit is refined, that are of the most concern. {"dilbit" is diluted bitumen, a slurry of chemicals such as natural gas and benzene, mixed with bitumen mined from the tar sands required to make the stuff flow in pipelines. Heat is also added to the dilbit in the pipes}

   Another consideration is efficiency - what sense does it make to put more energy into a barrel of crude oil than that barrel provides?


theleftyinvestor
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Joined: Jun 6 2008

I only read that article briefly, but my understanding of its spin was: All the economically recoverable tar sands oil is of a much smaller order of magnitude than all the recoverable coal. If you calculate how much the climate is affected by *all* the sands oil we're ever likely to recover, versus *all* the coal, then coal comes out the greater villain.

Both are very dirty sources of energy. I don't think either should be let off the hook, but this is a sneaky way of trying to pass the buck. Moreover the definition of commercially recoverable deposits changes year to year as technology gets (worse)better.


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

Perhaps  in this debate the deciding factor could be the total consumption of water in each form of energy extraction AND the relative toxicity of the tailings or other remnants and quantity of such materials, in the water.  Both quite measurable,  I'd say. 

 


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Snowd wrote:

It said COAL was the worst culprit. Also, oil industry people will tell you that 85% of emissions come from "tailpipes", not productionn of oil and gas - their point being that "it is driver's fault tha planet is warming, don't blame the industry"...

I don't know what your agenda is here, but I don't much care for it. This is oil company propaganda, pure and simple. Just because coal may be worse than oil for emissions, it doesn't excuse the mining of oilsands. In fact, the emissions produced by mining and processing bitumen into usable petroleum products vastly exceed the emissions produced in the mining of coal, and that difference exceeds any difference in the emissions caused by the combustion of either fossil fuel.

Whether the bulk of the emissions of any fossil fuel come from the "tailpipe" or the extraction from the earth is irrelevant - both the extraction and the combustion of fossil fuels cause harm to the environment and force climate change. Without the extraction there would be no combustion, so the oil companies can't play Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of the environmental damage caused by their product.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

Canada Threatens Trade War with EU Over Tar Sands

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/20/canada-eu-tar-sands

"The row over the EU's plan to label tar-sands oil as highly polluting escalates as Canada says it 'will not hesitate to defend its interests'.."

 

Oil Sands Impacts Posing 'Financial Risks' to Alberta says PCO

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Oilsands+impact+posing+financial+ri...

"Collateral damage from Canada's booming oilsands sector may be irreversible, posing a 'significant and environmental and financial risks to the province of Alberta,' says a secret memorandum prepared for the federal government's top bureaucrat..."


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

NDPP wrote:

Oil Sands Impacts Posing 'Financial Risks' to Alberta says PCO

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Oilsands+impact+posing+financial+ri...

"Collateral damage from Canada's booming oilsands sector may be irreversible, posing a 'significant and environmental and financial risks to the province of Alberta,' says a secret memorandum prepared for the federal government's top bureaucrat..."

"The oilsands are the fastest-growing source of GHG emissions in Canada," said the memo to Wouters. "According to Environment Canada's emissions trends, emissions from the oil-and-gas sector could increase by 30 per cent between 2005 and 2020, driven by a more than 200 per cent increase in emissions from the oilsand sectors. By 2020, oilsands GHG emissions could total 92 million tonnes a year, up from about 31 in 2005. This increase of 61 million tonnes is greater than the projected emissions growth for all other sectors combined."


Jesus. Makes you wonder what else the government is sitting on.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

us...


Boom Boom
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Joined: Dec 29 2004

A friend wrote to me after I posted that link on Facebook:  "I notice it says absolutely nothing about the impact on tourism. I have heard several people say that they will not be holidaying in Alberta - too much pollution - too much fracking - too much environmental degradation."


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

NDPP wrote:

Canada Threatens Trade War with EU Over Tar Sands

BTW, how are those negotiations coming along over the Canada-EU free trade agreement?


Policywonk
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Joined: Feb 6 2005

M. Spector wrote:

Snowd wrote:

It said COAL was the worst culprit. Also, oil industry people will tell you that 85% of emissions come from "tailpipes", not productionn of oil and gas - their point being that "it is driver's fault tha planet is warming, don't blame the industry"...

I don't know what your agenda is here, but I don't much care for it. This is oil company propaganda, pure and simple. Just because coal may be worse than oil for emissions, it doesn't excuse the mining of oilsands. In fact, the emissions produced by mining and processing bitumen into usable petroleum products vastly exceed the emissions produced in the mining of coal, and that difference exceeds any difference in the emissions caused by the combustion of either fossil fuel.

Whether the bulk of the emissions of any fossil fuel come from the "tailpipe" or the extraction from the earth is irrelevant - both the extraction and the combustion of fossil fuels cause harm to the environment and force climate change. Without the extraction there would be no combustion, so the oil companies can't play Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of the environmental damage caused by their product.

I don't know what was in Weaver's head, but not to include production because it is double counting seems ridiculous. Coal-fired thermal electricity produces more GHG emissions in Alberta now, but not when tar sands production increases three-fold.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

The Swart & Weaver paper is not available freely online, so we only have the MSM spin to go by. It appears that the "tar sands are not so bad" meme is getting all the headlines.

Among other things, what the paper did, apparently, was calculate the emissions and climate forcing that would occur if all the coal in the world was burned, and compare that to the effect of burning all the available tar sands oil. Naturally, because coal is still much more abundant than oil and the tar sands only represent a fraction of the world's oil reserves, burning the coal would have a far more devastating effect on the planet's climate than burning the tar sands oil. This appears to be the basis of comparison. It's bullshit; moreover, the authors have provided the media with nice little sound bites that they can seize on to "prove" that the tar sands are basically a clean energy source, even though the authors reportedly don't believe that, and in fact oppose the tar sands development.


Rebecca West
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Joined: Nov 28 2001

CFL


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