quebec and the federation
i thought that this topic would be a useful place for those of us from quebec to vent and exchange within a canadian politics context, a thread to discuss the ndp in the context of quebec, and a quick go-to thread for non-quebecers to learn/keep up. this paradigm will become increasingly important as harper continues to isolate and infuriate quebec voters, and the province heads into another election within the next year, with a strong probability that marois forms government.
just to start off, i think this assessment by chantal is exactly right: "At a time when Quebec is already dangerously estranged from the federal government of the day, a Wildrose victory stood to increase its growing alienation from the rest of the federation."
the pro-independence forces have to be somewhat disappointed that albertans didn't immediately confirm that they were the insane francophobic troglodyte maniacs that we all assume them to be.
and also to bring the day's other quebec-related news (since the count's comments on scottish independence are a media-generated controversy with exactly zero interest to quebecois, who will universally see what he said as uncontroversial) - the first crop poll since the leadership has mulcair's ndp in a commanding position in quebec, the likes of which hasn't been seen since mulroney won virtually all the seats:
NDP: 51, BQ: 18 LPC: 15 CPC 13
- the ndp number among francophones is 54%, bq numbers is 22%, plc 11%, pcc 10% - numbers enough for the ndp to win every single seat in the province, most by embarrassing margins.
INDEPENDENT QUEBEC: OUI: 36, NON: 64
DISSATISFACTION, FEDERAL: 68%
Quebec's place in the federation is ultimately for the people of that province to decide. Any national party that tries to run on a specific set of constitutional proposals will go down in flames.
The NDP was adamant ion 1992 that the people in Quebec wanted the Charlottetown Accord and we were told that rejecting it would be a rejection of Quebec. The political elites got it wrong, wrong and wrong. In both Quebec and BC it was defeated because the voters didn't listen to the elite's wisdom. The NDP lost most of its seats and the BQ and Reform arose.
Does anyone know which side of the 1992 Referendum Mulcair was on?
Mulroney rode real high until he got the God complex and thought he could be the one true saviour to solve the constitutional riddle. Mulcair should remember what happened to the PC's both in Quebec and Western Canada in the 1993 election.
Confederation doesn't work.
The Prairies don't like Ontario/Quebec politics and (in the case of Quebec) do not like Alberta politics.
The Conservatives had a chance to be the government for all Canadians..That would mean COMPROMISE and thorough debate...These are 2 things the Cons despise and don't give a shit about.
The solution is simple..Quebec is a sovereign country within Canada or the provinces themselves should be given more power and have full control of domestic social policies,immigration and taxation.
Of course this would end Confederation,which is a colossal failure anyway.
What works in one province may or may not reflect or work in another...2 polar opposites are the Prairies and Quebec..Polar opposite philosophies and and in public opinion.
The day that Canada is no more is on the horizon...and the fact is,our current government is working tirelessly to see this happen.
I wouldn't say Confederation doesn't work, but rather that it continues to be a work in progress. Unless, of course, you're advocating for a more republican relationship between federal and provincial jurisdictions (like the States), in which case the relationship between Québec and the rest of Canada is a model for how the provinces should share power with the feds.
Personally, I wouldn't want to see that happen. Québec is unique -- in reality and in law -- and their status reflects that. They are a nation within a nation (even when the concept of nationhood is fast becoming outdated). Québec's unique status is something that sets Canada apart from other states, and while I don't think the expanse of the country could function with the kind of regional autonomy that Québec has, it is what sets us apart from our cousins in Western "democracy".
If only the First Nations could be granted the same status.
I believe Canada has a government that desires Quebec seperation more than Quebec currently does. I'm not being facetious.
Obviously, because Harper is keeping on that asshole Christine Paradis in cabinet.
Seriously, Harper is committed to breaking Canada up - why else would he support the WRA and their Alberta firewall policies - of which Harper was the author???
First, construct the Alberta firewall - second, push Quebec to the breaking point. Unfortunately for him, Alberta elected the wrong party.
Personally, I've been an advocate of Quebec separation ever since Harper became PM. I want nothing to do with that arrogant self serving prick and his asshole caucus.
I would have to agree with Jeff.
The sovereignty option,or rather,seperation is not on the front burner in Quebec's court of opinion.
In fact,never in the past 50 years has Quebec been more willing to be part of Canada.
But on issues such as the gun registry and some of the more radically right wing approaches of this current federal government,Quebec and Canada couldn't be further apart.
Yes,the Harperites would probably be deliriously content with Quebec seperating but the one province that should seperate is Alberta--which I think the Harperites would be equally or even more ecstatic with.
I think Quebec has proven itsself as the 'conscience' of this country.
I still believe,because of the size of this country geographically and it's differences in opinion,the provinces should have vast powers over the feds.
Look at Alberta..It's hopelessly right wing,as is the Prairies and the Blue Crush which happened in Ontario.
I think if you were to poll Quebeckers,they may lean a little to the right fiscally..But socially,Quebec is not,as of now,a fascist state.
And this is probably why the Cons can't win any ground in Quebec....I applaud my government's defiance of the gun registry for example....'Since May of last year,I have never been more proud of Quebec and never more militantly sovereignist.
Maybe that's the Cons master plan..who knows?
Geez, from the level of chatter in here you would think the Wild Rose had won last night, instead of being rejected.
I certainly admire Quebec for some of the issues on which it is more progressive than some other parts of Canada, but I wouldn't get too smug about it. Is this what we're supposed to drop in and learn?
As for conservatives not gaining any ground in Quebec, I think Brian Mulroney is the proof that is not absolutely true. If it happened before it can easily happen again.
It will never happen with the Harper conservatives.
Remember,last election they lost half their seats in Quebec...Their best numbers since 1988 is 10 seats.
I'm not trying to be smug...I'm just pointing out that some provinces (RE: Alberta) are far more right wing than Quebec...And I'm not stating that Quebec is left wing---it's not...But socially,we're not nearly as close to fascism as we're seeing in some other parts of the country.
I just believe that this country is at a crossroads...The provinces are all different and it will be close to impossible to represent all Canadians..The provinces should have more power.
Right now we have a federal government committed exclusively to their constituents...This is not how to run a Confederation.
Quebec is quite capable of electing members from CAQ its own version of the WRP.
Charest and Campbell were two peas in a pod so it seems to me the voters of Quebec have not been doing so good electing progressive governments either. Federally the voters of Quebec inflicted Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien and Martin on us. Give me a break with this new mythology of the Quebec body politic being nothing but a progressive force in Canadian politics.
The CAQ was polling high when they first emerged...they are not polling very well anymore.
Why? Because most people have realized that the CAQ is not a new party but the ADQ with a new monicker.
The next election may come as early as the Spring and the race will be against the PLQ and PQ (the latter is gaining momentum)
Canada is a failure...either the provinces take over or the system is changed where majority governments are a thing of the past and coalition governments take over so ALL Canadians are represented instead of 30 fucking % of the populous.
You don't consider that a smug comment? What part of the country are you refering to?
As for feeling isolated from the rest of Canada, I can remember a few federal elections in which the moment the polls closed in Manitoba we already had a government because it had all been decided down east.
I think there's something to be gained in listening to others' perspectives, since we probably have more similarities than differences when it comes to dealing with a large and diverse country like this.
Speaking of which, so as not to go too far off on a tangent, I'll wait to hear if there are any other enlightening opinions from your fine nation.
First priority is getting rid of that bastard Charest.
double post
What can I say?..I bleed blue and white.
Bernard Landry was right..The Canadian flag is a red rag and Canada is not much better.
Quebec should never sign into the Constitution until it is written that Quebec is a sovereign nation within Canada.
BTW,I vote QS but the PQ will win the next election.
F*** Canada.
Thanks for that, CCO. I don't understand how Charest manages to stay on, and now especially with so many against his Plan Nord.
"squeaking out a continued hold on power": Are you sure you are posting from Quebec? Sounds terribly familiar.
Yes... especially terribly familiar when you consider that back in the day they were both federal Tories working for Brian Mulroney's government.
I find some of the comments here to be more offensive than enlightening or constructive
I have seen some very right wing actors from Québec.
At present the current premier of Alberta provided a spirited defence of medicare that Charest would not ever express. Sure I am not friendly to the Alberta PCs but I can notice that the governments that are the most hostile to medicare include Québec at present -- happily privatizing what it can.
I feel some of the expression here appears to want to provoke any anti-Québec people that might be around-- in short picking a fight.
As for the viability of multi-national states, I don't agree that it is necessarily dysfunctional. And Harper is increasingly a national problem. Québec has opposed some nasty governments and it has helped elect some as well.
I don't get why venom against all of Canada-- except Québec-- is somehow acceptable when attacks on any individual region would not be.
I am disgusted with the current government of Canada and its positions on many things-- but changing that government is a goal.
Rudeness is not required to make a strong expression of Québec's self determination or to argue what direction it will go. This is not a Québec only community so a little respect is reasonable and fair. Since I have often spoken up to defend Québec in this place when someone else is being rude, I think it is fair to say some of this goes over the top in the other direction.
There seems to be widespread agreement on that - until it comes to actually defining what that's supposed to mean and there it seems nobody, sovereigntist or federalist, has a very good answer.
He stays on because there is no alternative. Who else is there for Quebecers to support? The PQ stands for another divisive referendum in sovereignty and nothing else and are led by a woman who could be cast as Madame Defarge in a 20th century remake of Tale of Two Cities and the CAQ are a bunch of rightwing crackpots. People figure better the devil you know than the devil you don't
Charest broke the 2-terms-yer-out rule that marked Quebec party politics (Liberal/PQ/Liberal/PQ/Liberal...) for a generation,
so no telling how long he can hold on.... how old is he? just 57 or so?
There in lies the rub. To me the answer is if Quebec wants to be a sovereign nation that is their right just get on with it and stop trying to say you want a relationship where the only sovereign entity in a federation is your electorate. I am not interested in an unequal relationship and will never support any constitutional amendment that entrenches some sort of super status for Quebec. If Quebec wants to be sovereign it needs to secede otherwise it must come to the table willing to be one amongst equals.
There were many proposals on the table in the early 1990's. The problem is that even within Quebec there is no consensus on the details and the Charlottetown Accord debacle shows that finding the right mix to please both Quebec federalists and separatists is not possible. The constitution is likely the least important issue of anyone outside of Quebec who is not a political junkie. I saw part of the Orange Crush last year as the Quebec voters reaction to Layton downplaying the issue at every opportunity. Mulcair would do well to stick to the same script.
Keep in mind that Layton did make several statements towards the end of the campaign last year about wanting to get Quebec to sign the constitution once there were "winning conditions" for Canada in Quebec - and that was a very popular move. All Mulcair is doing is retierating what Jack was saying all along.
I apologize for losing my temper.
I just don't feel I have anything in common with Canada anymore.
I don't understand why Quebec sovereignty isn't more of an active issue today - I agree with Justin Trudeau that Harper's extreme right wing is making the idea of Quebec separation from Canada more likely. Hell, I want separation from Jean Charest as well as Harper!!!
very uninformative discussion.
anyway, the point of this thread was - i think maybe naively - to promote discussion of the politics of quebec in canada, not to provide a forum for anti-canada sentiment or a series of bizarre suppositions based on anglophone media interpretations of macro social trends in quebec.