babble-intro-img
babble is rabble.ca's discussion board but it's much more than that: it's an online community for folks who just won't shut up. It's a place to tell each other — and the world — what's up with our work and campaigns.

Greece to hold early elections on May 6th

54 replies [Last post]

Comments

Ken Burch
Offline
Joined: Feb 26 2005

I wonder if there's any chance that the remnant of PASOK which survived the election will realize that it has no way of surviving unless it breaks with the ND's and breaks with austerity entirely?

They have to understand by now that, even if things somehow got better for the average Greek because of a PASOK-ND coalition, only ND itself, as the senior coalition partner would get any credit at all for that from the voters.  PASOK itself, by contrast, would end up going down the path of, of all parties, the National Liberals of 1930's through 1950's British politics.  Why would they even bother taking such a suicidal and, frankly, politically masochistic direction?


Fidel
Offline
Joined: Apr 29 2004

Ken Burch wrote:
 Why would they even bother taking such a suicidal and, frankly, politically masochistic direction?

 

Well you've teased it out of me. Economist Michael Hudson would likely say they are corrupt. He doesn't have very many good things to say about social democrat parties in Europe.


Caissa
Offline
Joined: Jun 14 2006

At the BBC website the top 8 parties are listed constituting 81% of the popular vote. Does anyone know how the other 19 was distributed?


Jacob Richter
Offline
Joined: Oct 19 2008

Ken Burch wrote:
Or Rosa Luxemburg.

She was neither an economic nationalist (i.e., leaving the EU) nor a prolific organizer.

Anyway, have you considered the possibility that the KKE's Stalin rhetoric is just a cover for the kind of collaborationist activity we saw during the Greek protests (initiating scrums against those wanting to go through and protest inside the parliament)?  Don't forget their coalitionist moves in the not-so-recent past, either.


NorthReport
Offline
Joined: Jul 6 2008

Greek Leftist in Spotlight as Coalition Talks Begin

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230436310457738998330686866...

Mr. Tsipras, an admirer of Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, has been advocating annulling Greece's bailout agreement with its foreign creditors, the euro-zone countries and the International Monetary Fund. He has raged against the austerity measures and deep structural reforms demanded of Greece in exchange for hundreds of billions of euros in financial aid.

He has also campaigned for debt forgiveness, or at the very least a moratorium on debt servicing for the next three years. Mr. Tspiras argues that this is the only way the country can build a primary surplus and extend a safety net of support to a growing number of citizens suffering from the deep recession, now in its fifth consecutive year.

But he has been less clear about whether he wants Greece to stay in the euro, the 17-nation currency bloc.

"The parties that signed the memorandum now form a minority. Their signatures have been delegitimized by the people," Mr. Tsipras said on Sunday. "The people showed at the ballot that national salvation doesn't go through the memorandum."

With no obvious combination of parties able to coalesce into a stable governing majority, Greece looks increasingly likely to go to elections again in a few weeks. June 10 is being floated as one possible date.

If Mr. Tsipras wins the next election—and his support grows as many expect—it will be difficult for other leftist parties not to join him in a coalition, including the former ruling Socialist party, which saw a big part of its supporters voting for Syriza.

And with that, Mr. Tsipras won't just have a seat at the table—he'll be sitting at the head of the table.

Spiros Rizopoulos, a political communications strategist and Chief Executive of Spin Communications, thinks that a second round of elections is inevitable—and would likely favor Syriza at the expense of the country's two mainstream parties.

"Tsipras will do better in a second round. He has momentum at a time when people are ready to listen to anything," said Mr. Rizopoulos. "If he is smart, he will start moving to the center. But politics is all about momentum and he has got the momentum."

Two years of harsh austerity measures Greece has adopted in exchange for successive bailouts from its European partners and the International Monetary Fund have pushed the economy deep into recession.

Unemployment, at close to 22%, is at record highs, business bankruptcies are soaring while consumer spending has plunged after slashed pensions and wages, along with higher taxes on everything from fuel to personal income. As a result, Syriza, along with a handful of other antiausterity parties, has surged as voters rejected the two mainstream parties that back them.

"The most irresponsible act would be to go to new elections, because new elections won't change anything. In fact protest parties, antiausterity parties like Syriza will likely get more support," said Ilias Nikolakopoulos a professor of political science at Athens University.


NDPP
Offline
Joined: Dec 28 2008

Greek Conservatives Fail to Form Coalition

http://presstv.com/detail/240071.html

"Greek conservative leader Antonis Samaras has failed in talks on forming a unity government after being shunned by anti-austerity parties who made strong gains in recent parliamentary elections."

If Elections Could Change Things, They'd Be Illegal - by Nikos Kosmatopoulus

http://www.zcommunications.org/if-elections-could-change-things-theyd-be...

"The old anarchist slogan that inspired this article's title has gained urgent actuality in Greece.."


M. Spector
Offline
Joined: Feb 19 2005

Greek elections: If the left were united they could have won

Quote:
The results of yesterday's parliamentary elections in Greece – a political earthquake –are a clear indication of the growing radicalisation of society on the basis of the historic deadlock of capitalism and the movement towards an openly revolutionary situation.

SYRIZA is the big winner of the elections and has emerged as the undisputed voice of the turn to the left among the working masses. The high percentage it received and its surge towards the concrete possibility of gaining power, is giving back confidence to the working class and the poor masses after two years of numerous defeats, and has placed the ruling class with their backs against the wall, throwing them into confusion and panic.

The big losers on the other hand, are the conservative New Democracy party and the bourgeois leadership of PASOK, who suffered an unprecedented electoral collapse, while the main supports of a bourgeois government, LAOS and Democratic Alliance (Dimokratiki Symmachia, of Dora Bakoyanni) also emerged crushed and failed to get enough votes to enter the new parliament. The only party of the traditional bourgeois camp which gathered a satisfactory number of votes was the party of Mr Kammenos, the “Independent Greeks” (Anexartiti Hellines), based on anti-austerity demagogy. The "Golden Dawn" neo-Nazis (Chrysi Avgi) benefited from the disintegration of the traditional bourgeois parties and the political confusion among the backward petty bourgeois layers and thus were able to win a relatively high percentage, a warning to the Left and the labour movement.


quizzical
Offline
Joined: Dec 8 2011

 a neo-Nazi party called Golden Path won seats in Greece. Germany seems to have total control over Europe now. Are Europeans going to revolt en masse?


M. Spector
Offline
Joined: Feb 19 2005

The neo-Nazi party is called Golden Dawn, actually, as indicated in the post above yours.

Your quick segue from the neo-Nazis in Greece to the Germans' "total control" over Europe suggests you see some connection there. Are you trying to equate the Germans as a whole with the neo-Nazi fringe?


Caissa
Offline
Joined: Jun 14 2006

Scroll towards the bottom of the page and this gives the vote breakdown in detail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Greece


Slumberjack
Offline
Joined: Aug 8 2005

M. Spector wrote:
The neo-Nazi party is called Golden Dawn, actually...

Sounds like an invitation to be pissed on with each waking day.


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

When I start my own party I am going to call it Golden Fleece.


Caissa
Offline
Joined: Jun 14 2006

An Argonauts fan are you, KenS?


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

Jason will be king.

But we have to get there. Meanwhile, this guy will head up the Complaints Department.

[The poor guy on the left is leaving his complaint.]


quizzical
Offline
Joined: Dec 8 2011

M. Spector wrote:
The neo-Nazi party is called Golden Dawn, actually, as indicated in the post above yours.

Your quick segue from the neo-Nazis in Greece to the Germans' "total control" over Europe suggests you see some connection there. Are you trying to equate the Germans as a whole with the neo-Nazi fringe?

T'anks for correcting my error.

not trying to equate anything though do find it weird that Germany is busy telling countries what they can and cant do 'cause they don't like the election results.  well it seems that way to me but admittedly i really don't pay attention much just happened to catch the news.


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

The leader of Syriza- as the second place in votes- is now trying to put together an anti-austerity coalition.

But the most likely outcome is just new elections in mid-June.

If so, puts PASOK on the hot seat. Probably: reverse themselves or die. And who knows, fear of the even worse fate for them in a new election might push them to choose coalition with Syriza as their least hopeless option. More or less, beg forgiveness of voters, and see if they have a long term future. [Down the road, SYRIZA and PASOK sort of swallow each other.]

Something like that.


West Coast Greeny
Offline
Joined: Sep 14 2004

I think were going to another election. The folks in PASOK support the austerity regime as a matter of principle, not a matter of political opportunism. I think SYRIZA storms to victory in June.


NorthReport
Offline
Joined: Jul 6 2008

Gather Spain is next on the rich people, er... banker's shitlist!

 



Eurozone crisis live: second attempt to form government in Greece fails

• Greek leftist leader Tsipras announces failure of coalition talks
• New election likely for Greece
• €1bn held back from planned bailout tranche for Thursday
Spanish banks said to need €35bn extra provisions

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/09/eurozone-crisis-greek-eur...


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

West Coast Greeny wrote:

The folks in PASOK support the austerity regime as a matter of principle, not a matter of political opportunism. I think SYRIZA storms to victory in June.

Anybody know if PASOK is really that unflinching? [And if so, why refuse to join a new coalition with ND?]

I'm sure that the SYRIZA grassroots is full of former PASOK activists. Has a good chunk of the institutional structure of PASOK also deserted, even working actively in SYRIZA? [Like former MPs, party workers, intellectuals formerly very close to PASOK, etc.]


West Coast Greeny
Offline
Joined: Sep 14 2004

The short answer, Ken, is yes. The ones that are left anyways.

31 of the 160 PASOK MPs left the party as the party continued to support austerity measures. 8 of them formed a party called "Social Agreement" which didn't win any seats, 6 moved over to a splinter party of SYRIZA, called Democratic Left, which won 19 seats last election. A bunch (around 15?) sat as independents. I'm not sure any actually went over to SYRIZA, as that party actually lost MPs over the last parlimentary session, largely to Democratic Left. 

Voters and activists obviously abandoned the party in droves. Popular support for PASOK collapsed from 43% in 2009 to 13% last election. The folks in PASOK running for another term in parliament knew the best case scenario for the party was to win around 18% of the vote, clip SYRIZA for 2nd, and, with the NDs, continue in government as a junior member of a pro-austerity coalition. It's hard to call them opportunistic.

There's a number of people in Greece, a minority, who, for whatever reason, still see austerity as the path for Greece to continue following. 33% of Greeks still supported the October 2011 deal with the EU and IMF. I imagine that number is a fair bit smaller now, but it's not zero. NDs and PASOK still won 33% of the vote.

It's also important to note that a majority of Greeks, around 65%, preferred staying in the Euro. SYRIZA also campaigned to stay in the Euro, but the mainstream parties are claiming Greece will just get kicked out of the currency union. That might have prompted some of those who are against austerity, but still against leaving the Euro, to continue voting for the centrist parties.

Hope that wasn't tl;dr.


Caissa
Offline
Joined: Jun 14 2006

The leader of Greece's main socialist party, Evangelos Venizelos, is holding a series of talks on forming a coalition to deal with the debt crisis.

Mr Venizelos is the third party head to try and reach a deal since Sunday's election produced a hung parliament.

Earlier, observers said there was some hope of a deal after Mr Venizelos met the head of a smaller, left-wing party.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18030786


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

West Coast Greeny wrote:

It's also important to note that a majority of Greeks, around 65%, preferred staying in the Euro. SYRIZA also campaigned to stay in the Euro, but the mainstream parties are claiming Greece will just get kicked out of the currency union. That might have prompted some of those who are against austerity, but still against leaving the Euro, to continue voting for the centrist parties.

I didnt know the number was that high, but I'm always puzzled by this clinging to the euro. It's the same in Spain.

Spain I get- they havent been really pressed yet. But clinging to the euro in Greece?

From across the pond this looks absolutley doomed- kicked out or opt out first... from here it just looks like which. From here, Greece and the euro dont look like an option. Its just when and how. "If" is a fantasy.

I can see why the bankers and the mainstream political culture wants to pretend its not ineviatble- they're sunk otherwise. But what's in for the people that hate the austerity regime.

Granted, I dont understand the particular additional dislocations that come with exiting the euro, on top of the collapse to date. But do Greeks clinging to the dream of the euro know something I dont know about that?


KenS
Offline
Joined: Aug 6 2001

Look at Iceland.

Different political culture, and they didnt have the euro to lose.

But they've been through the wringer. From my perspective, having been there, through the wringer when you have the typical Nordic social safety net looks pretty tame. It certainly isnt as brutal as loosing your job in Greece. But this is all relative- it was painful to the people of Iceland.

They are stabilizing. But being so small, they need another currency. That was always going to be the euro, eventually. And they are definitely Europeans. Very different [and a lot like North Americans], but Europeans nonetheless.

But most of them dont want the euro now. [Duh.] Which is why they are looking at the Canadian dollar. [That and being linked to an economy as similar to their's as possible- also resource export based.] Nt to get off on the tangent of the fascinating to us story of someone else adopting the Canadian dollar.... the point being that the attractions of the euro are quite tempered.


Slumberjack
Offline
Joined: Aug 8 2005

The cadence of the global commodity hasn't changed step one iota since the cracks in it's ideology became gaping fissures in 2007, when it could no longer be concealed by being plastered over with lies.  The political order regardless of any stripe, which spans Europe and North America, is unresponsive to anything except for the dictates of the commodity exchange.


Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
Login or register to post comments