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The called for effect from reading your contributions here could certainly use a finger or two, if only for demonstration purposes.
Oh of course I said that!
I was referring to your reference to sprawling prison complexes and your weak inference that I am agreeable to whatever decrees Harper declares law of the land.
It's not a new law. And I don't know anyone imprisoned for the current max of five years anytime recently for having worn a mask while committing a criminal offence. But we can be sure that you know a few. I'll bet you can count all of them on no fingers.
I won't even try in kind to associate anything you've said as being supportive of right-rightists' non-right to wear masks while terrorizing civilians.
who idea this bill?? I believe it is come from Vic Toews? Because he angry at someone Anonymous post video Youtube who wear mask/
Right?
Pretty weird that the OP was more outraged by the NDP opposing this bill (but not using the rhetoric that would play best on rabble) rather than the Conservatives for actually introducing it in the first place.
Hey Smith, here's a German anti-nazi rally I video'd a few months ago. You can see how some of the hardcore anarchists are fairly covered up around 3 minutes in and some of them were certainly camera-shy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2q68uxuwyU&feature=g-upl
I used to think masks were sneaky and a sign of criminal intent. But in our modern, irrational surveillance states I think they're a legitimate accessory.
Just got back to this thread. Here's what I think triggered this fascist measure, at least in the immediate sense:
Montréal city council to vote next Friday on bylaw banning masks and forcing organizers to provide route of march in advance to police
This isn't just about masks. It's about diluting and destroying the freedom of assembly. Over the past three months of student strikes and protests, police forces in Québec have on countless occasions declared demonstrations or marches to be "illegal assemblies", similar to "reading the Riot Act" (see this). I don't understand all the legalities involved, but I've never before seen, on a routine daily basis, cops declaring assemblies "illegal" and then arresting, charging, fining participants just for not "dispersing" fast enough, even if they didn't hear the declaration.
The emphasis by the media on masks, IMHO, is a trap and a diversion. It would be very convenient for the authorities if the debate degenerated into "freedom of expression through dress", etc. This is preparation for banning assemblies of all kinds, at the whim of the cops. It must be opposed by everyone - on the proper grounds, otherwise most people just won't get what the fuss is all about.
@ Merowe
THanks. I'm not surprised that some people are flouting that law.
Why is anyone asking me about what people do in the cold?
I am not defending the idea that it should be illegal to wear a mask while doing something legal.
There already is a law against wearing a mask while committing a crime-- I have no trouble with that.
I have also argued against any concept of guilt by proximity-- or the idea that assembly could be ciminalized.
****
Now when it comes to fighting this bill the Charter is the right tool.
And if someone is charged the Charter must be used.
When it comes to the access to law issue there are problems but high profile cases like this do get fought.
We can also raise money for a case like this quite quickly if we recognize that a Charter challenge must be brought.
To call that passive is ridiculous. What are you suggesting? Laying aside our legal options to pursue street fighting that will only make it worse?
And yes if a Charter challenge is brought and won there would be loads of civil suits if people were being charged anyway.
There will be no shortage of lawyers paid or unpaid to fight this one.
Sean.
I'm not questioning or challenging you. I am adding to your argument. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.
Batman, Zorro, The Lone Ranger, not to mention: tag-team wrestlers, are now potential criminals! And, what If a riot broke out at a masquerade ball?
DSloth, I think that's because while we expect this bullshit from the Cons, some of us sometimes think that the NDP may actually someday oppose draconian bullshit, but time and time again the NDP, and its unwavering supporters on babble, choose to toe the party line. The fact that this is an abhorrent and disgusting proposal from the Cons doesn't seem to matter to the Orange Wavers.
smh
Just wow, Fidel. Try being a young man of colour just walking down the street. Every day.
It's a crime to be racialized.
It's a crime to be poor.
It's a crime to protest.
While the jail terms are too strong, I support the concept of not allowing masks to public protests. (Unless they're all Stephen Harper masks, because that would be perfect for a peaceful protest in Ottawa!)
Too often it seems masks are now being used to hide behind in order to intimidate the public, or cause damage to public property or other people's private property. This thuggery and violence is completely unacceptable in a civil society.
If someone wants to disrupt the public peace, then they should do it with their face visible. If they've got principles strong enough to lead them to vandalism and intimidation, then they should do it with their face exposed.
Sorry to those who don't agree, but I have seen white supremist marchers in downtown Calgary, all with faces covered, and they are VERY intimidating to the public. I don't think it should be allowed.
The NDP are demonstrating that they are now 'responsible' members of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, and fit to govern our great confederation. I would have hoped that they might have all sat across the aisle wearing Guy Fawkes masks (which, I think, bear a striking resemblance to a smiling Jack Layton).
Amazing, but predictable, the topics that will get the very most attention on babble.... albeit, a gnasher like this is not always available.
Its not the measure of relative importance of issues.
It is the measure of what outrages people.
Those of course may overlap, even very closely.
But I would suggest that it is the second that takes primacy for what gets the most attention here.
Really? I'm shivering in fear.
Ah, I see, and the mask makes it impossible for the riot squad, which is on the scene, to nab the perp, for fear of... damaging the mask??
Ah, I see, so it's not really the mask - it's the thuggery and violence. So opposing this new law means supporting thuggery and violence. Thanks!
Fuck, that's good, but why just "disruption of the public peace"? Why not other crimes?????? How about this: Anyone who violates any law should contact the media and show their unmasked face! If not - 10 years in the lockup!
Ah, so it's just for people who are acting out of "principles". Wearing a mask while driving drunk or beating one's spouse should be fine - no principles involved there. Thanks!!! I'm learning so much today!!!
You're ok with the white supremacists showing their white faces, though. Thanks!!!
I expect Harper to be a right wing asshole. I have worked on elections for forty years to get a left voice in the H of C and this is not the voice I was hoping for. I joined the party partly because of the NDP's stance during the October crisis. I expect them to rail against the trend to turn Canada into a totalitarian state not try to equivocate on it. Sorry for being too idealistic for the new NDP.
She should have said we have laws already and the concept of this bill is very, very bad. Note I did not claim the NDP supported the bill but merely the 'concept" of jail time for wearing a mask to a protest. They need to do better or what is the point.
As well some of the NDP insiders read thread here and they need to hear more than an echo chamber and need feed back when they are losing it.
ETA: By the way I opened up a thread at the same time comparing Harper to Cromwell . That makes it almost eerie in its weirdness.
The only resaon I can see the NDP supporting this ..is if they know they will be the next government and what they have in store for the right may cause them too protest..No need for the left too.
The right will not protest like the left, they will actually use weapons and such..they attract the racist , bigot, extremest etc etc. The NDP knows this and has to be prepared to herd them up and the no mask law will be good...Remember the Conservatives are only in power cause they cheated...the real govt, and it is higly probable - is the NDP.
What should be happening right now and it isn't, is all lefty Canadians should be rounding up the Con MP's from coast to coast and arresting them...think what would be happening if the tables were turned and it was the NDP that cheated and fraudulently won the election, passing laws and bills like there is no tomorrow with no debate ..think about it! ..exactly ..there would be blood in the streets and you can take that to the bank.
So yes , altho we can't see it now ..it may be a good law. For the lefty protestor that has to put up with provocateuers it may be essential now..so easily stepped on ..the right is probably laughing there heads off at the tolerance and timidness of the left....
"Look we just cheated them out of their democracy and all they can do is talk, hahahaha, what a pile of whimps"
Show me those 200 ridings Conservative scum buckets ...show me the second place winners!
New http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zky2bn0Gtyg New
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QvXax88J8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0eQgUpkJ1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns8LD5Q8ecc
Was it you who recently said that you've never experienced being gassed at a demonstration?
Perhaps not, but that's not to say that people aren't being targetted by both the state and corporate thugs.
I can't find the link now, but just this week I was reading a letter that someone wrote to one of our local radio stations. He described how he was visited at his home by a group of thugs who were there to intimidate him after he had participated in a protest to protect an important source of drinking water from industry.
I've had a few experiences of my own. Not because I did something "stupid", but because I was recognized as one of the organizers of an entirely peaceful and lawful protest which rubbed some local cops the wrong way because our march temporarily slowed traffic during morning rush hour.
I'm sure similar things happen more often than we're aware.
You don't think that people who lack permanent status in Canada put themselves at risk when they speak out against the government?
Like you said, this isn't Egypt, but I saw many people at last year's rallies at the Egyptian embassy who wore masks to protect their relatives back home.
You said it.
This is an extremely important issue because there is certainly going to be more unrest in the Canadian population this year and in the years to come, be it student unrest or protests against the Harper government - and the powers that be - governments, corporations, mayors, premiers, police - all want to control our lives and outlaw dissent to the degree possible. Picking us off with these draconian laws fits into their narrative perfectly. The NDP either has to stand with us or get the fuck out of the way.
Falsely arrested and not even wearing a mask!
http://www.provincialcourt.bc.ca/judgments/pc/2012/01/p12_0109.htm
This point should not get lost in the noise.
Thanks, JeffWells, I was complicit in burying my own point. Yeah, I think we probably need a separate and thoroughgoing discussion about the threats to freedom of assembly (a freedom which isn't quite explicitly set out in the Charter, I believe, but has been read into it via freedom of expression and association).
And I'll second Boom Boom's point, enthusiastically:
Indeed all totalitarian governments ban specific protests and then arrest people for not disbursing.
I also want to reiterate that it is only when the police show up prepared to go to war that protests become violent. They instigate the violence and when they do everyone is then at a riot.
Fidel you have obviously not been up close and personal with our police when they are dressed to kill. At the Olympic Opening Ceremony protest I was in the front line when we arrived at the point where the police said we could march too. Throughout the evening they began pushing the crowds back from the line they had set. As a person in the front I merely stood my ground. The next day both my arms were bruised and very sore. The cops did not even hit me it was merely the pressure of the armour they were wearing on my arms from standing still and refusing to be pushed backwards. It was winter and I had a long sleeve shirt, a fleecy and a a rain jacket on and I was black and blue.
I don't understand why the conversation is going in this direction.
Do people have trouble with the idea that committing a crime while being masked should not allow additional criminal charges?
I think that is all the NDP has agreed to.
The problematic issues remain:
1) making this dependent on what others are doing-- guilt by proximity. As long as you are peaceful I see no reason why a person should not be able to have their face covered even if someone else is breaking the law.
2) there remains a need to make sure the right to peaceful assembly is not interfered with
3) any penalty needs to be proportionate -- ten years for wearing a mask might be fine for an armed robbery but not for kicking over a garbage can
Before people get too upset -- this is a media interpreted partial position of the NDP. To say the NDP is not against a law prohibiting people to riot with masks on-- in principle -- is not a horrible thing. Let's see the details of the NDP position before getting upset. Also people can express their concerns to MPs as well.
I know I'm a bit late on this, but I just want to express how appalled I am at Fidel's comments in this thread. Sheesh, I support the NDP too, but supporting a party doesn't mean trying to interpret their every contradictory statement as part of some clever master narrative. And as for your comments about demonstrations, I have to agree with some other people on here that they just seem very privileged and naive.
Well yeah that was mr piggy's big night out!..They train intensly for the day they can beat you over the head with there baton and damage your brain , so you can later have some kind of excuse for a crime you commit..The modern day piggy is a Nazi and I'm not telling you this ..you can talk to any over 40 year old piggy and they will tell it to you too. I'm telling you they can't wait to lay a licking on there fellow Canadians..this what they are paid to do and are trained to do.
Believe me they know how to humiliate,instigate and cause and cover up..they for all intents and purposes are a well organized gang and well armed and funded..they stick together like some kind of cult where they refer to each other as members of the brotherhood and Canadians should remember these things when confronting them.
Like all cultural problems they stem from the top..Harper must be stopped
...or you can if not already say goodbye to democracy of any kind.
If current trends are sustained, demonstration might ultimately involve the acquisition of an official licence providing for clearly designated routes to and from for the purpose of marching, two minutes of rage at the protest site itself, followed by immediate dispersal at the discretion of the police, all the while taking care to ensure everyone's faces are bared for the security cameras. ~Wait-aaa-sec~
There does seem to be extremes in this conversation that I don't quite understand:
On one side the idea that nobody would have the right to wear a mask at a demo is absurd. Saying that this is limited to demos where there is trouble is also nonsensical since that can happen quickly and through the fault of the authorities. A person should never be accountable for someone else's behaviour. A person should not have to provide their face for identification while doing somethign that is legal.
At the same time to suggest there should be no sanctions on a person who is wearing a mask while committing a crime is also unreasonable.
Shouldn't we find out the NDP position on the aspects of this bill we have trouble with before going further? I believe the NDP is saying the second point above not the first.
That said the NDP ought to clarify what parts of this are acceptable and what parts are not. People here could be calling for that.