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IL Foglio: 'Toulouse Terrorist Worked For French Intelligence' : Aftermath/Results

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Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

Your memory, or perhaps your reading comprehension skills are faulty, Mr. Tea. babblers were responding to Nycole Turmel's statement about this murder which took place in a different country and ntoing that she neglected to make similar declarations about other murders with more victims and with which Canada is in fact complicit. Or perhaps that's what you meant by double standard?

I welcome you to use your logic on comapring this case to Trayvon Martin in any thread you wish, and see how far that gets you.


Mr.Tea
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Joined: Jul 9 2011

Not sure what you mean by that...


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

Slumberjack wrote:

France under Sarkozy has a bit of a track record when it comes to conjuring up terrorist threats to justify crackdowns and arrests. You don't even have to be of Middle Eastern origin to benefit from the protect and serve apparatus he's put in place.  The type of attention previously reserved for that demographic can now be rolled out everywhere.  Equality for all is what he's strived for this many years.

Terrorism or Tragicomedy?

NDPP

and another example;

Nicolas Sarkozy: Biography

http://www.who2.com/bio/nicolas-sarkozy

"Sarkozy was only 28 when he became mayor of the well-to-do suburb Neuilly-sur-Seine in 1983; he won national acclaim in 1993 after schoolchildren in Neuilly were taken hostage by a man calling himself the Human Bomb, and Sarkozy negotiated directly with the man for their release...The name of the 'Human Bomb' kidnapper was Eric Schmitt, he was killed in a police raid that ended the incident..."


Dostoyevsky
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Slumberjack wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:
What a laugh ... and any evidence to the contrary is ignored.

I know...you're a hoot.  What evidence would that be though?  That some lone gunman, instilled with a vicious hatred that originated from pure hatred itself, acted upon these curious sensations when they could no longer be contained within?

I have no idea what the truth is.  I was stating that the people linking to theories in this thread so far are looking for a particular answer that fits with their beliefs  - not an objective truth.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.

 

Tolstoy


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

Slumberjack wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:
What a laugh ... and any evidence to the contrary is ignored.

I know...you're a hoot.  What evidence would that be though?  That some lone gunman, instilled with a vicious hatred that originated from pure hatred itself, acted upon these curious sensations when they could no longer be contained within?

Hoodeet (JW)

I find your rebuttal flawed, Dostoyevsky:  One does not necessarily have to be dismissive of the possibility that this was a "false flag" attack to accept the possibility that it was one young Muslim driven to extreme rage by the French military participation in Libya (hence the murder of the Maghrebi soldiers) and by the crime of Gaza and the occupation.   I certainly think either thing was possible.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Dostoyevsky wrote:

Slumberjack wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:
What a laugh ... and any evidence to the contrary is ignored.

I know...you're a hoot.  What evidence would that be though?  That some lone gunman, instilled with a vicious hatred that originated from pure hatred itself, acted upon these curious sensations when they could no longer be contained within?

I have no idea what the truth is.  I was stating that the people linking to theories in this thread so far are looking for a particular answer that fits with their beliefs  - not an objective truth.

The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him.

 

Tolstoy

 

If I'm not mistaken Dostoyevsky believed that religion has no place in government.

What, then, would Dostoyevsky have had to say about this?: Did You Know: The King of Madrasas Now Operates Over 100 Charter Schools in the US? Why would successive US Governments encourage the creation of right wing religious fundamentalists like this in America and Central Asia and especially after the events of 9/11/01? I thought radical Islam was a bad thing for America and the countries they claim to the attempting to free from theocratic feudalism? What have they been doing in Afghanistan since the 1980s other than propping-up drug barons and the most ruthless and vicious warlords?

In your opinion do you really believe that the Gladio countries are overly concerned about the proliferation of militant Islam, Dostoyevsky? Because for some reason or other, many actually, I just don't believe it. And the Republicans have been no different since Reagan and the mujahideen. Senator McCain is but one current example of many when he personally delivered words of praise to Benghazi terrorists in Libya for their armed insurrection against a secular government in Tripoli. I could go on and on until the cows come home, and I suspect there would be people suggesting that it is all just wild coincidence while ignoring the fact that very many wild coincidences added together amounts to damning evidence against the colossally stupid and utterly phony global war on terror.


Dostoyevsky
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Hoodeet wrote:

Slumberjack wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:
What a laugh ... and any evidence to the contrary is ignored.

I know...you're a hoot.  What evidence would that be though?  That some lone gunman, instilled with a vicious hatred that originated from pure hatred itself, acted upon these curious sensations when they could no longer be contained within?

Hoodeet (JW)

I find your rebuttal flawed, Dostoyevsky:  One does not necessarily have to be dismissive of the possibility that this was a "false flag" attack to accept the possibility that it was one young Muslim driven to extreme rage by the French military participation in Libya (hence the murder of the Maghrebi soldiers) and by the crime of Gaza and the occupation.   I certainly think either thing was possible.

Hoodeet -   As has been stated on this site many times - Jewish people world wide are not responsible for crimes committed by the Israeli government and so in no way could this crime be justified. 

After the indentity of the killer and his self proclaimed reasons for the killings became known only the new fascists of Europe could exploit this tragedy politically. I sensed a desperation on the part of some here to find anyone else that could be responsible for the crime - eg. French Government - so that the crime could then be exploited by people on the left.

It this crass need to spin everything that led me (perhaps Mr. Tea had a similar feeling) to feel a bit put-off by the orginal thread about this crime.


NDPP
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Of course Jewish people world wide are not responsible for crimes committed by the Israeli government and so in no way could this crime be justified. Nobody did that here.

What is truly crass is the continued disappearance of all but the Jewish victims.

 


Dostoyevsky
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NDPP wrote:

Of course Jewish people world wide are not responsible for crimes committed by the Israeli government and so in no way could this crime be justified. Nobody did that here.

What is truly crass is the continued disappearance of all but the Jewish victims.

 

I didn't say anyone did that here.   You're correct that the soldiers killed should not be forgotten or their deaths minimized - I'm sure that's what you meant right.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

That's exactly what I meant. This was the beginning of this thread, when the NDP did precisely the same thing. Glad we're clear now.


Bec.De.Corbin
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French police swoop on suspected Islamists

 

Quote:

French police commandos arrested 19 people and seized weapons in Friday morning swoops on people suspected of radical Islamist activity, in several cities including Toulouse, scene of the killings of four Jews and three soldiers this month.

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is waging an uphill battle for re-election in an April-May vote, said more such raids would follow.

 

"There will be further operations, allowing us to expel a number of people who have no business in the country," he said in an interview on Europe 1 radio.

 

The raids come just over a week after al Qaeda-inspired gunman Mohamed Merah was killed by police snipers after shooting dead three Jewish school children, a rabbi and three soldiers in attacks around Toulouse, turning internal security into a bigger campaign issue ahead of the presidential election.

Hey, look at that duck over there...Wink


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

news.yahoo.com wrote:
The raids come just over a week after al Qaeda-inspired gunman Mohamed Merah was killed by police snipers after shooting dead three Jewish school children, a rabbi and three soldiers in attacks around Toulouse, turning internal security into a bigger campaign issue ahead of the presidential election.


Polls showed that more than 70 percent of voters approved of Sarkozy's handling of the crisis, which reduced his chief rival, Socialist frontrunner Francois Hollande, to the role of bystander ahead of the two-round election on April 22 and May 6.

Textbook Gladio. And they've had decades of practice.


Bec.De.Corbin
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Tongue out

Fidel wrote:

news.yahoo.com wrote:
The raids come just over a week after al Qaeda-inspired gunman Mohamed Merah was killed by police snipers after shooting dead three Jewish school children, a rabbi and three soldiers in attacks around Toulouse, turning internal security into a bigger campaign issue ahead of the presidential election.


Polls showed that more than 70 percent of voters approved of Sarkozy's handling of the crisis, which reduced his chief rival, Socialist frontrunner Francois Hollande, to the role of bystander ahead of the two-round election on April 22 and May 6.

Textbook Gladio. And they've had decades of practice.

As is textbook you...


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

U.S. patriot Sibel Edmonds and others have stated for the record that the neocons and all their gladio allies heart militant Islam. They have no credibility without a bogeyman to scare hell out of Americans and even French voters at election time. And some of us refuse to be taken in by the ongoing strategy of tension. We are not gullible. We know the established history of a vicious empire all too well to be duped by their strategy of violence for rigging elections and other dirty tricks in the war on democracy.


NDPP
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New French Nationalism: Toulouse Gunman At Heart of Presidential Race

http://rt.com/news/toulouse-gunman-political-debate-822

"The Tolouse gunman may be dead and buried, but his dark legacy continues to stir up national passions in France. With French police arresting some 19 suspected Islamists in raids across the country, harsher anti-terror measures could be looming. Sarkozy also advocates tightening border-controls, saying there are 'too many foreigners in France.' He has also promised to bar radical Muslim preachers from entering the country to participate in an Islamic conference next month.

Le Pen has called for 'war on these fundamentalist political religious groups who are killing our children,' saying that 'the threat of Islamic fundamentalism has been underestimated.'

While some are alarmed by such rhetoric, others say these proposals are solely being made to get votes, as emotions remain charged after the Toulouse tragedy..."

Sarko makes Presidential lemonade of Merah


Fidel
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NDPP
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Fidel wrote:

Political conservatives all love a good bogeyman They know the routine

NDPP

and maybe the 'Poutine'..as well?


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

First it was decades of false threats of world domination by Soviet communism requiring massive ripoffs of taxpayers every year.

Then suddenly they had to scramble to find another false threat to use in blackmailing their own citizens.

The Islamic bogeyman to launch a new religious crusades is what they came up with. And it's their very own creation. We are methodically brainwashed into fearing foreigners and those who were once with us but who have since turned against us, like a son goes against the father.

The warfiteering industrial complex was in desperate need enemies after the fall of the Berlin Wall. And what better than to discover their own terrorist threats holed-up in the exact same countries they wish to expand into militarily and monetarily. Their own terrorist threats are right where they left them in the 1990s.


Fidel
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Mohamed Merah's family denies he was Toulouse, France gunman

Quote:
The family of Mohamed Merah, whom French police accused of carrying out a wave of deadly shootings in Toulouse and Montauban between March 11 and 19, has emphatically denied that he was a terrorist or carried out the killings. Merah was killed by an elite police unit after a 32-hour siege of his flat last Thursday.

His half-brother Rachid Merah, who lives in Algeria, told FranceInfo television: "I have no idea of what the media and the politicians are talking about. They say that Mohammed has been in Afghanistan and Pakistan and that he was in contact with Al Qaeda. But I categorically deny it. And I doubt whether he has had any links with Al Qaeda or the Taliban or any terrorist organisation in the world. ...

The main evidence used to incriminate Merah were the weapons found in his apartment, and the police's claims that he confessed to the crime in negotiations and phone calls with them. This evidence has not been released to the public, however, and there is still room for doubt as to whether Merah in fact was the killer. An eyewitness of the Montauban shooting reported that the killer was stout and had a scarred, tattooed cheek-unlike the slim, smooth-faced Mohamed Merah.

Was the killer short and fat with a tattoo as eye an eye witness described, or was he Mohamed Merah? Le Gladios aren't saying.


NDPP
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Mohamed Merah's Family Denies He Was Toulouse Gunman  - by Antoine Lerougetel

http://wsws.org/articles/2012/mar2012/mera-m31.shtml

"...Under these highly suspicious circumstances, only a few weeks before the French presidential elections, incumbent President Nicolas Sarkozy seized upon the killings to whip up law-and-order hysteria and seize the media spotlight. He announced new laws penalising visits to internet sites 'spreading terrorists ideology', and police carried out a crackdown on an alleged Islamist network in France yesterday, arresting 19 people.

The tacist support given to thse police-state measures by PS presidential candidate Francois Hollande and Hollande's pseudo-left allies has allowed Sarkozy to seize the initiative in the election race, effectively mounting a political coup. Poll results, now put him in front at 30 percent of voting intentions - to Hollande's 28 percent in the first round of voting on April 22.."

Toulouse Attacks 'A Little Like 9/11' For France Says Nicolas Sarkozy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9176646/Toulouse...

"Nicolas Sarkozy's re-election team has denied claims that a raid launched to arrest 19 suspected Islamist terrorists was politically motivated, as the president described the Toulouse shootings as 'a little like' 9/11.."


Fidel
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I agree with Sarkozy only in the way that I think the attacks have something in common with 9/11. Will French voters be influenced by the attacks enough that they vote for Sarkozy and Le Pen? 

We'll see.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Mr.Tea wrote:

But it's pretty easy to take nonsense and weave elaborate conspiracy theories.

How bout this: The New Black Panther Party has offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman's capture ("dead or alive"). The New Black Panther Party was also charged with "voter intimidation" outside a Philadlphia polling station in the 2008 election, which Obama won. Obama's attorney general (also black) declined to prosecute them.

Obama is gaining some political capital out of this terrible tragedy. Maybe the New Black Panthers actually killed Trayvon Martin at the bequest of Obama (and as payback for Eric Holder letting them off of charges) and framed the "patsy" George Zimmerman to take the fall for it and are now placing a bounty on Zimmerman's head to shut him up (hey, just like when Jack Ruby killed Oswalt!) and Obama is secretly orchestrating the whole thing as a pretense to repealing the rights of Americans to keep and bear arms and also to rile up black voters in Florida (which is a key swing state) as he heads into a close election.

Is that any less crazy than the idea that the Toulouse killer was a patsy of a government agency and that this was all an elaborate farce to provide political cover to repressing Muslims? Of course not. It's just apparently less acceptable to suggest.

I don't think I have ever agreed with Mr. Tea before, but the above is spot on. This is exactly the kind of batshit "logic" that the conspiracy theorists like to use.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

M. Spector wrote:

Mr.Tea wrote:

But it's pretty easy to take nonsense and weave elaborate conspiracy theories.

How bout this: The New Black Panther Party has offered a $10,000 reward for Zimmerman's capture ("dead or alive"). The New Black Panther Party was also charged with "voter intimidation" outside a Philadlphia polling station in the 2008 election, which Obama won. Obama's attorney general (also black) declined to prosecute them.

Obama is gaining some political capital out of this terrible tragedy. Maybe the New Black Panthers actually killed Trayvon Martin at the bequest of Obama (and as payback for Eric Holder letting them off of charges) and framed the "patsy" George Zimmerman to take the fall for it and are now placing a bounty on Zimmerman's head to shut him up (hey, just like when Jack Ruby killed Oswalt!) and Obama is secretly orchestrating the whole thing as a pretense to repealing the rights of Americans to keep and bear arms and also to rile up black voters in Florida (which is a key swing state) as he heads into a close election.

Is that any less crazy than the idea that the Toulouse killer was a patsy of a government agency and that this was all an elaborate farce to provide political cover to repressing Muslims? Of course not. It's just apparently less acceptable to suggest.

I don't think I have ever agreed with Mr. Tea before, but the above is spot on. This is exactly the kind of batshit "logic" that the conspiracy theorists like to use.

 

It's plausible but not likely imo. I sometimes gravitate toward the simplest explanation, which is that yet another black person has been murdered by a white mab in the deep south. Lax gun laws and racism are givens in southern states like Florida. In some US states all it takes to get away with the crime of shooting someone to death is to claim that they feared for their lives before pulling the trigger. I think it more likely that Martin was executed by a racist Zimmerman laying in wait for him with a gun. And if this actually was not true, then we can't be blamed for the American south's long and established history for racially motivated killings.

Similarly if we apply least complex deduction and simple logic to the Toulouse murders, we might jump to the conclusion for racially motivated slayings. Muslim man slays Jewish people as revenge for Israeli oppression of Palestinians and so on whatever case closed gavel-smack! And this all happens druing political campaigns immediately preceding what is thought to be a close election race in France. 

It's a tie.

Significant differences in the two murder cases:

It's not obvious that George Zimmerman is a member of an oppressed ethnic group, wherease Mohamed Merah is.

George Zimmerman is not alleged to have Al-Qa'eda sympathies.

George Zimmerman is still alive to defend himself.

Obama and Liberal Democrats are expected to win the next elections whereas the right wing Sarkozy's popularity was in decline prior to the shootings.

Obama has the backing of Wall Street, his real constituents. Similarly Sarkozy is a good friend of the 1000 year-old banking establishment in Europe.

Conclusion: Things seem to be going a-okay for Sarkozy since the Toulouse shootings whereas Obama really doesn't need help from George Zimmerman in order to win financial backing from his Wall Street constituents and king-makers in America.

There might well be a strategy of tension in play in Florida, I don't know. There doesn't seem to be a need for it.

But I think the strategy probably is being used in France where political conservatives needed a boost to their flagging popularity.


Ken Burch
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Mr. Tea, it's one thing to say that we need to make sure no one forgets or devalues the lives lost in Toulouse.  That is an entirely justified sentiment, and you can, in fact, assume that everyone on Babble agrees with that.  Nobody here was EVER saying "why should we care...some of them were just Jews"-which appears to be what you were assuming people here were saying(or, perhaps, wishing that they were saying so you could attack them for saying it)

It's a totally different matter to argue, as you clearly are, that the ONLY way anyone can show respect for the dead in this case is to accept the official interpretation that the killings were nothing but the acts of a lone gunman driven by bigotry.  You do not have to accept THAT interpretation at all to recognize that actual, innocent people, Jewish, Muslim, and gentile, died heree, and that their killings were unjustified and barbaric.  Some of us would argue that the best way that the lives and the deaths of these people can be honored is to be sure we find the truth about their killings. 

You should accept that the motives of those you are attacking here for the theories they are exploring regarding the killings in Toulouse are decent and moral.

That's all I was trying to say. 

Freedom of inquiry on this is not disrespect to the victims.


NDPP
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The Toulouse Murders: Guilt and Identity Politics - by Diana Johnstone

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/04/02/the-toulouse-murders/

Despite Sarkozy's order to capture Merah alive, after over 30 hours of siege the final assault ended in a hail of gunfire, with Merah dead from a bullet through his head. There can be no trial, no questioning..

Strangest of all was Merah's highly unusual travel itinerary, reportedly taking him to Lebanon, Turkey, Syria, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and even Israel, a detail which feeds speculation that he may have been a Mossad agent as well as a Taliban trainee. Such globetrotting requires large amounts of money and know-how. Merah had no steady job and no regular income.

Merah had a contact with an agent of the French internal intelligence agency DCRI, which suggests to some observers that he had been recruited as a police informer after his multiple arrests for petty thievery. These and a few other factors have fueled suspicions that Merah was framed, or manipulated, or deliberately allowed to commit crimes in order to influence public opinion for Sarkozy, or for Israel, or for war against Islam.."

 

Mohammed Merah Was Working For French Intelligence Services the DCRI - by Tom Mellen

http://sw9red.wordpress.com/tag/zahia-mokhtari/

"French commandos deliberately killed alleged mass murderer Mohammed Merah rather than try to catch him alive, his family lawyer claimed yesterday. Addressing a press conference in Algiers on behalf of Mr Merah's father, Zahid Mokhtari said this was evidenced in two 20-minute videos filmed during negotiations between the elite RAID police unit and Mr Merah during the 30-hour standoff in Toulouse on March 21.

'People at the heart of the event who wanted the truth to come out gave me these videos,' Ms Mokhtari said. 'We see Mohammed Merah talking to the police, he says 'Why are you killing me? I am innocent.' She asserted that Mr Merah had been shot dead by RAID personnel to stop him revealing he had been working for French Intelligence. 'Merah was manipulated and used in operations by the French and was subsequently liquidated so that the truth does not see the light of day.'..."

 


Fidel
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Very interesting, NDPP. I'm leaning toward Mohamed Merah's innocence in this tragedy. I think the Gladio Gang was working to help Sarkozy's electoral fortunes. They couldn't let him campaign with just his record on the economy blowng in the wind. He needed a boost and received one at the most opportune time. Will it work? We shall see.

What if Mohamed Merah had nothing to do with the murders or even Al-Qa'eda as his family claims all the while?

What if Mohamed Atta had nothing to do with militant Islam or 9/11 as his family has claimed all along?

It would mean that a bunch of cunning psychopaths are still on the loose.


Bec.De.Corbin
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I'm going with he was an Muslim citizen of France who had contacts with extremist groups like al Qaida and even got training from them in his travels. He wanted to avenge Palestinian children and punish France for its involvement in Afghanistan and he did that by killing three French soldiers and gunning down people, children included, at a Jewish school.

The guy even videoed the killings and bragged about it to the press before he was killed in a shoot out with French police.

Of course his family denies he's the killer and are shocked he is being implicated as the gunman; after all he'd never do something like that.

Kind of bland, I know...

 

 


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
I'm going with he was an Muslim citizen of France who had contacts with extremist groups like al Qaida and even got training from them in his travels.

Meanwhile at home he was merely unemployed,  a young man without means and few prospects. This is typical of young people in France today after too many years of the new liberal capitalism. 

The French government has described Merah as a "self-radicalizing lone wolf". Doesn't sound like they think he was influenced by CIA'duh. No mention of enrolling in terror training in any of the U.S. taxpayer funded schools for terrorism in Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
He wanted to avenge Palestinian children and punish France for its involvement in Afghanistan and he did that by killing three French soldiers and gunning down people, children included, at a Jewish school.

You must have read Sibel Edmonds boilingfrogs post describing how your tax dollars are continally used to fund madrasas and the spread of militant Islam, we can tell. Edmonds is a patriotic American just like yourself, Bec.

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
The guy even videoed the killings and bragged about it to the press before he was killed in a shoot out with French police.

Is that like the video of bin Laden's burial at sea which you saw with your own eyes, Bec? Demand proof always before accepting someone else's version of events. You never know where it's bin. "bin" Pff! Get it?


Mr.Tea
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Fidel wrote:

Meanwhile at home he was merely unemployed,  a young man without means and few prospects. This is typical of young people in France today after too many years of the new liberal capitalism. 

There are lots of people like that in France. And in Britain. And Italy. And Germany. And America. And Canada. Amazingly, 99.999999999% of them don't go out and commit these sorts of atrocities.


Fidel
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Joined: Apr 29 2004

Mr.Tea wrote:

Fidel wrote:

Meanwhile at home he was merely unemployed,  a young man without means and few prospects. This is typical of young people in France today after too many years of the new liberal capitalism. 

There are lots of people like that in France. And in Britain. And Italy. And Germany. And America. And Canada. Amazingly, 99.999999999% of them don't go out and commit these sorts of atrocities.

 

And there isn't any proof that Merah committed these murders.

Lawyer claims Toulouse gunman claimed innocence

Quote:
Lawyers in both France and Algeria are offering to help the father of the Toulouse gunman to pursue claims of wrongful death in the case of his son.

With several unverified videos having surfaced on the internet purporting to show the last moments before French police shot Mohamed Merah, one lawyer now says she has clear evidence of a conspiracy.

Zania Mokhtari claims she has footage showing Merah developed a relationship with the French security forces during the 30-hour siege of his apartment and asked them, "Why are you trying to kill me, I am innocent".

Hmm? It sounds like Merah wasn't confessing to anything that they wanted him to, and so they murdered him. No charges, no trial nothing. Neat and clean.

It sounds as though the plumbers paid him a visit and weren't talking with him so much as they proceeded to execute him gladio style. 


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