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Arrest Israel's New Defence Attache Eden Attias as a Gaza War Criminal

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kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Dostoyevsky wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

Let the pro-Zionist witch-hunt continue!

Yes people who object to the phrase "dirty zionist" must be pro-zionist warmongers.  Why not just say zionist vermin?  Using these words to try and make Israeli Zionists seem less than human is juvenille and stupid and has absolutely nothing to do with justice for the people of Gaza.  It's trolling by NDPP - plain and simple.

Happy Nakba Day

But don't say that anywhere in Israel or a police officer of IDF personnel will clean your clock. Nothing dirty about that.

 

Quote:

Zaheya Madi, a Palestinian woman who was born in 1947, said she was one year old when her family was forced to leave their village, Beit Jerja, during the war in 1948 when Israel closed to the borders with the Gaza Strip. "I can't remember anything, but I still miss my home," she said.

The Palestinian Central Statistics Bureau said in a report to mark Nekba Day that Israel controlled 774 Palestinian towns and villages, and 531 of these towns were ruined. It also said Israeli soldiers killed 15,000 Palestinians before, during or after the war in 1948.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-05/15/c_131589919.htm


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Haaretz wrote:

In 2009, Miller introduced a Knesset bill which would have made taking part in a Nakba Day event punishable by arrest and up to three years in prison. The prison sentence was later struck from the bill in order to pave way for its becoming law in 2011.

But Miller's Nakba Law still casts a shadow over events marking the day. Legal experts have noted that if schools or other state-supported institutions merely read the names of Palestinians killed or forced to leave their homes in 1948, they could be fined at the discretion of the Finance Minister.

Is it relevant that Miller, a resident of the settlement city of Ariel and a senior member of Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party, was born and raised in Leonid Brezhnev's Moscow?

It is relevant because for decades, the Jews of Soviet Russia were forbidden to commemorate their heritage. They were barred - with artfully worded and intensively enforced official repression - from gathering to study their true history, reconstruct their shattered culture, and mark the memories of their people.

It is relevant because the Soviet system tried for decades to legislate feelings and creeds and beliefs and the sense of peoplehood, and because the Soviet system, partially as a result, failed.

In the end, though, I have to thank Alex Miller. Had he not sought to make a name for himself with a law to help obliterate the names of others, I might not have spent time this week studying the history of the place I first lived in Israel, and studying about the people who had lived there before.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/thank-you-russian-i...

So what does anyone think of the fact that Canada has allowed a diplomat who is a suspected war criminal to enter the country?

Personally I don't give a flying fuck about his personal hygiene I think he should be banned for being a murderer of innocent people.


NDPP
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M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Catchfire wrote:

It was established in the other thread that many babblers consider the phrase "dirty Zionist" to be offensive. That's enough for me to change the thread title.

It's been established in this thread and elsewhere that many babblers don't consider it offensive. What's offensive is the implication that Col. Attias doesn't belong on the IDF Cast Lead Dirty 200 list — that he is in fact a clean Zionist.

Babble has always been at best ambivalent towards anti-Zionism. Now it seems it just takes two or three self-appointed language police to get the moderators to censor condemnations of Zionism. And who benefits, objectively, from such censorship? We all know.


Caissa
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Joined: Jun 14 2006

As far as I am concerned condemn Zionism all you wish. All I'm opposing is the coupling of the words dirty and zionist.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

You're fetishizing and decontextualizing words as an excuse to blunt anti-Zionist discourse.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

I think that the people that come on this board only to complain about things like using dirty in front of zionist have an agenda that has little to do with any progressive vision of the ongoing tragedy that is the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

Caissa you post here a lot so I can accept your voice even if I think your wrong on this one.  The adjective dirty gets applied to everyone we don't like.

"Hey, baby, if you're feelin' down
I know what's good for you all day
Are you worried what your friends see
Will it ruin your reputation lovin' me "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUDMy-GplkQ

 Dirty White Trash (with Gulls), 1998

Noble and Webster


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

allah wrote:

Change the title. Maybe a suspesion is in order. If instead of Zionist NDPP used another term (I will not give examples) a banning would occur

Sorry Allah I see you actually joined in 2011.  Tell me since this is all about respecting others, why do you use the Arabic word for god as your posting handle? Seems a bit strange for someone who makes your kind of leaps to antisemitism.


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

M. Spector wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

It was established in the other thread that many babblers consider the phrase "dirty Zionist" to be offensive. That's enough for me to change the thread title.

It's been established in this thread and elsewhere that many babblers don't consider it offensive. What's offensive is the implication that Col. Attias doesn't belong on the IDF Cast Lead Dirty 200 list

 

nobody on this thread or the other thread on which the "Dirty Zionist" usage was questioned was making THAT implication at all.  Attias clearly belongs on that list.  You don't have to accept the use of the term "Dirty Zionist" to accept the guilt of those on that list OR Attias' place on it.  Nor do you even have to be an apologist for Zionism.

You are reading something into peoples' responses that isn't there at all.


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Haaretz wrote:

In 2009, Miller introduced a Knesset bill which would have made taking part in a Nakba Day event punishable by arrest and up to three years in prison. The prison sentence was later struck from the bill in order to pave way for its becoming law in 2011.

But Miller's Nakba Law still casts a shadow over events marking the day. Legal experts have noted that if schools or other state-supported institutions merely read the names of Palestinians killed or forced to leave their homes in 1948, they could be fined at the discretion of the Finance Minister.

Is it relevant that Miller, a resident of the settlement city of Ariel and a senior member of Avigdor Lieberman's Yisrael Beiteinu party, was born and raised in Leonid Brezhnev's Moscow?

It is relevant because for decades, the Jews of Soviet Russia were forbidden to commemorate their heritage. They were barred - with artfully worded and intensively enforced official repression - from gathering to study their true history, reconstruct their shattered culture, and mark the memories of their people.

It is relevant because the Soviet system tried for decades to legislate feelings and creeds and beliefs and the sense of peoplehood, and because the Soviet system, partially as a result, failed.

In the end, though, I have to thank Alex Miller. Had he not sought to make a name for himself with a law to help obliterate the names of others, I might not have spent time this week studying the history of the place I first lived in Israel, and studying about the people who had lived there before.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/thank-you-russian-i...

So what does anyone think of the fact that Canada has allowed a diplomat who is a suspected war criminal to enter the country?

Personally I don't give a flying fuck about his personal hygiene I think he should be banned for being a murderer of innocent people.

You can assume that nobody here is defending either Zionism OR Canada's admission of Col. Attias.  Objecting to the phrase "dirty Zionist" doesn't make you a Likudnik.


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

I notice that those who rush to protect dirty war criminals from their adjectives only do so when they are of the Zionist persuasion;

http://rabble.ca/comment/1346041


alan smithee
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Joined: Jan 7 2010

Watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical,a liberal,a fanatical,criminal


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

NDPP wrote:

This Is Why Zionism Has Become A Dirty Word

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/photo-essay-new-york-jews-te...

 

Those protesters are brave people...they are risking ostracism from, possibly, everybody else they know.

In their honor, I'd like to put this picture from the event directly into this thread:


NDPP
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Joined: Dec 28 2008

and I honour them with you Ken.


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Ken Burch wrote:

You can assume that nobody here is defending either Zionism OR Canada's admission of Col. Attias.  Objecting to the phrase "dirty Zionist" doesn't make you a Likudnik.

I would never presume to know the minds of other posters which is why I am open to the idea that some on this board are defending the state of Israel from justified criticism. Your post screams don't talk about the issue because we all agree. That is also a silencing technique especially when it is far from clear that we all agree.

It is similar to trying to destroy arguments by putting words in your opponent's mouths. For instance you have raised the term Likudnik and no one you are talking to has hurled that insult.  So the talk goes from the issue at hand i.e. letting suspected war criminals into Canada especially as diplomats to a stupid side track of we aren't all right wing assholes.  Allah (nice respectful name for an Israeli supporter) like you not only disagreed with the adjective chosen but also tried to put antisemitic words in NDPP's mouth. One of the preferred tactics of some people is too obfuscate the real issue.  This thread has had little discussion of Canada allowing this outrageous appointment because the title has become the topic of discussion not Israeli war crimes. 

You can presume all you want I prefer to keep an open mind on the subject of peoples intents.


Dostoyevsky
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Joined: Dec 19 2011

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

M. Spector wrote:

Let the pro-Zionist witch-hunt continue!

Yes people who object to the phrase "dirty zionist" must be pro-zionist warmongers.  Why not just say zionist vermin?  Using these words to try and make Israeli Zionists seem less than human is juvenille and stupid and has absolutely nothing to do with justice for the people of Gaza.  It's trolling by NDPP - plain and simple.

Happy Nakba Day

But don't say that anywhere in Israel or a police officer of IDF personnel will clean your clock. Nothing dirty about that.

 

Quote:

Zaheya Madi, a Palestinian woman who was born in 1947, said she was one year old when her family was forced to leave their village, Beit Jerja, during the war in 1948 when Israel closed to the borders with the Gaza Strip. "I can't remember anything, but I still miss my home," she said.

The Palestinian Central Statistics Bureau said in a report to mark Nekba Day that Israel controlled 774 Palestinian towns and villages, and 531 of these towns were ruined. It also said Israeli soldiers killed 15,000 Palestinians before, during or after the war in 1948.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2012-05/15/c_131589919.htm

Believe it or not I agree with you more than you think.  I believe the creation of the state of Israel was wrong and a tragedy for the Palestinian people.  Just because I dislike NDPP and Martin's smug attitudes and their trolling in this thread and felt like commenting on it doesn't mean you know anything about me or my political views.


alan smithee
Online
Joined: Jan 7 2010

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' is somehow 'anti-semtitic'  are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.


Dostoyevsky
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Joined: Dec 19 2011

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    


kropotkin1951
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Joined: Jun 6 2002

Dostoyevsky wrote:

Believe it or not I agree with you more than you think.  I believe the creation of the state of Israel was wrong and a tragedy for the Palestinian people.  Just because I dislike NDPP and Martin's smug attitudes and their trolling in this thread and felt like commenting on it doesn't mean you know anything about me or my political views.

I never said I knew anything about you or your political views.  i guess you can't help trying to put words in other peoples mouths.  I know it seems like an easy way to win a debate but it doesn't work.


alan smithee
Online
Joined: Jan 7 2010

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    

 

Thank you for proving my point.


Dostoyevsky
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Joined: Dec 19 2011

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    

 

Thank you for proving my point.

You made a point ?  What was it exactly ?


alan smithee
Online
Joined: Jan 7 2010

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    

 

Thank you for proving my point.

You made a point ?  What was it exactly ?

You tried to finish my statement..You're confrontational...Conversation is over.


alan smithee
Online
Joined: Jan 7 2010

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    

 

Thank you for proving my point.

You made a point ?  What was it exactly ?

You tried to finish my statement..You're confrontational... I don't find 'dirty zionist' offensive at all...Conversation is over.


Dostoyevsky
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Joined: Dec 19 2011

alan smithee wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Dostoyevsky wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Zionism is not exclusively related with Judaism...Far from it.

I think those who believe the adding of the word 'Dirty' to the word 'Zionist' are just trying to put words in other people's mouths and babble has a nasty habit of smearing those with libelous labels when they disagree with a comment.

The PC train has left the rails.

why not just end this thread drift by admitting that adding the adjective dirty doesn't add anything useful to the conversation except to remind people of the history of using that adjective to describe people.  It's not necessary and a total distraction from the real issues  - land theft, unlawful imprisonment, murder.    

 

Thank you for proving my point.

You made a point ?  What was it exactly ?

You tried to finish my statement..You're confrontational... I don't find 'dirty zionist' offensive at all...Conversation is over.

OK it's over. Sorry if you felt I was rude, I really didn't understand your point.  My point was not to say the phrase was offensive to me personally but that it added nothing except to antagonize Babble allies.


alan smithee
Online
Joined: Jan 7 2010

Dostoyevsky wrote:

 

OK it's over. Sorry if you felt I was rude, I really didn't understand your point.  My point was not to say the phrase was offensive to me personally but that it added nothing except to antagonize Babble allies.

 

Obviously there was some miscommunication..We seem to be on the same page,afterall...Peace and love.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Dostoyevsky wrote:

My point was not to say the phrase was offensive to me personally but that it added nothing except to antagonize Babble allies.

I find your posts in this thread add nothing to the conversation and antagonize me and perhaps others.

So using the same criterion, should I be able to demand that a moderator delete your posts?

I didn't think so.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Ken Burch wrote:

Attias clearly belongs on that list.

I'm sorry, but I can't get past the hypocrisy of saying Attias belongs on the IDF Cast Lead Dirty 200 list, and at the same time being offended by the use of the adjective "dirty".

I'm sure you wouldn't object, for example, to calling a Zionist a "scumbag". Would you?

 

 


Ken Burch
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Joined: Feb 26 2005

Well, if you want to be effective on this issue, you NEED to get past it, because fighting for the right to use the term "Dirty Zionist" isn't worth your time OR the time of any other anti-Zionist. 

The problem with that phrase is that it, even if that isn't the intent of the person using it, "Dirty Zionist" sounds way too much like "Dirty Jew".  I really didn't want to say that directly in the thread, but that's what this is about. 

And believing the two phrases sound alike that does NOT equate to believing that the terms "Zionist" and "Jewish" are interchangeable. It simply means calling on anti-Zionists not to sabotage themselves by using phraseology that their opponents can turn into a weapon against them.

Insisting on using the phrase "Dirty Zionist" gives Israel apologists an easy, way to discredit anti-Zionists.

It gives Jewish people who are moving towards an anti-Zionist position good cause to wonder if they should go there...if they shuold trust gentile anti-Zionists at all(and this is a crucial point,since getting Jewish people to embrace anti-Zionism means convincing them that they can, for once, trust gentiles, even progressive gentiles, to protect them in the crunch(as we didn't in the 1930's).

And it's not even as if the phrase itself carries any special rhetorical power.  Fighting for the right to say "dirty Zionist" is not revolutionary...it's really, at the root, a defense of revolutionary indiscipline and indulgence.

And as to your question, I wouldn't object to calling an scumbag a scumbag.  It's just that the use of "dirty" in this context that I and the other progressives have objected to.  Nothing we've said is any threat to the growth of anti-Zionism.


Catchfire
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Joined: Apr 16 2003

I find this conversation increasingly unproductive (and I find gratuitous nested quotations oppressive). As far as I can tell, we've come to a consensus regarding practice, if not rationale. For those who wish to further beat this dead horse, or persist in their stubbornness to listen and respect the opinions and lived experiences of others, there is another thread open for that express purpose. I urge those interested to continue there and leave this thread to discuss Eden Attias. 


Rebecca West
Online
Joined: Nov 28 2001

M. Spector wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

It was established in the other thread that many babblers consider the phrase "dirty Zionist" to be offensive. That's enough for me to change the thread title.

It's been established in this thread and elsewhere that many babblers don't consider it offensive. What's offensive is the implication that Col. Attias doesn't belong on the IDF Cast Lead Dirty 200 list — that he is in fact a clean Zionist.

Babble has always been at best ambivalent towards anti-Zionism. Now it seems it just takes two or three self-appointed language police to get the moderators to censor condemnations of Zionism. And who benefits, objectively, from such censorship? We all know.

You can't have it both ways.  We get complaints about phrases that rankle.  We consider and respond.  Would you rather we ignore context?  Treat babble as some kind of tabula rasa that provides the freedom to crap upon each other?

You don't need to be Jewish, or Hebrew, to understand that "dirty Zionist" is equated with "dirty Jew".

How much does sensitivity cost? A pound of humility? An admission of bias?

There is no political loss if you choose to be sensitive to cultural and racial history.  It appalls me that such a phrase should be used with no acknowledgement to context.


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