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Tom Mulcair will be Prime Minister #3

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ReeferMadness
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Joined: Jun 8 2002

There is an incredible amount of wishful thinking going on here.  Mulcair will move the NDP towards the centre and guarantee the split of the centre left vote in the next election.  Sure, it's possible that the Libs will collapse and disappear.  It's also possible that we'll get wiped out by a massive asteroid that will end civilization.  I'm not betting on either.

So, I see a big smile on the face of Stephen Harper.   He's looking at a Dipper leader who's a former Lib and a Lib leader who's a former dipper.  The voters will have to be forgiven for getting confused as to who is right and who will be left.  Meanwhile, Harper's base has nowhere to go and he's throwing them exactly the right amount of red meat to keep them interested while not moving so fast as to alienate the centrists.  Most Canadians are so politically naive that unless he seriously upsets the applecart, Harper will not scare them off.

Bad Mojo.  Look for another Con majority in 2015.


Stockholm
Online
Joined: Sep 29 2002

I think the Liberals will fall into the low teens next election and be reduced to about 12 seats and the NDP will scoops almost all of that sliding Liberal vote. Let's face it, the Liberal Party is now nothing more than a pathetic vanity project for Bob Rae. In a head to head CPC vs. NDP battle, the NDP will win.


socialdemocrati...
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Joined: Jan 10 2012

Stockholm wrote:

I think the Liberals will fall into the low teens next election and be reduced to about 12 seats and the NDP will scoops almost all of that sliding Liberal vote. Let's face it, the Liberal Party is now nothing more than a pathetic vanity project for Bob Rae. In a head to head CPC vs. NDP battle, the NDP will win.

That's not fair to the Liberals. If the leadership race will show us anything, they're capable of more than one vanity project at a time.


janfromthebruce
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Joined: Apr 24 2007

KenS wrote:

Ditto with mtm Jan, I didnt understand what you were saying about Dexter, etc.

______________________________________________________________________________________ Our kids live together and play together in their communities, let's have them learn together too!

 

I wasn't actually relating anything to Dextor although I have heard some negative comment about this NDP govt on babble by some posters from Nova Scotia. So I apologize for including although it was in the online quote.

This has to do with the notion that the federal NDP needs to emulate and show that they are capable of running good govts and with sound economic policies and so on. Often times, NDP govts in Sask and Man are used as shiny examples of how NDP govts can provide good economic management in both good and bad times, say during times of recessions.

I always felt very proud that these govts, during tough times got the books in order and thus be able to provde programs that are more social democratic in nature.

However, during the past leadership campaign, I repeatedly read on these boards and by certain posters that those weren't good NDP govts to be proud of, and those associated with those govts (NDPers) were has beens, and we need to embrace the modern and new - those were has beens.

So I was quite surprised today, to see an article link posted here where the author - lo and behold - suggested that these same govts and those associated with these "successful" NDP govts be basically emulated and brought in by the current leadership federally - whether as staff, consultants, and/or run for office in the next election. I was dumb-founded.

So either the previous postings were a misrepresentation done strategically for particular candidate outcomes which is stuff I find distasteful during elections (smearing of other parties) or it was just a complete misread on myself. I guess I have a thing about integrity and that "means" don't justify the "ends".

That's all - no big deal - carry on. On and we all have to move on now and forget that little history online.

 

 


Jacob Two-Two
Online
Joined: Jan 16 2002

ReeferMadness wrote:

 

So, I see a big smile on the face of Stephen Harper.   He's looking at a Dipper leader who's a former Lib and a Lib leader who's a former dipper.  The voters will have to be forgiven for getting confused as to who is right and who will be left.  Meanwhile, Harper's base has nowhere to go and he's throwing them exactly the right amount of red meat to keep them interested while not moving so fast as to alienate the centrists.  Most Canadians are so politically naive that unless he seriously upsets the applecart, Harper will not scare them off.

Bad Mojo.  Look for another Con majority in 2015.

Man, do you really think that any swing voter out there cares who identifies themselves as left or right? I suspect that those who don't find the distinctions meaningless find them at least confusing. I don't believe such labels make any impact on their vote.

But more importantly, I think you're vastly overestimating the appeal of the Conservative party, and I don't say that just because I don't like them. I say that because the Liberals have been a sad joke for almost ten years now, arrogant, incompetent, and out of touch. And a broad majority of voters have simply never seen the NDP as an option (until recently). Basically there has been a political vacuum for the past decade where Canadians have been staring at three choices that they didn't feel good about, and the result was the string of minority governments.

And yet, even with barely any competition to speak of, still the Cons have laboured and strained to actually be accepted by the electorate, and have never truely gotten there. Even this last election where they finally got their majority, they just barely squeaked it out, and now it seems they had to cheat to do it. And a few months later, their numbers are back out of majority territory. I've been saying this from the very beginning and I stand by it. Canadians have never wanted to vote for the Cons, but they just felt that they had no options.

Obviously, that has changed. The Liberal party is as lost as ever, thank god, (I still think a charasmatic Liberal would sweep the nation, but it appears that's not going to happen in the near future) but the NDP under Jack finally started gaining the trust of the masses, and that same trust will carry through Mulcair's leadership and translate into big gains. All Canadians needed was someone they could feel good about voting for, but it's a slow-moving beast, this electorate. It took us a while to build this momentum, and one misstep could still wipe it all out, but barring that, it still rests with us. The Cons were just a default for a frustrated populace, but it's not the same ball game anymore.

 


Howard
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Joined: Aug 31 2011

Maybe the Liberals will become the new Marijuana Party now that they are in favour legalisation. They did run Ross Rebagliati after all.


ReeferMadness
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Joined: Jun 8 2002

Stockholm wrote:

I think the Liberals will fall into the low teens next election and be reduced to about 12 seats and the NDP will scoops almost all of that sliding Liberal vote. Let's face it, the Liberal Party is now nothing more than a pathetic vanity project for Bob Rae. In a head to head CPC vs. NDP battle, the NDP will win.

Spoken like a true sports fan.  Yay, team.  Those other guys are bums.  Bums, I tell ya!


Stockholm
Online
Joined: Sep 29 2002

Seriously, for the last 20 years the Liberals have had one argument and one argument ONLY for why anyone should vote Liberal as opposed to NDP and that was "we are big and they are small". Well no that the NDP is big and the Liberals are small, the Liberals are left with NOTHINg no argument whatsoever for why anyone should vote for them. They lived by the sword and now they shall die by the sword. Goodbye to an irrelevant party that stands for absoluetly nothing.

Careerists used to join the Liberal party because it was considered a good career move in terms of getting appointed to the Immigration and Refugee Board or to the bench - but now that the Liberals are an irelevant third party they have nothing to offer the opportunists.


ReeferMadness
Offline
Joined: Jun 8 2002

Jacob Two-Two wrote:

ReeferMadness wrote:

 

So, I see a big smile on the face of Stephen Harper.   He's looking at a Dipper leader who's a former Lib and a Lib leader who's a former dipper.  The voters will have to be forgiven for getting confused as to who is right and who will be left.  Meanwhile, Harper's base has nowhere to go and he's throwing them exactly the right amount of red meat to keep them interested while not moving so fast as to alienate the centrists.  Most Canadians are so politically naive that unless he seriously upsets the applecart, Harper will not scare them off.

Bad Mojo.  Look for another Con majority in 2015.

Man, do you really think that any swing voter out there cares who identifies themselves as left or right? I suspect that those who don't find the distinctions meaningless find them at least confusing. I don't believe such labels make any impact on their vote.

No, I don't think that.  In fact, I never refer to myself or any individual as right or left - it's a two-dimensional stereotype.  I was only referencing centre-left as a population, not as individuals.

Quote:

But more importantly, I think you're vastly overestimating the appeal of the Conservative party, and I don't say that just because I don't like them. I say that because the Liberals have been a sad joke for almost ten years now, arrogant, incompetent, and out of touch. And a broad majority of voters have simply never seen the NDP as an option (until recently). Basically there has been a political vacuum for the past decade where Canadians have been staring at three choices that they didn't feel good about, and the result was the string of minority governments.

I hope you're right just for the sake of getting rid of the Cons.  But in fact, they haven't lost significant support despite the scandals.  Maybe Mulcair will prove wildly popular and NDP support will zoom.  I doubt it but maybe.

Quote:

And yet, even with barely any competition to speak of, still the Cons have laboured and strained to actually be accepted by the electorate, and have never truely gotten there. Even this last election where they finally got their majority, they just barely squeaked it out, and now it seems they had to cheat to do it. And a few months later, their numbers are back out of majority territory. I've been saying this from the very beginning and I stand by it. Canadians have never wanted to vote for the Cons, but they just felt that they had no options.

I think you talk from the heart more than the mind.

Quote:

Obviously, that has changed. The Liberal party is as lost as ever, thank god, (I still think a charasmatic Liberal would sweep the nation, but it appears that's not going to happen in the near future) but the NDP under Jack finally started gaining the trust of the masses, and that same trust will carry through Mulcair's leadership and translate into big gains. All Canadians needed was someone they could feel good about voting for, but it's a slow-moving beast, this electorate. It took us a while to build this momentum, and one misstep could still wipe it all out, but barring that, it still rests with us. The Cons were just a default for a frustrated populace, but it's not the same ball game anymore.

Maybe it's obvious.  Or maybe it's just obvious to people who desperately want it to be so.

Here's something else for you to chew on.  If the NDP should by some fantastic miracle find itself in government, it probably won't be significantly more progressive than those Liberals you love to hate.  In order for Mulcair to win, he'll need to do 3 things:

  • Annihilate the Liberals
  • Make the NDP more centrist
  • Overcome historical bias against the NDP on the part of many centrists

Number 2 is the killer.  Based on the records of actual provinical NDP administrations, an NDP government will be not much more progressive than the Chretien Liberals and probably less so than the Trudeau Liberals.

If your goal is for your team to win, then I suppose an NDP victory makes sense.  Yay team.

If your goal is to make Canada a more caring, progressive place, then the attitudes of the citizens are much more important than the title of the party.


ReeferMadness
Offline
Joined: Jun 8 2002

Stockholm wrote:

Seriously, for the last 20 years the Liberals have had one argument and one argument ONLY for why anyone should vote Liberal as opposed to NDP and that was "we are big and they are small". Well no that the NDP is big and the Liberals are small, the Liberals are left with NOTHINg no argument whatsoever for why anyone should vote for them. They lived by the sword and now they shall die by the sword. Goodbye to an irrelevant party that stands for absoluetly nothing.

Careerists used to join the Liberal party because it was considered a good career move in terms of getting appointed to the Immigration and Refugee Board or to the bench - but now that the Liberals are an irelevant third party they have nothing to offer the opportunists.

Sorry, Stockholm but that's just more wishful thinking.   The Liberals got their support because they were perceived to be moderates.  People saw the Cons as one extreme and the NDP as the other.

So, now the NDP are trying to be the moderates.  In other words, they want to be just like the Liberals were.  Good luck with that.


Stockholm
Online
Joined: Sep 29 2002

The Librrals won because they were there . Once they lost control of the patronage machine that came with being "the natural government party" there was no longer any reason to support them. Canada will politically evolve into a giant Manitoba - a country with two big parties a centre left NDP and a centre right conservative party. The Liberals nationally will be like the MB Liberals - a outiqur party for rich professionals and there are about 12 ridings in Canada that have enough of those people to elect a Liberal.


KenS
Online
Joined: Aug 6 2001

janfromthebruce wrote:

I always felt very proud that these govts, during tough times got the books in order and thus be able to provde programs that are more social democratic in nature.

This has got to be thread drift, but for what ts worth...

You'll be hard pressed to find a thing that the Dexter government has done or even indicated for the future that is more social democratic in nature. Its all getting the books in order. Thats been so great, its obvious that will be their entire re-election message: getting the job done, more to do yet.

In fact, its going so well, lets start talking about income tax cuts. We arent even finished with draconian cuts when the 'fat' is already gone, and lets have some income tax cuts.


Gaian
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Joined: Aug 5 2011
Hardly likely until the books are balanced again, following the grants to Irving's boatyards that allowed the firm to put forward winning bids on the federal ship-building contracts. Or does this person from central Canada have that wrong? The jobs that it promises to provide for a couple of decades have to be attractive to folk used to goin' down the road.

KenS
Online
Joined: Aug 6 2001

[replied in new thread]


Howard
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Joined: Aug 31 2011

Campaign finance reform killed the Liberals. It used to be a foregone conclusion that they could spend their opponents into obscurity. Not so anymore. The elitist party of elites can't even call itself elite anymore. With its instasupporters it is on its way to becoming a Groucho Marx punchline, "I would never join a club, that would have me as a member."


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