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My bad. I thought there was dissension in the NDP caucus on the LGR, and that the Cons and the media were ready to exploit this.
What I still don't understand is why Hyer didn't leave caucus back when he was sanctioned by Turmel? Instead he quit AFTER Mulcair ended the punishment and offered to turn the page and on top of that the LGR is gone and there will be no further votes on the topic unless the NDP agrees to a new gun policy at its policy convention next year, then wins the 2015 election and then brings its new policy to a vote.
Again, it all leads back to the one and only explantion - Hyer was pissed off at being dropped from the shadow cabinet - end of story.
You are right on that BB.
What is your confusion? what did you think you got wrong?
[Unless you dont want to get into "Whose on first, no...." ]
What Hyer says does not add up. So what?
Its a side issue.
Now I am confused!
Right.
The point is that a lot of us think what the NDP is doing will in the main just help them do that.
And Caucus dissension isnt the main issue. That it exists is a reflection that a minority of Caucus will always be of the opinion that this is toxic and we are best off staying away from it and/or neutralizing it as much as possible. As Jack did.
Since Nathan is House Leader now, presumably there will be a more realistic discussion. Some damage has been done already, but Mulcair can still easily enough find a means to step away from that banner he stuck out... including handling the dissapointment of the people among whom he raised expectations.
Yet another thing that is weird about Hyer's action is that it came on the very day that Nathan Cullen took o ver as House Leader...Cullen you may recall is from northern BC and has always opposed the long gun registry and skipped the vote on abolishing it earlier this year. He is also the one Hyer endorsed for leader.
Boy oh boy Mulcair really has it in for gun registry opponents - Cullen opposed the gun registry and was so muzzled - he was made House Leader - go figure
Stockholm your logic leads to the conclusion that his resignation is clearly not about the LGR but instead it seems to be about something else. I find it really insulting to a former ally for you to immediately presume the worst motives on his part. Try saving some of your vitriol for the real enemies of the people of Canada.
Sorry Kropo, but the evidence is increasing Mulcair is not the bad guy hear, Hyer is, Mulcair has started to try and heal the rifts in the party this issue, he lifted punishments on,those two MPs, he rewarded many anti registery MPs, and Hyer's own words betray him. He's pissed he didn't make it into the shadow cabinate. Hyer knew what he was joining when he ran for NDP, sometimes votes get whipped, just like Jack did on gay marriage, and not everyone can get into the shadow cabinate.
Hyer is being stupid. He's off on this.
But that does not mean that the NDP and Mulcair has done the prudent thing. Nor does it mean whether or not we are going to continue paying consequences for HOW we handle this.
Stupid Hyer is the canary in the coal mine.
Unlikely we will lose another MP over this. And there may be no more than quiet disagreements in Caucus over how to handle the resurrection of an LGR [or not].
But its a warning of complexities we face with voters. And if Hyer does not either rejoin Caucus or quit politics, his existence alone will make things harder for us WAY beyond his riding.
We've already paid more of a price than is visible.
Sometimes that is unaviodable. This isnt one of those 'sometimes'.
And we can wake up to that or just wave it off.
In theory anyways it appears to be a move towards democratic decision-making, and gives assurances to the backbenchers, everyone just cannot be in cabinet, that they have some power in the scheme of things. There is way, way too much power being being wielded in the PMO for the 2 parties that have controlled it.
To continue the LGR discussion from the NDP shadow cabinet thread, because I think it is important, I have a question for Stockholm:
if you let provinces opt-out of the LGR, should you let cities?
similarly, could some cities propose their own gun rules and then try and enlist the feds in enforcing them (i.e. Toronto has talked about banning all handguns)?
are you proposing to make gun laws a matter of exclusive provincial jurisdiction or at least the operation of registries? If that is the case, are you okay with the provinces delegating those authorities to municipalities?
how far down the road do/can we kick this can? is this a discussion worth having if it mostly serves to divide the Canadian people?
I agree that Hyer looks like the problem here but I still believe Stockholm's character assassinations are not helpful.
Mulcair will do well to remember he leads a national party. Whether or not the constitution should be signed by the provincial government is a provincial matter. Seems to me the party needs to appeal to left leaning voters on both sides of the Quebec constitutional divide as well as not alienating other parts of Canada by offering to "fix" the constitution. Lets face it outside of Quebec nobody even knows its "broken." Does anyone really think that if Cullin had won the people of Quebec would want him to be actively involved in Quebec's provincial affairs?
From Lawrence Martin:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/lawrence-martin/the-ndp-mus...
"A “restore democracy” charter that curbs absolute prime ministerial power, that clearly sets out checks and balances, that returns credibility to the committee system, that removes the Kremlin-like muzzle on government communications, that gives the Speaker new powers to end the Question Period farce, that limits patronage, and so on."
I think such a charter could reintroduce some democracy into our parlamentary system. While a large part of this is thanks to Harper, the trend towards prime ministerial dictatorship has been growing since Trudeau. We now have the most rigid party controlled MP voting system in any English-speaking country. I realize that there is always a risk of being seen as an out-of-control caucus, but I also believe that more free votes are important in democracy. As free votes occurred more often, the media overreaction to such votes would die down. I would be willing to consider free votes on this and some other issues that were not adopted as official party policy. MPs, even NDP MPs, should be more than "trained seals" as Trudeau said.
Its Canada's constitution. You cannot just dismiss this as a provincial affair since the only way to ever get Quebec to sign the constitution is for the federal government to propose amendments and reforms. Its not like the Quebec government is ever going to wake up one morning and decide to sign the same unamended constitution that every other previous Quebec government has rejected. That would be political suicide in Quebec.
I'm not sure what you mean about "character assassination" against Hyer. I've said the same thing everyone else has said - which is that his statements have been so weird and ill-timed that the only possible explanation is that he quit the caucus in a fit of pique over not being in the shadow cabinet.
Its easy for someone to say that they want to have their cake and eat it too - get elected by riding the coattails of Jack layton's popularity and the millions of dollars worth of central campaign spending - and then try to say you want to be allowed to vote however you want on whatever you want. If Hyer had wanted to be an Independent MP, he should have run and gotten himself elected as an independent in the first place instead of exploiting the NDP brand to get his seat and then betraying all the people who worked to get him elected.
Sure whatever you say.
Not so sure we have enough facts to blame anyone or trust appearances.
Looks like a significant disagreement the details of which are being withheld and both sides are behaving like adults.
Call it "character assassination" if you want - but i happen to believe that people who switch parties without first resigning and asking their ridings to ratify their switch in a byelection to be people of deplorable character!
I guess you aren't old enough to remember the Charlottetown Accord. The 1993 election saw the NDP go from 43 seats to 9. The Bloc went from 0 to 54. The Reform Party went from 1 by election seat to 52. Which side of the 1992 referendum was Mulcair on?
Stockholm you have said the NDP shouldn't talk about NATO much or free trade or legalizing pot because they are controversial issues and you want the NDP to reopen the constitutional file? i certainly hope that the NDP does not hand Harper his next majority by going down that road. There is no solution to the constitutional problem.
I believe a lot of Westerners are like me. I have respect for separatists but want no part in negotiations with sovereignists holding a secession gun to my head. The balance of power within Confederation is not an easy thing to achieve and so far every leader that has tried has lost personal popularity and their parties lost seats in subsequent elections. In Quebec opening the constitution must involve "righting the wrongs" and most Canadians don't see Quebec as anymore down trodden in relation to the central government than the rest of us.
I tend to agree but he didn't switch parties did he. He got into a snit with the party over something and is sitting as an Independent. That is his right unless you believe the party owns the seat and he is not an MP but a quacking duck or trained seal.
Question, does anyone seriously think Hyer could ever have been elected for the first time running as an independent - with no party brand and party resources to exploit?
First of all you don't waste your time negotiating with sovereignists who only want to see Canada fail. You negotiate with FEDERALISTS in Quebec if there is a federalist provincial government to talk to. Otherwise its a waste of time.
Agreed which is why any talk of it now is just being a loose cannon. Playing for the home town crowd over this divisive topic when there is no provincial federalist option is playing with fire.
Found this interesting:
http://thenewdemocrat.ca/2012/04/lafleur-bruce-hyer-was-never-a-good-fit...
Mulcair was great in the scrum today on Afghanistan. "Afghanistan is over. Bring the troops home."
Mulcair has also declared that 100% of NDP MPs support abortion rights, but he would whip the caucus regardless to vote down the tory PMB that seeks to erode abortion rights.
BOB RAE on the other hand will allow a free vote so all those anti-choice Liberal MPs can "vote their so-called conscience". So much for the Liberal claim to be a socially liberal party!
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/25/pol-abortion-stephen-woodworth-motion.html
Angus's percentage of the vote went down 6%, one of only a couple NDP ridings where the percentange declined from 2008-2011, so I'd say it did affect him.